plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 First happy new year to everyone and a prosperous one at that. About my ideal stain, I have used quite a few different stains over the years and second guessed and triple guessed them while logging in my experience. I probably started like everyone else, laying down the stain without much thought for the actual chemistry behind it. Now after doing it for 7 years under this latest venture, and many years prior to that during the 90s, I have finally come to the conclusion as to what I want and what works and why. This will surely be different for everyone, everyone has different experience and different climates and preperation. But what I have found out is that I need a diamond hard surface near the top of the wood. I am not talking a 'film former' but the first few mils has to be occupied by a hard drying resin, no flexibility, no linseed modified alkyds or just linseed oils. I do like the conditioning of mineral oils that dive into the wood - but in the end I need a stain that has a hard surface in a minimal amount of time. Something that the old tung oil modified alkyds of the past did well - or just plain synthetic alkyds. I know many have talked about the inability to maintain a harder resin finish like ATO of the past - but I have found that stains that replace the majority of mineral spirits with mineral oil - that the top coat of alkyd is not as overbearing and not as film forming and therefore easier to maintain. I need that hard surface to lock in the mineral oils from flowing out, keep the pigments in place protecting the wood, and keep the mildewcides locked in better. As well a harder surface makes it much harder for dirt and contaminants to attach to, such that it all washes away easily come the next rain storm, thus prolonging the life of the stain. Those are my findings - and that's what I am after now when searching for a stain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Let me know if you find stain nirvana. Since the VOC laws changed in 2005, I don't think it exists....at least not in our state. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 I haven't found it but I am close. TWP 200 is not recommended on decks, but if you are willing to stay off a deck for 2-3 weeks, it is a perfect stain. I didn't realize this, but it's often compared to readyseal because of it's mineral oil content - but what I found out when using and reading the side of the can - it also has a hard drying resin in it. If you put that stain in a cup and let it sit for a few days - the top will dry out even though it's on top of mineral oil. Believe it or not - I had much worse drying issues with the 500 series, even though that's meant for decks! So I will try the 1500 series and see how that works. But you can reduce the 200 series up to 30% and still be VOC legal! And that may be the ticket. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 James 624 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Dan try bakers, 200 series with the spirits your looking for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Do you use that stain, Jim? I was going to try the 1500 - and see if that was a customer friendly stain out of the can. All I need is a thinned 200 series and I think I have it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Scott Paul 164 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Bakers is not 250 VOC compliant from what I understand. Taking TWP's Radcon formula and adding mineral spirits brings it down to 550 level. I could be wrong though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 I just love these wood geek posts. Makes my heart all warm and fuzzy. I can almost smell the stain in the air...... Beth :sunshine: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Daniel, A mineral oil for wood conditioning covered by a rock hard top resin might be terrific the first time applied. Relative ease and cost effective maintenance might be a deal breaker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Rick, Depends on the ratio of drying and non-drying oils as to the ease of maintenance. Personally I don't think VOC laws will ever allow us to achieve stain nirvana with oils. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 3, 2012 Daniel,A mineral oil for wood conditioning covered by a rock hard top resin might be terrific the first time applied. Relative ease and cost effective maintenance might be a deal breaker. I think you are right based on experience with the tung oil based stains of the past like ATO. But here is where I think you are wrong - a product like that in the past was something like 60% thinner and 40% resins. Where as TWP200 from my cup experiment looks like 90% mineral oil and 10% resins. I tried like heck to get patches on my deck to form a 'film' - let me tell you it was dang hard!!! I put two drenching coats separated by 24 hours - and only small areas over that was I even able to get it to form a surface film. So what this tells me - is now I have my diamond hard coat - but since it's not just resin and thinner of the past - there is much less resin than in the past - and so I think the deck will just degrade very evenly and ready for maintenance in 2 years. But we'll have to wait and see - so far this is the best product that's ever gone on my own deck. As to Beth - she is absolutely right about the ratios - the ratio is heavy on mineral oil and light on curing oil - which means it will form a very thin and even layer that will degrade evenly for an easier maintenance. Stains like ATO if you weren't careful put loads of tung oil resins - too much - but that was the technology at the time - less resins and more thinner would have just made a splotchy appearance. Where I think Beth is wrong, firstly a mineral oil and curing resin product which we've seen since woodrich has had one faulty premise. The curing oil was linseed and/or linseed modified alkyds - I think this is the wrong approach for decks, I think not only does mineral oil get in the way of polymerisation - linseeds are just way too soft unless used in conjunction with lots of pigments like in a semi or solid/opaque stain - it's better suited for vertical siding where it won't have foot traffic. Another thing I think Beth is wrong with is how these oils have cured and their longevity due to VOC changes. I have a local manufacture in my town called California Paints - and they manufacture a whole line of stains that are excellent. Although more old school, no use of mineral oil. They had the same issues with drying and longevity with the 2005 VOC laws - but they changed the ingredients and there are no more issues, other than the fact it's harder to spread. What I think is the issue, is that even though for a paint company California is relatively small, compared to these stain manufactuers they are huge and have deep deep pockets. This chemist explained to me that in order for these new stains to work well with these voc laws they had to change the 'driers' in the stain - the problem is that these new driers are wicked expensive, but this company can afford to sacrifice profit margin in order to maintain their reputation. I am having my doubts that these smaller stain companies are willing or even able to swallow the costs of using these more expensive ingredients. I have personally witnessed this newly formulated stain go on hardwood, went on thick, but over a couple of days was able to fully absorb into a hardwood deck on it's own and cured out hard without any surface film - I couldn't believe it when I saw it!!! Other than a 2-3 day wait time on hardwoods, it had the look and feel of the old stains and it was low VOC at the same time! And I've seen another customers deck {which I don't maintain} being maintained with this same product without stripping - and still not much surface buildup. So I think oil stains can work in this VOC age - just that we deal with smaller companies that in my opinion are too small to front all the additional costs to make these stains work well. TWP has proven to me that it has the legs to stand on and put the right ingredients in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Jake Clark 17 Report post Posted January 4, 2012 Hello Dan, Thank you for your comments concerning oil based stains. I know where you are coming from. Matt and Jack are putting on a great seminar in Albany and ACR is doing the same with both presenting avenues for growing your business. Peirce Fitchet of Ready Seal and myself of Armstrong Stain will be at both and we would happily entertain any and all suggestions on how we might improve our stain line. Both venues, I understand, are an easy drive for you so I hope to see you there. May 2012 be your best year yet, Jake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted January 4, 2012 I think you are right based on experience with the tung oil based stains of the past like ATO. But here is where I think you are wrong - a product like that in the past was something like 60% thinner and 40% resins. Where as TWP200 from my cup experiment looks like 90% mineral oil and 10% resins. I tried like heck to get patches on my deck to form a 'film' - let me tell you it was dang hard!!! I put two drenching coats separated by 24 hours - and only small areas over that was I even able to get it to form a surface film. So what this tells me - is now I have my diamond hard coat - but since it's not just resin and thinner of the past - there is much less resin than in the past - and so I think the deck will just degrade very evenly and ready for maintenance in 2 years. But we'll have to wait and see - so far this is the best product that's ever gone on my own deck. As to Beth - she is absolutely right about the ratios - the ratio is heavy on mineral oil and light on curing oil - which means it will form a very thin and even layer that will degrade evenly for an easier maintenance. Stains like ATO if you weren't careful put loads of tung oil resins - too much - but that was the technology at the time - less resins and more thinner would have just made a splotchy appearance. Where I think Beth is wrong, firstly a mineral oil and curing resin product which we've seen since woodrich has had one faulty premise. The curing oil was linseed and/or linseed modified alkyds - I think this is the wrong approach for decks, I think not only does mineral oil get in the way of polymerisation - linseeds are just way too soft unless used in conjunction with lots of pigments like in a semi or solid/opaque stain - it's better suited for vertical siding where it won't have foot traffic. Another thing I think Beth is wrong with is how these oils have cured and their longevity due to VOC changes. I have a local manufacture in my town called California Paints - and they manufacture a whole line of stains that are excellent. Although more old school, no use of mineral oil. They had the same issues with drying and longevity with the 2005 VOC laws - but they changed the ingredients and there are no more issues, other than the fact it's harder to spread. What I think is the issue, is that even though for a paint company California is relatively small, compared to these stain manufactuers they are huge and have deep deep pockets. This chemist explained to me that in order for these new stains to work well with these voc laws they had to change the 'driers' in the stain - the problem is that these new driers are wicked expensive, but this company can afford to sacrifice profit margin in order to maintain their reputation. I am having my doubts that these smaller stain companies are willing or even able to swallow the costs of using these more expensive ingredients. I have personally witnessed this newly formulated stain go on hardwood, went on thick, but over a couple of days was able to fully absorb into a hardwood deck on it's own and cured out hard without any surface film - I couldn't believe it when I saw it!!! Other than a 2-3 day wait time on hardwoods, it had the look and feel of the old stains and it was low VOC at the same time! And I've seen another customers deck {which I don't maintain} being maintained with this same product without stripping - and still not much surface buildup. So I think oil stains can work in this VOC age - just that we deal with smaller companies that in my opinion are too small to front all the additional costs to make these stains work well. TWP has proven to me that it has the legs to stand on and put the right ingredients in. Gee.....my posts were pretty short. Not sure how you gleaned so much from them. Bottom line, is that numerous ( not just one) stain manufacturers began to have the same problem once they had to go to lower VOC formulas. We no longer use CATO for example. I used to be a wonderful product. Now it is nothing but problematic. It has drying issues, it stays sticky and it tens to have overall mildew growth rapidly. Before the VOC changes, you didn't see that here. I stand by what I have seen in the field. I have applied (yes me) more gallons of stain than I can count and have watched performance of these products. I'll never be a fan of acrylics on horizontal surfaces, but I have to say oils on horizontals don't perform the way they used to. Beth p.s. last year we switched our deck to TWP to see how it would hold up. Thumbs down. Armstrong Clark held up far better. We also see very good results with Sikkens SRD, but it not our go to product. Ah...and one other thing...I spoke to the fine folks who make TWP....your drying oil is at between 5-7%. That is MUCH lower than AC, and too far below Sikkens SRD to even think about. At 5 to 7% you are getting a very superficial film, only enough to hold in the pigment, but it will stay soft. The higher the drying oil (the lower the non-drying oils), the harder the cure....I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 5, 2012 Beth there are drying oils and there are drying oils - I don't have experience with the entire TWP line yet. But the difference I am seeing is the 'natural' oil resins or even the 'natural' oil alkyd modified resins remaining soft - versus the synthetic alkyds drying rock hard. I actually don't want a high content of surface oils - if the resins are really rock hard, I don't think it needs to be that much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Celeste 341 Report post Posted January 5, 2012 We have the TWP 1500 on our chicken coop. Application was a little strange (since being used to "good" oils) but thus far it is holding up extremely well for Round One - even under regular chicken poop bombs. As with most stains, the test will be with the maintenance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted January 5, 2012 ... As with most stains, the test will be with the maintenance. +1. Yup. A wood restoration business is built on repeat business, not a one time shine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted January 5, 2012 Celeste - pushing TWP200 around is like pushing tinted transmission fluid. Definitely not a stain I would use for normal deck work - perhaps if it's thinned it will be ok. I am interested in the 1500 series and will try that next. I used the 500 series on a customer's deck this past summer - heard about the drying issues, so I thinned it and added jap drier. I didn't like the fact that any remnant on the can never seemed to dry even 3 months after the fact {thank god I thinned it!} It had the exact same coverage that I am use to - but what I did like, was that it was a 1 pass application - I haven't seen that in a long long long time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 David Phillips 14 Report post Posted January 16, 2012 Hey Scott, as of May 2011 Bakers was VOC<250. Unfortunately, keeping with the theme of this thread, it is no longer the Baker's Gray Away I have loved for so many years. Dan, don't stop wishing on that star just yet... your wish might just come true. :zipit: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted April 14, 2012 Hey Scott, as of May 2011 Bakers was VOC<250.Unfortunately, keeping with the theme of this thread, it is no longer the Baker's Gray Away I have loved for so many years. Dan, don't stop wishing on that star just yet... your wish might just come true. :zipit: Oh, yeah? Got a recommendation? My plan is for the 1500 series this year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First happy new year to everyone and a prosperous one at that.
About my ideal stain, I have used quite a few different stains over the years and second guessed and triple guessed them
while logging in my experience.
I probably started like everyone else, laying down the stain without much thought for the actual chemistry behind it. Now after
doing it for 7 years under this latest venture, and many years prior to that during the 90s, I have finally come to the conclusion
as to what I want and what works and why.
This will surely be different for everyone, everyone has different experience and different climates and preperation. But what I have
found out is that I need a diamond hard surface near the top of the wood. I am not talking a 'film former' but the first few mils has
to be occupied by a hard drying resin, no flexibility, no linseed modified alkyds or just linseed oils. I do like the conditioning of mineral
oils that dive into the wood - but in the end I need a stain that has a hard surface in a minimal amount of time. Something that the old
tung oil modified alkyds of the past did well - or just plain synthetic alkyds.
I know many have talked about the inability to maintain a harder resin finish like ATO of the past - but I have found that stains that replace
the majority of mineral spirits with mineral oil - that the top coat of alkyd is not as overbearing and not as film forming and therefore easier
to maintain.
I need that hard surface to lock in the mineral oils from flowing out, keep the pigments in place protecting the wood, and keep the mildewcides
locked in better. As well a harder surface makes it much harder for dirt and contaminants to attach to, such that it all washes away easily
come the next rain storm, thus prolonging the life of the stain.
Those are my findings - and that's what I am after now when searching for a stain.
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