8 GPM COLD vs. 5.6 GPM HOT!! ?

[White WASH 14]

Hey Pressure Washing pro's! My name is Shawn, I'm a 10 Yr. owner of a Professional Window Cleaning business in AZ, and I'm moving towards adding pressure washing to my business. I was mainly intending to stick to residential pressure washing, mostly flatwork, and some house washing. But I do clean windows for some commercial property management companies, so if the opportunity arises to bid and land some commercial flatwork I'd like to be able to have the right equipment.

I bought a residential style pressure washer (2.7 gpm, 2700 psi) just to see how well it would work and it was fine for just cleaning some dirty sidewalk, but I'm looking to upgrade to professional equipment. I've been researching every thread I can find on equipment, chemicals, methods, etc. on this and 2 other BBS (pressure washing institute & ptstate), and I have only learned enough to bring up more questions. I'm planning on using a surface cleaner and realize this means a minimum of a 4gpm machine. I understand hot water cleans better than cold. I've been looking at used equipment, new equipment, and trying to determine what the best option is for me to buy right now, with a limited budget. So the title of this thread is the main question I'm looking to get you pro's opinion on.

If you could buy a brand new 8gpm cold water unit (with the ability to add on a burner later) or a brand new 5.6 gpm hot water unit, (mainly for flatwork, keep in mind), regardless of the brand (I'm not trying to start a brand war here), which would you buy and why?! Thanks.

[bks0005 14]

I would by the 5.6 gpm hot because you are doing residential work with the occasional commercial job and parts for the 5.6 are much easier to find and cheaper. I personal I have a 5.6 hot water machine and love it I went from a small 3gpm to this 5.6 and have never looked back. But if you are going for the larger commercial accounts get an 8 gpm or larger hot water unit for those jobs.

[RGilliam 46]

I guess it depends on what you do. We wash trucks, we run all 8gpm skids. As far as brands, there is alot of good ones out there, hydrotek, landa, hotsy, largo, pressure pro, and the list goes on and on. I currently have a couple Tuff PWs, a hydrotek, Landa, and some others I put together. All have held up pretty well. I know alot of guys buy pressure pros. I think they are a little cheaper than most. Hotsy and Landa are pretty expensive. My hydrotek has ran like a tank. If your on a tight budget you may want to look for something used. Especially right now, alot of people trying to sell stuff for extra Christmas money.

[810F250 14]

1)Get the 5.6 hot, with the capacity in the coil to burn more fuel, get one with a 20" diameter coil or bigger,

2)or if your budget will allow a 5.6 with longer coil (more pancakes) for the 8gpm pump.

3)If you went with the 5.6gpm with a smaller than 20" coil you could still join the additional cold water unit you have now or some other , to get to 8 gpm or even more, but remember the exit temps will be much less as compared to the max temp of the 5.6 gpm output.

With the 20" coil and if the burner fan is large enough, you could put a larger fuel nozzle and or increase the fuel pressure (if feasible, consider fuel atomization etc) you would then obtain some more heat output for the same coil.

here is a video I did of how you could join two pressure washers.

Edited December 6, 2011 by 810F250

[Christopher 102]

If you are serious about cleaning commercial properties, you will need hot water to clean up bubble gum and oily/greasy areas. Cold water will not remove gum.

Sure you can try like all the hacks, lowballers and dumbazzes out there with the zero degree nozzles, turbo nozzles and trying all kinds of acids and end up damaging concrete but is that the image you want to portray to your customers?

There are vendors out there that will sell you anything, lie to you to sell you stuff and make it sound that you can clean all types of commercial properties with only cold water when in reality they have never washed commercial properties and do not have a clue so they will lie to you to sell stuff.

You don't need 8gpm, unless it is hot water. You can do fine with 5.5 gpm hot water and do a good job. There are a lot of guys out there with hot water 5.5gpm machines washing acres of concrete a month no problem. Once you get the bigger jobs or more accounts then it is time for a larger machine unless you can afford the 8gpm hot water rig right off the bat but another issue is water supply. Sometimes you will end up at a residential or commercial property that has low water flow and the 8gpm machine uses almost double the water as the 5.5gpm machine so you will have to slow down, wait or shut down for the water supply to catch up so you can start working again where the 5.5gpm machine you will have a better chance of not slowing down most of the time, it still happens but not as often.

There will be a lot of opinions out there, think about what you want to do.

Something also to think about is go out with someone and work with them to see the difference in machines, get prices for the machines and do what you can.

[Guy B 70]

I started with 5.5 gpm hot water washers, after a year or so I found out I needed to speed the process of washing. I switched to 8 gpm units a few years ago and would never go back. I do 90% residential work. So why do I have hot water for residential work? Because I market hot water and then the other 10% that isn't residential pays very, very good. If you don't need hot water.....cut the burner switch off. If you need hot water.....cut the burner switch on. It's really a "No Brainer". It's worked for me. More gpm = faster working speed. Pays for itself in no time.

Landa, Hydro Tek, Alkota, Mi-T-M......All good Washers.

[BlueBliss 14]

I really prefer heat! I'm not in the line of work you're entering, but heat really seems to make a big difference!

[tonyshelton 112]

I have two together hot/cold like Nigel said.

[Guy B 70]

Actually I built a trailer with 1 hot water 8 gpm unit and one 8 gpm cold water unit on it. Then found another trailer set up just like it, and bought that one too. Will I need that kind of output all the time?....No, will I have it when it really counts?..........You Bet Cha!!

[Jerry 24]

Shawn,

you have a good handfull of suggestions going for you here, from C'cleaners, like you want to be.

I'm an equipment guy, so here's my side of the coin..

1. when the cleaning gets tough, the temperature is turned up, and/or the pressure is set to full,

..or, you'll be in for a whole lot of chemical expense, and waste-water-management.

..and water-supply is a problem at the damndest times, in the most expensive ways.

a Turbo-nozzle might be the cool-tool where you need it, and or the extra heat.

you need to Know chemicals, just don't let them "abuse you".

2. if you're going to add "Enviro-Friendly" ..as homeowners almost always prefer,

you'd better watch you chemical use.

3. if you stress your funds in an attempt to go for "mega-power", without saving a little for the "unforeseen",

you'll be sorry.

4. certification in paver-sealing can be a GREAT jump-start to your venture,

if you're looking for a gimmick, or niche, to suppliment your "siding" experience. Call Seal n Lock

5. I said "siding" experience, because you are already an expert in glass, and painted surfaces..

be confident that flatwork is easier than trying not to damage a surface whilst you try not to fall from it. EH?

6. please consider my specialty before you invest in Reclaim equipment..

especially sinse you can call me for the detail in technical assistance at any time,

..and you'll get straight explanation that will save you time, money, customers, or all 3..

Otherwise.. got forth, and prosper.

You're in good hands, and community here.

:{)

Edited December 6, 2011 by Jerry
sp.

[Guy B 70]

Best hot water skid on the market hands down....Landa SLT8.

Cold water would be a Pressure Pro 8 gpm

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[John.Harper 14]

yea i would definently get the hot water machine theres nothing that the 8 gpm could really outperform it in and it would be cheaper and easier to transition it to a larger gpm with hot water capability .. some people will tell you differently but look around for something used .. someone going out of business or something like that .. maybe craigslist or ebay and you can save yourself alot of money and with a little bit of work youll have something if it doesnt work out you business wise could still make some money on .. if you buy new you will never be able to recoup that investment

[White WASH 14]

1)Get the 5.6 hot, with the capacity in the coil to burn more fuel, get one with a 20" diameter coil or bigger,

2)or if your budget will allow a 5.6 with longer coil (more pancakes) for the 8gpm pump.

3)If you went with the 5.6gpm with a smaller than 20" coil you could still join the additional cold water unit you have now or some other , to get to 8 gpm or even more, but remember the exit temps will be much less as compared to the max temp of the 5.6 gpm output.

With the 20" coil and if the burner fan is large enough, you could put a larger fuel nozzle and or increase the fuel pressure (if feasible, consider fuel atomization etc) you would then obtain some more heat output for the same coil.

Nigel,

1)How do I know the diameter of the coil?

2)My budget depends somewhat on who I buy the system from... Here's the two machines I was choosing between thus far, but have continuted to look around after hearing bad reviews at this distributor's communication & handling fees for phone call orders (Envirospec).This is the 5.6 Hot Water Unit (deal ends in a few weeks) (the last one in the list 8.6 gpm).

3) Cool Video Nigel. Thanks for sharing.

Mr. Jerry Sirocco,I can see that you are a very experienced manufacturer. I called your company today for prices on bulldog units as they look great on your site, but there's no prices on the website of course.

Thanks also for the detailed info you posted on WCR yesterday. I do have some questions about it though.

You said the following:

"1. friends don't let friends buy pumps with unloaders build into the head of the pump. ..they are more difficult to troubleshoot,..they are more expensive to rebuild,..the rebuild does NOT last as long with the unloader in it,..they will NEVER be "Long-Term-Low-Cost."

2. Direct drive pumps.. were designed to be pressure fed..they can last 4 years between seal kits, IF plumbed with a high-volume bypass, ..and IF properly treated...that's only about $275 in pump parts n labor in 5 years...just keep your fingers crossed you can separate pump from motor when you need to.But.. Running more than 50ft of suppply hose....or using cheap 5/8" id hose instead of contractors' grade 3/4" hose..I've seen direct drive pumps get 2 years on a set of seals, but the average is only 12 months,even if you never let it overheat in bypass (with the trigger-gun off).On "repair day", expect to also repair shaft-key damage,and replace a check valve set every other time.. that's over $1000 for 5 years, IF the pump isn't tossed into the "bone-yard" before.I didn't even add the possible cavitation-damaged ceramic plungers or cracked head at a valve-seat.... that can be another $200-400. each time !Belt drive..I've seen 5 years out of a set of seals, used several days per week,but 3 to 4 years is more likely,to a system that isn't always getting the "perfect water supply".Unloader-Valve replacements every 4 to 5 years.. 3 years is most common.Shaft repairs are only a "direct drive problem".. but do add a set of belts.Cost for 5 years, on average..$ 375. including labor...and the pump can last 12 to 20 years, depending on how you treat it.These numbers are based on a 4gpm pump with competitive parts pricing..Newer models are coming out with more "model-specific" kits..with "elevated prices". Some are now double or triple the above costs !..Stick with the AR and Comet models..Especially Comet FW, HW and RW series, AR's SXM, RK and XW series, orGeneral's good ol' TS2021 and EZ series are fine,..just don't let'em run low on oil.. aluminum-alloy is NOT as heat tolerant as forged bronze rods.Also,I didn't add unloader valves to the above numbers..high-speed pumps eat TWICE the unloader-valves, or more ! Cavitation KILLS !

3. NEVER buy with a built-in unloader valve..they are made to TAKE your money. period.And..if you "invest in" belt-drive, like you should..MAKE SURE it has an external bypass hose,MORE than 2 feet long, and MORE than 1/2" id.We use 5/8" x 5ft on 4gpm systems..and seals last several years, because you can set the wand down for a few minutes.. without overheating the seals."

MY RESPONSE: So what I got out of that was...

1. don't buy a machine that has the unloader built into the pump. How would I know if that were the case on any machine I were looking at buying? For instance could you tell if that were the case on either of the machines pictured above?

2. don't waste your money on a direct drive PW, spend the extra money up front to save money in the long run, get a Belt drive PW.

3. NEVER buy with a built-in unloader valve.. ( I don't know what this means! Again, how can I determine if this is the case when trying to shop online?)

Thanks.

Edited December 7, 2011 by White WASH
pics not attached correctly

[Chris Tharpe 40]

Your fine on both of those machines pictured concerning belt/ gear drive and unloaders.

[Jerry 24]

Shawn,

Chris is right.. both of those systems have plumbed unloaders..

This allows them to bypass back to a holding tank when the trigger-gun is off.

When the unloader is molded in to the pump, you cannot remove the internal bypass,

which GREATLY limits how long you can leave the trigger-gun off, without overheating the water-seals.

Bypass overheat is the #1 killer of seals.

(.. not fur-hunters with baseball bats.)

[810F250 14]

Hey Shawn, if you look at my video again,

the first pressure washer with the brown pump and gear box (unit 1), has the built in unloader on the pump head that Jerry is talking about, which does kill pump seals when left in bypass. (meaning the machine is running but the trigger gun is not depressed, the water that the pump is pumping has to go somewhere,.....

If you look at the second unit in my video with the blue pump (belt drive) (unit 2), when the unit 2 is running and the trigger is not pulled the water is flowing from a clear tubing, this is the bypass water that you cannot see in unit 1. This flowing water from the clear tubing in unit 2 is usually plumbed back to your holding tank (but I just had it running to the ground in the video)

Path of water: (unit 1) water enters the pump on the suction side (where red inlet hose is) and the pumped to the outlet (black hose) but cannot get out because the trigger gun is closed, the water has to go somewhere so it is re-circulated back to the inlet, and this continuous cycling of water with in the pump body develops heat and the heat destroys pumps seals.

Now if you look closely at the video at 0.25 seconds (pause it) you would see a black connection to the right side of the pump, this is called a thermal relief valve.. and it is connected to the inlet bank of the pump head, it is designed to open at about 140 to 150 degrees F to help protect the seals from getting overheated. But even with that setup of unit 1, it can still be improved (would not explain now, but unit 2 is the best option with respect to plumbing to protect the pump seals)

Edited December 7, 2011 by 810F250
spelling

[Scott Stone 604]

oh, how I hate thermal relief valves. i have never had one last, and think they are nothing more then a cash transplant device. transplanting my cash into a manufacturers pocket.

Personally, I prefer the 5.6 machines, but I also am always carrying water, and need to conserve.

[810F250 14]

Scott, the TRV is not all that great I agree, only had it open once, and the water was only in bypass for a minute, but the inlet water temp was above ambient.

.

.

.

With respect to the heating coil Shawn, ask the manufacturer or reseller:

the size and length of coil, (there is a manufacturer chart for the quantity of burning fuel in boiler, have to look for one)

if it cold water wrapped,

what is the set fuel pressure and nozzle size the machine is shipped with, (what is the maximum fuel that can successfully be burned in combustion chamber, remember if you are increasing the heat output you may have to look at changing the temp control devices too)

Edited December 7, 2011 by 810F250
sp

[James 625]

Good thread

[RSuds 24]

Hit water is good for concrete, for removing grease gum and oil. Also it helps with some other stuff but with the right chemicals you can clean a lot of stuff with cold water. We do a lot of houses and buildings and have I have more 10 gal. Cold water machines then hot water. It depends on what you want to clean. We do have hot water but hardly use it. For apartments and houses you do not need it. For shopping centers and gas stations you do need hot water.

[jaysonrover 15]

hI,

Mind if I ask what gpm of each of your units is? I am thinking about getting another unit and wondering if I should just go with another 4gpm belt drive unit or step it up and get a 5.5? any ideas and suggestions would be great. And how did you set it up? thanks from Canada... :

[810F250 14]

hI,

Mind if I ask what gpm of each of your units is? I am thinking about getting another unit and wondering if I should just go with another 4gpm belt drive unit or step it up and get a 5.5? any ideas and suggestions would be great. And how did you set it up? thanks from Canada... :

Who was this question directed to Jason W