Ethanol 15 problems for small combustion engines

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This is a general notice that I received and seeing as it was not a current topic, decided to post it for others.

It is an email from a local distributor:

Be aware of E15 ethanol gas causing problems in small engines

If you are not aware, EPA has approved the release and use of E15 gasoline. This opens the door for the selling of gasoline with up to 15% ethanol content. We are very concerned about this and feel our customers should be as well. Currently most pump gas is E10 (10% ethanol). Putting aside any environmental advantages of ethanol, we have been seeing problems even at 10% ethanol because it is an alcohol, draws moisture, is corrosive and also evaporates quickly. Of course, water is and will always be an enemy to small engines but also, when ethanol evaporates it leaves a sludge material that causes clogging of lines, carburetors, etc.. All of these problems and effects are more prevalent in our equipment because we have periods of storage and/or inconsistent use. An increase to E15 will only intensify these problems.

What can we do?

[*=left]Support and back political influence to get the E15 law repealed.
[*=left]There are additives available to combat the effects of ethanol. We are stocking and using one and it is available through our parts department.
[*=left]Be aware of, and only purchase E10 ethanol or a lower % gasoline for use in your equipment.

Please be aware that damage caused by ethanol is not covered under any engine warranty. Please contact us with questions or ways we can assist you.

Sincerely,

Dennis Black

McHenry Pressure Cleaning Systems[/Quote]

Any discussion regarding this and information on local regulations or implementations would be helpful.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Ouch! The EPA is now shoving E15 down our throats? Hope NJ has the cahones to tell 'em to take a hike. Corn production taken out of the world market for ethanol is spiking food prices around the world.

E10 has been known to cause some problems, particularly in small and older gasoline engines. E15 use problems would be more pervasive. From what little I know, relatively fresh gasoline is recommended if used within a few months time.

There are stabilizers on the market that help with stored E10 gas in containers or fuel tanks. Sta-Bil is a less expensive, popular brand. Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment is a bit more expensive, but probably worth it for high performance engines.

For better info, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures Note the graphic posted here in the link provided.

[CNY Hood Cleaning 27]

someone is on drugs.. that ethonol screws everything up.. Were going to be replacing vehicals more often cause of break downs with this ethonol crap or more repair bills. One of my PW's doesn't even want to work on that crap. So we get the non-ethonol gas for the small motors and it works great.

[RPetry 564]

someone is on drugs.. that ethonol screws everything up.. Were going to be replacing vehicals more often cause of break downs with this ethonol crap or more repair bills. ...

apc_cleaning,

Nonsense. Use fresh fuel or additives.

I've run 5 track days, one over 94 F. degrees, in a 2005 Lotus SC 4 banger with 93 octane E10 fuel without problem. Stop by at Watkins Glen next month, the fuel works fine and I'll prove it again.

Our PW equipment or trucks do not come close to the demands put on a car driven as fast as driver ability possible around a road circuit for 30 minutes or so. Not that I am fast, but I do my best!

[Alexy 85]

If your machines are sitting long enough for varnish to build in the tank you need to up your marketing game.

Ethanol is utter garbage in fuel systems. Cars made for ethanol fuel systems can use it but many older vehicles and almost all small engines still do not readily use the fuel without damage. BTW if you fuel system has any rubber ( lines hoses and gaskets) Aluminum,Or magnesium ( many jets on khein carbs) Ethanol will damge them over time. Switch the rubber to EPDM and keep the other components checked regularlyand switch to stainless steel jets.

Honda, Kholer, and B&S have all issued service advisories in the last 3 years to service shops for them to replace bowl gaskets due to failure and resulting fire from ethanol eating the gaskets up.

Also one thing to be very aware of is that ethanol fuels unlike pure gas is CONDUCTIVE, if you use a electric pump to transfer fuel make sure it is a correct type for ethanol fuel.

[CNY Hood Cleaning 27]

Watkins Glen Speed Way is Cool!! People got some sweet car that they bring there.

I need to go there again

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If your machines are sitting long enough for varnish to build in the tank you need to up your marketing game.

Ethanol is utter garbage in fuel systems. Cars made for ethanol fuel systems can use it but many older vehicles and almost all small engines still do not readily use the fuel without damage. BTW if you fuel system has any rubber ( lines hoses and gaskets) Aluminum,Or magnesium ( many jets on khein carbs) Ethanol will damge them over time. Switch the rubber to EPDM and keep the other components checked regularlyand switch to stainless steel jets.

Honda, Kholer, and B&S have all issued service advisories in the last 3 years to service shops for them to replace bowl gaskets due to failure and resulting fire from ethanol eating the gaskets up.

Also one thing to be very aware of is that ethanol fuels unlike pure gas is CONDUCTIVE, if you use a electric pump to transfer fuel make sure it is a correct type for ethanol fuel.

This is what I was afraid of.

My skid unit has a Kohler, the other is a Vangaurd. but both have been having problems lately with starting.

Difficult starting or not wanting to stay running.

My Kohler unit smells like gas when this happens, sort of like the old carburetors used to do when flooded.

I haven't found any leaks but I have noticed a lot of gas odor in the van yet none of the tanks are leaking.

Looks like I may have to get them both in for preventative service.

Thanks Alexy.

Rod!~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

Ouch! The EPA is now shoving E15 down our throats? Hope NJ has the cahones to tell 'em to take a hike. Corn production taken out of the world market for ethanol is spiking food prices around the world.

E10 has been known to cause some problems, particularly in small and older gasoline engines. E15 use problems would be more pervasive. From what little I know, relatively fresh gasoline is recommended if used within a few months time.

There are stabilizers on the market that help with stored E10 gas in containers or fuel tanks. Sta-Bil is a less expensive, popular brand. Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment is a bit more expensive, but probably worth it for high performance engines.

For better info, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures Note the graphic posted here in the link provided.

I know. Just like the EPA VOC limit change in 2005 with oil based sealers.

Screwing with things and never considering the damage. Of course, we know there is some company behind the push as usual just to get better sales because they want in the game.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

... Of course, we know there is some company behind the push as usual just to get better sales because they want in the game. Rod!~

Rod,

I don't think it is "some company". More likely, a whole ton of agricultural interests and associated lobbyists. If you go inland from the East and West Coasts, agriculture is a HUGE percentage of the economy. I'm too lazy to find a chart, but the price of a bushel of corn has risen dramatically over the ethanol years, possibly mirroring the cost of college tuition increases.

Much of this is due to gov't policy. Oil became verboten, wind, solar, and silly corn ethanol was the energy future. How's that working out? All of a historical sudden, we find out that there is more natural gas BTU's here in the US than Middle East petroleum reserves. And the Keystone pipeline from Canada is off the table.

Meanwhile, millions of poor around the world suffer due to the high price of corn products. The United States production of corn fed a large part of the acute starving and suffering world in my lifetime. Now its down to pay up, as we're eco friendly.

Nonsense and shameful.

[CNY Hood Cleaning 27]

Rick you are right it's a lot of nonsense and shameful.

One of mine started to act weird today. Fresh gas today and it started to run for about 15-20 seconds then shuts down. All filters are clean and it starts right up for another 15-20 sec then shuts down.

Any suggestions??? Would it be the gas? Its a Honda Engine.

[RPetry 564]

Rick you are right it's a lot of nonsense and shameful.

One of mine started to act weird today. Fresh gas today and it started to run for about 15-20 seconds then shuts down. All filters are clean and it starts right up for another 15-20 sec then shuts down.

Any suggestions??? Would it be the gas? Its a Honda Engine.

Apc,

Certainly sounds like fuel starvation, but I'm no mechanic.

I have to admit I have never experienced any problem with any engine using 10% ethanol fuel. Our primary PW is a 12 yr. old Hydrotek with a Vanguard engine. Knock on wood, it has always started right up and has never let us down. Aside from normal maintenance, the only repair was replacing the unloader a few yrs. ago. The AR pump has never required a rebuild.

I do add fuel stabilizer and run the engine for about 5 minutes before putting it to bed for the winter.

[Chemical Doctor 15]

Rick you are right it's a lot of nonsense and shameful.

One of mine started to act weird today. Fresh gas today and it started to run for about 15-20 seconds then shuts down. All filters are clean and it starts right up for another 15-20 sec then shuts down.

Any suggestions??? Would it be the gas? Its a Honda Engine.

I would replace the fuel lines. The rubber inside breaks down and the collapse resulting in lack of fuel. You can not tell by just looking at the outside. Gas lines should be replaced from time to time. One thing for sure, if the outside of the line is hard go ahead and replace them. The fuel today is wrecking havoc on small engines. Edited July 31, 2013 by Chemical Doctor

[Alexy 85]

Not only chage the fuel lines but flush out the carb and bowl as well ( take the jet out and wash it ot as well) at a minimum clean the carb with carb cleaner. As a rubber fuel line breaks down the bits get pushed into the carb and clog it up.

[Chemical Doctor 15]

Not only chage the fuel lines but flush out the carb and bowl as well ( take the jet out and wash it ot as well) at a minimum clean the carb with carb cleaner. As a rubber fuel line breaks down the bits get pushed into the carb and clog it up.

Thanks for adding this information also. Cross the t's and dot the i's!

[CNY Hood Cleaning 27]

Thanx guys Ive got to replace those rubber hoses.