carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 I recently purchased a unit from a grime scene participant. I was not able to pic the unit up so I did not test properly before buying (shame on me). I sent me guys to get the unit. I started the machine when I first got it but did not try the hot water. A few days later I tried to start the unit with a low battery (no go). I charged the battery and ran the unit. With a volt meter I had 12.65 at the battery when running. I'm sure this should be 14 plus. I than notice a black broken wire next to the volt reg. I remove the starter (and broken the internal when trying to remount :(...... and saw the other end of the wire coming from the underside of the flywheel (stator wire). I figure that must be my problem. The wire does not have enough lack to reattach. So I have to remove a rust flywheel (big pain)...... Does this sound right to you guys? I blow the carb fuel solenoid also. However, I cut the plunger until I get all my parts. I can hand crack the engine and runs with no problems. Still same voltage as stated above of course. Since I have a charged battery and have to order parts I figured lets try to get hot water in case I need more parts. I ran the machine with a nozzle and flipped the burner switch (looks like a light in the switch but does not come on). The burner does not fire. Does the system not have enough juice to ignite? If it does how do I troubleshoot ignition? I see fuel in the filter. When the carb fuel solenoid fried could I have fried something in the burner ignition? What and how to test? After all this I realized the starter gear shield was not attached properly and one starter bolt was painted white so someone prior was messing with the starter and probably broke the stator wire when installing the starter since they are so close together. Advise for anybody buying their first hot water machine used. Run the system, put volt meter on the battery when running and look for poor quality repairs (broken wires ect....). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John T 744 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 Unless I read that wrong it looks like you bought a 12v hot water PW. I had 1 12v hot water pw over the years and every now and then I ran into problems where the burner did not run right or run at all. It always seemed to be involved with the burner not getting enough voltage because of the battery not charged enough, a loose wire here and there etc. Even though a 12v hot water skid can be a bit of a space saver I never bought another one. We always use a generator for our hot water PW and without counting wrecking a few generators due to one going bad and others having something fall on them(twice).. They work best. But that doesnt help you with this. I would do some of what ur doing and I would also check and clean and protect with a spray or a grease every wire connection that can be the cause of your problem and then recheck with your voltmeter. I hope your burner didnt go bad. The mechanic pros here can give u some other ideas on what to look for. Good luck Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guy B 70 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 Too many "What If's" to give proper advice. Take it to your local shop have it fixed and be done with it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John T 744 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 Too many "What If's" to give proper advice. Take it to your local shop have it fixed and be done with it.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Probably your best bet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 I'm leaning toward a new motor but I need some understanding to assess the burner. The prior owner whom is liked in this forum stands firm that the unit worked. So, before buying a new or motor or an entire unit I need to know can the 12v burner ignite with 12.65 volts at the battery? I have juice at the starter solenoid of around 12.3 and similar at some module(do not know what it is) on the burner opposite of the fuel pump. If it can ignite with this charge what is the next test point for ignition (switch, ect.....)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 27, 2011 I also just remembered the prior owner has the two wires from the pressure senor jumped. I wonder if they have to be connected to the sensor when hot water is needed. I have no idea why they are jumped.Please look at the pic and share your thoughts. The second pic is where I have 12.3ish volts at the burner unit with the key in the on position from the starter solenoid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 Based on the Hydro Tek troubleshooting doc I need to first check the burner relay. Can someone please point out it's location. CHECK FOR 12VDC AT THE SMALL TERMINALS ON THE BURNER RELAY WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED AND THE BURNER SWITCH IS ON AND THE THERMOSTAT IS TURNED UP. DO YOU GET VOLTAGE? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 Also after checking the relay I have to test the thermostate and pressure switch. Can someone please explain that also. CHECK HEAT SWITCH/THERMOSTAT FOR CONTINUITY (THERMOSTAT MUST BE ADJUSTED TO HIGHEST SETTING BEFORE TESTING – REPLACE IF NO CONTINUITY). CHECK PRESSURE SWITCH FOR CONTINUITY WHEN MACHINE IS RUNNING AND WITH TRIGGER PULLED – REPLACE IF NO CONTINUITY Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Rucker 31 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 Sunday night thanksgiving weekedn. Prob won't get much help tonight. Call russ johnson or hydro tek in the morning. Prob get all ur answers in one phone call to either one. Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guy B 70 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 If you're not proficient with a voltage meter or the layout of a hot water machine, do yourself a favor and take it to a shop before you cost yourself more money. Pressure switch, t-stat, igniter, burner switch, relay all come into play. If you're not sure what is what and how to check it, you can't be talked through it on the computer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 I know where the stuff is and think the relay is on the opposite side of the burner from the fuel pump. I can use the volt meter but the statements from Hydro teks web site are generic. For example, I'm assuming one side of the burner relay should be hot and one not until the key is turned ect..... but the website does not include that info in the troubleshooting doc. I plan on making some calls tomorrow but I was hoping others were bored with the tv and could share the info. It may be clear when I look at it in the morning with some more trail and error testing with the meter. Taking it to a shop to do work is one thing but diagnostic is another and a waste of time. I need to learn the systems. I'm skilled in the absorption of complex thought. So, conversations with experienced people is all I need. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 I'm thinking the jumped pressure switch is faking the system to sending a reply that there is pressure by passing the sensor. I think the problem is at the burner relay or switch in the transformer. The system in my opinion is not getting to the point of pressure or temperature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mathew Johnson 123 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 I have repaired similar issues. If the battery was only charging at less than 14 v, the you had suboptimal voltage available for the burner transformer/igniter to fire the burner. Once you get the engine squared away try this. 1) check for continuity on the thermostat, Turn the temperature up and check the wires on the thermostat, you shoud have continuity with the temperature turned up. 2) It likely has a pressure switch if it is a 5.6 gpm, you usually need to generate minimal pressure to activate this - if there is no nozzle on the gun, the pressure switch may not open the circuit. make sure there is a nozzle in and squeeze the trigger checking continuity of the pressure switch - the pressure switch should show continuity with the trigger pulled and no continuity with the machine in bypass mode. If it has a flow switch - do the same test. 3) If both 1 and 2 are fine, check the transformer - we have a tester we use, but you can open the transformer and test it with a test light.... CAUTION - very high voltage - do not get yourself juiced, If the transformer is bad, simply replace it. If the transformer is OK, then check the fuel selonoid - you can slightly loosen the feed into the burner and pull the trigger. Watch your eyes, it may squirt, If it doesnt pump fuel, check the power feed to the selonoid before you replace it, If there is a loose wire and the selonoid isnt getting juice, you will have replaced it for no reason, I hope this helps, Feel free to call if you have any questions... 607-435-5539 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 Matt good to talk to u. Thanks for helping to narrow the strategy and confirming the engine charging system with less than 14 volts is an issue. I'm buying a new engine and back to trouble shooting the burner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Russ Johnson 141 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 Why on earth do you need a new engine? Fix the charging system on the current one. As far as the burner goes, the first thing I'd check would be the pressure switch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 You have a couple of less frustrating options..... 1. take it to McHenry Equipment in Frederick, MD. They are HydroTek Authorized.... 2. take it to Tom Vogel of ACR Products in Easton, PA. He too is HydroTek Authorized.... Get it looked at and into top shape. Tom will most likely give you solid phone advice but advice is only as good as any description. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mathew Johnson 123 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) Russ, I asked him the same thing, he has some broken wires up under the flywheel and he wants a quick fix. He bought the machine right, It was upgraded to a 5.6 gpm pump with the smaller 16 Hp vanguard instead of the 18 or 21 HP I think he is planning on putting the larger engine, He also has some starter issues, give him a call if you can. You may be able to pick him up as a customer, too far south for me Beth, He knows about McHenries, I did tell him about ACR Products, He has talked with them in the past. Hope you had a a wonderful thanksgiving, Were you contacted about an "expert panel" yet? Matt Edited November 28, 2011 by Mathew Johnson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted November 28, 2011 I'm replacing the motor because the flywheel is extremely rusty and I rather do the repairs in my shop at my leisure. I have a lots of work and want the down time and headache minimized. A back up engine is fine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerry 24 Report post Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) If you want to make that heater reliable, there's a few "bugs" you'll have to remove, even after finding "today's problem" ..and remember.. one problem can cause several effects. and, (just for variety..) if you don't test things properly, you can cause more expensive things to fail.. NEVER test a H.V. ignitor without using a paperclip to make a "gap" across the springs of about 1/2" BEFORE you energize it.. If too big a gap "overloads" the ignitor to failure.. you just spent $150. If it fails on your next job.. you may loose a whole contract = priceless Respect the tech ! ..call one, or see one. BTW.. if you get a 23hp Vanguard.. the 20amp or better charging system will help with reliability on that heater. Otherwise.. UPgrade that relay to a 70 or 80 amp Mini-relay like we use, to reduce the requirement on your charging system. ..and those rusty terminals have to GO ! upgrade to tinned-copper terminals, and use stainless-steel Star-Washers on threaded terminals.. True-Value Hardware stores have LOTS of stainless. click the "like" button if I've helped you at all. Eh? click here to see equipment that does NOT need "upgrading" Edited November 29, 2011 by Jerry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carltoncleans 16 Report post Posted December 1, 2011 My auto mechanic is mounting the new motor today and I'm dropping the trailer off tomorrow morning at McHenry so they can go through the burner hot water system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Chemical Doctor 15 Report post Posted December 1, 2011 Ignitors tend to go bad on 12v machines. When you get it fixed I reccomend using Permatex Battery Protector and Sealer on your battery to keep it from corosion, it can be purchased at most any auto parts store. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerry 24 Report post Posted December 2, 2011 (edited) .. When you get it fixed I reccomend using Permatex Battery Protector and Sealer on your battery to keep it from corosion, it can be purchased at most any auto parts store. I totally agree.. We use it on EVERY battery. ..and stainless steel hardware with "star-washers". Bad connections start at the factory.. or not. ..another reminder that a Really good service department.. does LOTS of upgrades 'n bullet-proofing. Edited December 2, 2011 by Jerry sp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
