FREE Roof Cleaning Certifications?? Say it can't be so..........

[tonyshelton 112]

I don't recall mentioning anywhere in this thread, the other threads here and on *** or my email snippet anything about Ron specifically other than with regard to the certs. So, if we could...let's drop that premise completely.

If you go back and read all the pages, threads....the only people that have been vehement about their positions have been for the certs.

You left out the rest of the story...

The guy now has an Org cert and logo to prove it. It cost him the membership dues and the training costs. He now has a cert that he can brandish on his website and direct his customers to....as almost every single supporter of cert say they do....and note to the customer "CPW is not certified" or "I'm the only certified roof cleaner in the area". Not only that, The ***** is now going to get involved in the marketing....directly promoting cert holders in local markets.

Now, after losing a few jobs, wasting many hours of my life explaining why I'm actually more experienced, more qualified and that cert test was filled with nonsense questions, I finally surrender to the whole thing and join the ***** and buy me a cert logo and pay my "Union" dues every year and keep my mouth shut.

With the story finished, please explain to me who benefited from the certification process?

Seems to me it was the *****, the people that offer certification approved training and people like Bill Booz that want to create things like this to further their own career. My wallet is a bit lighter every year and my local customers have not gained a single thing.

This whole thing is not only a cloaked membership drive, it uses contractors and attacks peoples income to arm twist them into joining.

It's a bad way to have started the third redux of the *****.....look at the divisiveness it's already caused. They created a whole new group of people. There once was just people that joined and people that didn't....this will cause people to publicly campaign against them because of the certs.

Premise dropped.

The org membership and the certs are not a lot of money to begin with first off. Training isn't too much either, less than $350 at the best school in the world!! (I can't help myself lol)

New guys, especially residential, are paying between $150 and $4k for lettering and vehicle wraps already just to get started in many cases, not to mention the cost of the equipment, insurance, etc. I know a few hundred dollars is not chump change, but I doubt you will be able to find a single new contractor who has spent $1000 on training that won't say it was worth every dime.

Regarding competition: I only have three direct competitors here in Las Vegas who are doing in the millions. One of them is the past president of NAFA. How many times do you think he slaps that NAFA certification up in the face of my customers? Who knows? Who cares? I sell my own product on its own merits.

I guess you could call my competitor and ask him how many times the NAFA certs have taken a deal from me. If it has ever happened I am not aware of it.

I think you are shadow boxing an opponent that isn't there.

I would like to challenge you to document a case where the scenario you described has happened. Usually a certification or a membership, is used to close a deal quickly and put the customer at ease, not pit yourself against the competition in an ongoing bid battle. Personally I think the valuing the certification on that basis alone is a bit of selling hype that is unproven.

Maybe there will be some isolated instances of what you describe. Customers aren't stupid. Most customers aren't going to give a flip about certifications. But every now and then you will run across that regimented government employee who needs a certification to make him fill better about his purchase. For those customers I'd recommend a big $5.00 sticker that says "Cyclone Certified". :)

Sometimes that's all it takes for a customer to justify their purchase in their own mind.

On the other hand, many pressure washers, especially those coming from the regimented background of government or union employment, feel the need to have that certificate on their resume.

In their minds it creates a sense of accomplishment and gives motivation.

See, there's a lot more to this than simply "one guy trying to say he's better than the other".

Barry, if you were to ever join the *****, with your personality, I would hope that you would join for the purpose of giving back to the industry that provides a living for you. You don't seem like the type who would ever join because you were "forced" to by a competitor.

Sometimes being a part of something that has such potential to do good in the end (even if it is just on the environmental end, in your opinion) has its own rewards that are more satisfying than the financial rewards.

Personally I'd like the membership to be driven by volunteerism, especially in these early building stages. And that is what I'm seeing much more than any desire to just "get certified".

You would really be surprised how many volunteers we have working on the EPA issue. I'm shocked to be honest. I think that is why the ***** is so strong so early on.

The members have realized it's not all about "bennies", and I'm proud to be associated with them.

[James 625]

I have had people inquire about the BDA today ! Life's a bleach !

[Cyclone 25]

Barry, if you were to ever join the *****, with your personality, I would hope that you would join for the purpose of giving back to the industry that provides a living for you.

What is "the industry"? Sometimes, I get the impression that some people use that phrase to mean Org. I give plenty...always have. People don't need to be in an Org to help people. There is a world of people outside of these forums, Org's and roundtables that use a phone to associate and help each other. Just a few weeks ago, I offered to help people with the EPA issue.....I called you on the phone to do it.

I owe the industry nothing...The industry didn't pay for my equipment or market my business.

[tonyshelton 112]

The industry is what puts food on your table.

Family farms used to be a big industry, regulated very little and left to thrive.

They failed to come together and defend the value of their enterprise and now they are practically gone because the larger corporate farms banned together and lobbied them out of existence. The ones that are left just barely scrape along.

That is exactly what is happening to your industry, my industry, our industry.

The industry is not an org. An org is a tool the industry can use.

[NJWashingGuy 31]

The industry is what puts food on your table.

Family farms used to be a big industry, regulated very little and left to thrive.

They failed to come together and defend the value of their enterprise and now they are practically gone because the larger corporate farms banned together and lobbied them out of existence. The ones that are left just barely scrape along.

That is exactly what is happening to your industry, my industry, our industry.

The industry is not an org. An org is a tool the industry can use.

Tony,

Would Ron be one of those large corporate powerwashing firms looking to take over??? He is well on his way...

[NJWashingGuy 31]

Michael, can we put the vendor issue on the backburner for a while and come back to it later and discuss the other issue. I'll be glad to re-address the vendor issue later. I'd like some time to research the law on this a little deeper than what I already did back during the time of the old *****.

Would you mind elaborating on: "who are they to certify anyone??" and "I don't believe in certs for many reasons."

so we can see if there is any common ground?

lets see an answer about the Carlos and Doug issue, then we can move on.....

[tonyshelton 112]

Tony,

Would Ron be one of those large corporate powerwashing firms looking to take over??? He is well on his way...

On his way how? According to the PWNA he doesn't even have a business?

Could you lay out any possible scenario where Ron could "take over"? Give me a scenario with some numbers and I'll consider that possibility.

lets see an answer about the Carlos and Doug issue, then we can move on.....

I told you I will research that.

If you are unprepared to continue on with the certification issue I will give you time also.

If you insist on dealing with the other issue first I will need a few days. (you know what's coming, get ready for a boatload of references and links)

Right now I've got a dance to go to with the most beautiful daughter in the world (Can I say that?)

[NJWashingGuy 31]

On his way how? According to the PWNA he doesn't even have a business?

Could you lay out any possible scenario where Ron could "take over"? Give me a scenario with some numbers and I'll consider that possibility.

I told you I will research that.

If you are unprepared to continue on with the certification issue I will give you time also.

If you insist on dealing with the other issue first I will need a few days. (you know what's coming, get ready for a boatload of references and links)

Right now I've got a dance to go to with the most beautiful daughter in the world (Can I say that?)

i don't think that i am unprepared for the argument, I have been stating facts and my opinion on the cert issue for some time, not just on here. Enjoy the dance, we can continue over the weekend, I am watching the final episode of gold rush, the girls are asleep.

[Cyclone 25]

The industry is what puts food on your table.

Family farms used to be a big industry, regulated very little and left to thrive.

They failed to come together and defend the value of their enterprise and now they are practically gone because the larger corporate farms banned together and lobbied them out of existence. The ones that are left just barely scrape along.

That is exactly what is happening to your industry, my industry, our industry.

The industry is not an org. An org is a tool the industry can use.

You are mixing up Org's and Certs....but, neither are "the industry".

The industry doesn't put food on my table, I do. I am able to do it because of customers that hire me. They hire me because they heard of me, seen my truck or seen my website. I've never heard a customer ask about "the industry", Org or Cert....not one single time.

The Org's are a tool....I agree. Unfortunately, not one has ever been used properly. Like all bureaucracies, the purpose of their existence always evolves into sustaining the bureaucracy. This cert program is another example of that. As I pointed out, the only people I see benefiting from me getting certified is the bureaucracy.

The Org's gave us Robert H....They gave us "cosmetic" cleaning and they labeled us polluters. I know the ***** has flip flopped on this, that you and I have always opposed it but at one time, the previous Directors thought it was a good idea. That's what concerns me the most about these certs. Nobody will answer direct questions, share the standards or open this to public comment.

Are we seeing history repeat itself?

Bill Booz 09-09-2012 Post #34

I am entrusted to this committee due to my experience and dedication. Price looks like it is going to be around $149, but that is still in discussion as well. Some of that money will be used to educate the public about *****'s standards and also we intend to have an OSHA and EPA co-op, in the long term plan, and that will raise our recognition considerably. Also we will not have a ladder safety class so you should take OSHA's if you want one. We will have no classes, (also explained in depth above) and personally I hope you will seek an OSHA audit and training.

Bill Booz 09-09-2012 Post #43

We still have work to do, but we are very confident that what we are doing and the ones that are ready are the best that can be offered, and they are designed to be amendable and have continuing efforts through teamwork across MANY organizations. We will take this to other entities such as OSHA, and the EPA to ensure that we are also complying with existing laws, we do intend to seek grants to have studies performed by third party universities or research facilities to better understand the environmental impact of what we do.

That's all we need.....The EPA crawling around roof cleaning. Someone over there needs to reign this dude in.

[Timo 25]

That stuff in red is a bit discomforting.

[John T 744]

That stuff in red is a bit discomforting.

You read my mind Tim. I was thinking the exact same thing. I know you don't care for the idea about this Vegas Event that where doing where we are going to ask these EPA guys questions that we have. I completely understand why some may not like that.

What's disturbing to me in the red writing above is guys Like Tony ************** and a few others were taking sniper shots at us for even bringing the EPA in to ask them the tough questions when all along the *****'s idea is to Deal with the EPA themselves.

Seems hypocritical now reading that red writing coming from a ***** BOD member. I'm not even faulting Billy Booze for that because he never posted anywhere taking shots at us as if there goal was never to consult with the EPA.

What where seeing now is the ***** has a "Double standard" since Tony is on there Enviro committee and he was rocket firing at us with this Vegas Event mainly over anything EPA.

I can say that Barry has always been consistent in his assessments.

Some of these other guys?? The red print now says volumes.

[Guy B 70]

Guy,

I saw what you wrote so I will respond as gingerly as possible. This thread has obviously hit a nerve to some. I find it funny what you wrote on this post but it was screen shot and somehow ends up on your President's BBS. Really Guy I think you and his friends may have to rethink how you want to play ball. He can make 1000 you tube videos calling me out. I dont care. He can try to discredit me. I dont care. I know the trusth and nothing he does or says will change that. I am a moderator here and respected by many more than you will ever know. I try to hold up my end on standards and practices. I also have tried to stay ethically correct. I have had many phone calls from respeccted contractors and I have assured them that I would leave them out of this situation. I have done that and I will continue to do so. Life is a two way street. Remember that. You can't expect people to get blasted and then in turn when its you you cry wolf or whine about some wrong doing. This kind of sounds like a phone call I had with your president. If you and the BOD want opinions or help I will give it. Here is my suggestion. Close the doors. Disban the Org. End it all.

Can I be any more clear then that? What has transpired from jealously and ignorance is unreal. I make an opinionated statement and your so called leader, his friends and the BOD chose to make it personal and attack me. Questions are avoided. You cannot manipulate people but so far. You cant use the friendship card when its suiting then pull the card when its not. Your president calls people out on video and you sit back and do nothing. Maybe I am not worthy of the Org. Maybe I should go into pig farming and start my own organization.

Rob, if you're insinuating that I passed some information or a screenshot to Ron I will tell you here and now I did not, it's not my style and I don't operate like that. Seeing that there is no way to prove myself I can only give you my word on that, seeing the tone of your post I doubt highly that you would believe me anyway although I've never given you any reason to believe otherwise.

I have no control over what people do Rob, I do my best to stay out of other peoples crap. Your Leader, Your Boss....really Rob you're gonna start that again. I haven't done or said anything against you....ever. If you want to bait me or classify me then I guess you've ended the mutual respect we've had for each other, because I haven't done that to you.

Struck a nerve? About Certifications? No, not in the least. Being blind sided with attacks, snide remarks, and down right hypocrisy of nuclear proportions did strike a nerve. Evidently there is some notion that because I'm a board Member or Moderator I'm supposed to be PC and not respond to attacks on myself or speak my mind....That I assure you will never happen.

I tried my best to keep this trash off of TGS, Beth knows this, and I tried because of the respect I have for Beth & Rod, TGS and it's Members....And the payback was disrespect to me. I'm not talking about hiding anything, I'm talking about the BS that would surely follow this trash....as it did. I guess the call went out to come over here and jump on the ***** because Ron is President, because you guys sure did show up all of a sudden. And all of you have an axe to grind, not with the *****, Not With The Certifications, Not With Me, but with Ron. You just hide behind the other crap.

I get it, you don't think the Certifications are worth the paper it takes to wipe your butts, fine that's your opinion you have that right. You don't think Doug's school should be this or that. That the ***** should do or be this or that, OK fine. I will tell you this though, that any mistakes that the ***** may have made or will make will have a far, far less impact on this Industry than what's going to happen and whats going on right now..on the flip side of this coin.

I don't care if you or anyone else doesn't give 2 hoots for the ***** I don't hold that against anyone, but don't attack me or my character because of an axe you've got to grind with someone else because I don't turn the other cheek or suffer fools easily.

Now Back To Your Regularly Scheduled Program.

[Cyclone 25]

I can say that Barry has always been consistent in his assessments.

It's pretty simple really. In fact, I asked my 8 year old son three questions this evening and he got it.

What do brick Layers do?....They lay bricks.

What do pressure washers do?....They pressure wash.

What do regulators do?....They regulate.

You'd think the ***** learned their lesson on this with the "Shopping BMP's" thing.

You don't bother these people. You stay off there radar. You work hard, make a living, follow the existing rules and hope some government A-hole doesn't come up with a new requirement that drives you out of business.

[John T 744]

It's pretty simple really. In fact, I asked my 8 year old son three questions this evening and he got it.

What do brick Layers do?....They lay bricks.

What do pressure washers do?....They pressure wash.

What do regulators do?....They regulate.

You'd think the ***** learned their lesson on this with the "Shopping BMP's" thing.

You don't bother these people. You stay off there radar. You work hard, make a living, follow the existing rules and hope some government A-hole doesn't come up with a new requirement that drives you out of business.

Once again Barry you got me tied-- I can't argue what your saying.

The leaders of the ***** spouted all over the place about BMP's being shopped.. And here in Red that's what there goal is.

You know if these leaders were honest and just backed off and went about doing some work instead of jumping down people's throats then they should get a pass and we all wait to see what they come out with.

But instead they fire insults at others when there goal is to do what there accusing others of.. Shopping BMP's to EPA types. Real good.

[Guy B 70]

You don't bother these people. You stay off there radar. You work hard, make a living, follow the existing rules and hope some government A-hole doesn't come up with a new requirement that drives you out of business.

Although I promised myself I wouldn't respond to any of your posts Barry.....I will respond to this one........I couldn't agree more!!!!! I'm not sure how I missed that seeing we were both In that thread but I did miss it.

I will make no excuse for Bill's quotes only to say that it has never come up in discussions, is not now in discussions, and if I have anything to do with it, will never come up for discussion. I'm sure these were some random thoughts of his and maybe he was thinking out loud (Why I Have No Idea) but again I won't make any excuses for those quotes. But I assure you I don't agree with any unnecessary contact with the EPA. Yes, Leave Them Alone!!!

Any type interaction with any Governing Body must be voted on by the board, 1 Man can't do it and won't do it.

I do think however that we should research the benefits of the OSHA idea as far as safety standards, it could have merit........Thoughts?

[Guy B 70]

Once again Barry you got me tied-- I can't argue what your saying.

The leaders of the ***** spouted all over the place about BMP's being shopped.. And here in Red that's what there goal is.

You know if these leaders were honest and just backed off and went about doing some work instead of jumping down people's throats then they should get a pass and we all wait to see what they come out with.

But instead they fire insults at others when there goal is to do what there accusing others of.. Shopping BMP's to EPA types. Real good.

John's Quote:

"Today we just got a commitment for 5 people from the EPA which may put this group over 10 now. This is going to be some ground breaking session."

Other side of the coin.

[Guy B 70]

John,

Robert instructed me that other states maybe interested in coming to the event. Nothing is set as of yet...but has Anyone heard of SGT Walsh?

This is going to happen, not just idle chit chat.

[John T 744]

John's Quote:

"Today we just got a commitment for 5 people from the EPA which may put this group over 10 now. This is going to be some ground breaking session."

Other side of the coin.

Yes A few of us are going to ask them the questions that need to be asked such as why do automobiles get all the breaks when it comes to pollution and yet Powerwashers are getting scrutinized. I still rather get these answers instead of some VP Bullshizzing people on the net how he had fines overturned and laws changed.. Rather here the facts from reliable sources and that guy... Well you know where people stand with his stories.

[John T 744]

Although I promised myself I wouldn't respond to any of your posts Barry.....I will respond to this one........I couldn't agree more!!!!! I'm not sure how I missed that seeing we were both In that thread but I did miss it.

I will make no excuse for Bill's quotes only to say that it has never come up in discussions, is not now in discussions, and if I have anything to do with it, will never come up for discussion. I'm sure these were some random thoughts of his and maybe he was thinking out loud (Why I Have No Idea) but again I won't make any excuses for those quotes. But I assure you I don't agree with any unnecessary contact with the EPA. Yes, Leave Them Alone!!!

Any type interaction with any Governing Body must be voted on by the board, 1 Man can't do it and won't do it.

I do think however that we should research the benefits of the OSHA idea as far as safety standards, it could have merit........Thoughts?

Sucks when you have to try and explain away once again another BODs position on things. Where having enough problems wondering why your president is all over the place recommending people to take the "Best PW school in the country" who just so happens to be your VP's school. Now we have a BOD point blank posting the goals of the ***** which is to from what it looks like is to shop their BMP's with EPA personal.

Maybe he should speak to you so you can inform him how your one of the ring leaders about there being NO org. Involvement with the EPA.. He's in complete contradiction to what you stand for. This is what happens when stories don't add up.

Better yet get Billy Booze here and let him explain what he's writing so you don't have to make excuses for him by suggesting "maybe he's thinking aloud" when he posted the above.

Didn't you Guy just post somewhere here that your not happy your president is all over the place promoting your VP's school to everyone over all other ***** members who may have schools as well and you said "maybe the Pres is trying to help him out because he had a heart attack and maybe had some medical bill issues"?

Common Guy give us a break already. Your better then that and where not stupid. Most of us posting here are seasoned contractors and when somethings not adding up were far from stupid.

[Guy B 70]

Yes A few of us are going to ask them the questions that need to be asked such as why do automobiles get all the breaks when it comes to pollution and yet Powerwashers are getting scrutinized.

Ok let me get this straight, you're the PWNA Environmental Director for the East Coast and you're gonna ask a question like that to the EPA??? You don't already know the answer, but you're gonna ask it anyway??? Hahaha! Oh Lord I'd love to see their faces when that happens!

Why not just ask the IRS to come down and ask them why our taxes are so high??? You'll still get the same blank look.

Good Luck with that!

[bigchaz 157]

Hi John, as you should be fully aware, any actions or official positions on behalf of the organization would come in the form of a BOD vote. If the board adopts a position on the items you are concerned about, that will be presented in the minutes.

In the meanwhile, are there any other "continuously hard working contractors' you would like to discredit?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[Guy B 70]

Common Guy give us a break already. Your better then that and where not stupid. Most of us posting here are seasoned contractors and when somethings not adding up were far from stupid.

Oh John please stop you got me laughing so hard I can hardly type, Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we need some seasoned English Teachers because were far from stupid, and where not going to take it anymore. I mean common Man!!!! Blahaha!!!

[John T 744]

Hi John, as you should be fully aware, any actions or official positions on behalf of the organization would come in the form of a BOD vote. If the board adopts a position on the items you are concerned about, that will be presented in the minutes.

In the meanwhile, are there any other "continuously hard working contractors' you would like to discredit?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

It's your fellow BOD's words not mine. His words are in red. You should also think back Charlie who was attacking who just recently especially about BMP's and EPA's and look what we have here. It's a two way street that will not end until some truths come out as to why some of these guys were attacking good hard working contractors and now there fellow BOD's are making a mockery of this Industry.

As for Billy Booze I think he posted that honestly without his hand being held. He apparently didn't know how so many others were getting attacked by some of his fellow BOD's and I'm guessing now he's going to be attacked by his own side.. Maybe you guys should communicate a little better with each other so you can get your stories straight.

[John T 744]

Oh John please stop you got me laughing so hard I can hardly type, Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we need some seasoned English Teachers because were far from stupid, and where not going to take it anymore. I mean common Man!!!! Blahaha!!!

What happens when you can't keep your stories straight. Don't worry Guy us hard working contractors don't need you to make accuses for us.. Hey how come your president isn't saying your contracting business is the best in the country? Is it because he can't make any money off of ya?

[Guy B 70]

Don't worry Guy us hard working contractors don't need you to make accuses for us..

Oh you're killing me!!! Hahaha!!!! Please, hahaha!!!! Stop!!!!