F-18 does it again!!!!

[CCHSNC 14]

So my guys were stripping a log home today and on the second floor there is a small addition. Well on that addition was paint with stain over it. The stain literally started to run off while applying the stripper but that's not the cool part. I mixed 1 gallon of F-18 at around 25-30 oz (weight) per gallon. The wall size is around 5t x 20l, by the time the stripper was done being applied (about 5 minutes) they started to wash from the starting point and the paint just melted off. Now I don't know what kind of paint it was so please don't take this as saying that F-18 will remove all paints but I will tell you this, you stand a 90% better chance removing paint with plain F-18 than with HD-80 and its Boost stuff.

[Aplus 525]

I mixed 1 gallon of F-18 at around 25-30 oz (weight) per gallon. The wall size is around 5t x 20l, by the time the stripper was done being applied (about 5 minutes) they started to wash from the starting point and the paint just melted off. Now I don't know what kind of paint it was so please don't take this as saying that F-18 will remove all paints but I will tell you this, you stand a 90% better chance removing paint with plain F-18 than with HD-80 and its Boost stuff.

At 30oz per gallon, that's a cost of nearly $10/gallon, or $50 per five gallon pail. That's a lot of dough.

Have you used HD-80 with or without Boost? I have, many, many pails of HD-80, and 5 gallons of Boost, in fact.

So far I have only used F-18 on five decks, but initial findings have shown that mixed at the same ratio as HD-80, required dwell time is nearly double.

For typical day to day usage, why would I want to double my dwell time, and pay people to stand around? If I were to double the strength of the F-18, then I would be paying twice as much for products, and why would I want to do that.

On delicate jobs or exotic woods, F-18 may be a great choice because it is milder than HD-80, and perhaps could cause less furring of the wood.

I am prepared to back up everything I report with personally gathered facts, plenty of pictures, and even receipts showing exactly how much product I purchase, which is a lot.

Performance of many products can be affected by differing water conditions, air temperatures, wood species, and other factors. What works in one region of the country may not work the same someplace else. Given these facts, it is a bold statement to say a person has a 90% better chance using one product over another.

[Celeste 341]

Robert, with that strong of a chemical, what kind of residual furring do you get? It seems if a chemical is so aggressive that it can strip in that short of a dwell time, you're gonna get the fuzzies.

We've also done side by side analysis with equal amounts of chemical and the HD-80 out-performed the F-18 on the deck we were working on. Don't get me wrong - we went with the F-18 on our own fence - it most definitely has it's place. Maybe it is just better suited for logs than deck boards in some circumstances? I only posted our experience on this because we are in the same geographical location so that would not be a factor. And frankly, I'm willing to bet if it's concentrated SH that you're trying to get at, Steve's RM4X would whoop both.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We have also had the same experience that Tony and Celeste & Roger have had. :cup:Now that I have some coffee in me, I'll elaborate a little more. :cup:

We have found that the dwell time when the two products are mixed at the same ratio, is longer for F-18 what it is for HD-80. We have found that you need a larger amount of F-18 to do what HD-80 will do. We have found that HD-80 darkens the wood more when working. This means it is more alkaline. Not necessarily good or bad, just what it is. We have found you can neutralize and brighten both equally well, although it is easier to neut/lighten a less alkaline deck.

We have used the F-18 on PT lumber, Ipe, and on log homes. On a log home we did, we had to go back and restrip an area where we used F-18, with HD-80 to remove the Defy product the F-18 would not take off at the same ratio. We mixed both at about 6 oz to the gallon. On an Ipe deck we stripped, it worked fine, but then Ipe is very hard and tight, and there is not alot of product penetration. The product stripped was Olympic Maximum, 2 coats, age 6 months in that case. The F-18 area was easier to brighten thatnt he HD-80 side on the Ipe deck.

When we were selling products, I was hesitant to speak out about these. Now that we are selling nothing, I feel we can share our findings, as contractors who do the same work that you all do. These are our results.

We have said it before, and will say it again. The key to making any product work, regardless of what you choose ( assuming the products is capable) is the dwell time, which means patience. I don't care how strong you mix something. If it is too strong, it will fuzz the wood more. They key, is knowing how strong to mix for your job, and how long to dwell. This takes experience, and practice. You won't get it straight out of the gate without some coaching.

We have used HD-80 to strip at as low as 2 oz per gallon, had no fuzzing, and a great result, all due to our working with it for years now and knowing how to use it when. Get to know your tools. Get some pallets, apply various stains and sealers, let it cure a while, and practice. Try differnet products and see which one works best for you. We all work a little bit differently. We do use both products.

We welcome folks to call if they need field support, just as we have done in the past. We are glad to answer questions.

Beth :cup:

[CCHSNC 14]

Well it's funny how people get different results. I Guess we will just agree to disagree and leave it at that. OK I can't:) It's even funnier how every test I did with equal amounts of stripper F-18 Whipped HD-80's tail. In fact I have found that when using F-18 compaired to HD I only had to mix it at 6 oz per gallon and the HD at 8????? The reason F-18 is not as HOT as HD is yes there is a little less SH (I think) but its more than SH that strips. I guess that's why I always got more fuzzing when I use to us HD. It's funny how the dwell time for HD has always needed to be longer for me when mixed equal to other strippers. It's also funny how if HD was so good they had to come out with a boost to match other products?? Oh that's right since it won't desolve when mixed over 10 oz per gallon they must not of had a choice. Wait can mix mix F-18 stronger if needed? Why yes you can. Why is that you ask? Well it's because it's a better blend of chemicals and not just mainly SH with a cheap soap. And that brings up another point since it is gentler, when mixing it stronger you still don't get excessive fuzzing. When I striooed that paint the fuzzing was minimal. If we don't get rained out I will post a pic tomorrow or the next day. And yes I would rather spend 10 dollars on a gallon of stripper than have 4 guys taking the paint off by other means. Ok Tony I will bite. Lets say that F-18 needed to mixed at a rate of 10 oz per gallon for a 10 minute dwell time. Thats a cost of $3.20 per gallon. And HD at the same. Cost is the same with the both but here is the difference with my experiences (and most that have used both) HD will have to dwell for lets say 20 to 30 min., on the same job F-18 will nedd to dwell for maybe 10-15 min. if that with one aplication even if it dries. Now you have 2 men that you pay $10 per hr. Who will make more money off there employees? Who will be able to do mre jobs in a day? Who will spend less time detailing? Take a gues?? Yep that's right the Co. that uses F-18. Ok that's the end of the never ending pissing contest for me. YOu can reply but I won't :). I will say one more thing I don't care who's product it is if Russel, Steve, Bob, Espec, whoever has the best for my needs I will use it. So you can say I push the F-18 because I like Bob and that won't be true, I mean I like Bob but if his product sucked I would still say.

See ya it's been a long day and I need to shower if I expect my wife to let me in bed tonight. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Exactly. There are many things to consider... people work a little differently, people are in different climates where various products are more popular than others. The important thing here, is to find a product, whatever that product may be, and learn to use it and be comfortable with it so you can get optimal results...that's the bottom line, getting the results you set out to get. You really can't fault anyone for getting great results with a product you have chosen not to use. There are at this point a number of things that you can use and get great results with. And really, isn't it nice to have a choice, so you can test things and see what works best for you? A few years back the choices were more limited. Today, you can select the tool of the day depending on the job.

Beth

[PressurePros 248]

It is my understanding that HD-80 is not just Sodium Hydroxide with a cheap soap. Speaking with Russ several times he actually gave me a bit more of a breakdown of the actual components in HD-80. I try to remain unbiased and I'm sure f-18 is an outstanding product, but I think bashing one product over another when 1) The statements made are based upon rhetoric not science and 2) Real world results are varied and dependant upon the person performing the comparison

[Cleveland Mobile 14]

Before trying F18 I used my own mix that contains butyl.....I tried the HD80 a couple times (a gift from Mike Cappa before he moved)....Didnt work for me at all....but the F18 really worked well mixing 16oz per gallon. I've even run it through a downstream injector with good results, especially to clean concrete. I'm sure the HD80 is a great product and who knows...i could have mixed it wrong...but I'm a firm believer of carrying the minumum amount of chemicals with me.....usually there are only 3 chemicals in my truck to wash and strip decks....truck washing....concrete cleaning.

Andy

[Aplus 525]

Well I think I may have said this before, but based on observations made on this bbs, it still appears that geographic locations play a large factor in product results.

Prior to any involvement with these type of bbs, (actually there were none) I would have never considered that different results could be obtained in different locations.

Being in the Detroit area, I have been blessed with an outstanding municipal water system, consistantly rated very high compared to others in the nation. In comparison, water in some southern states I've been in is so crappy, that when showering, it feels like I can't get completely rinsed off. There has to be a link to water conditions relating to chemical performance.

So from here on out, when I speak of experiences and results I have had, it relates to what I experience in Detroit, and not necessasarily what others may experience.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There has to be a link to water conditions relating to chemical performance.

That is a factor, so is air temp, humidity, etc.

When any of us uses and reports on what we have done, the weather is important too. It is also important to not e that the finishes we are removing will weather differently in different areas of the US. This is why some products are not even available in Northern states. (cracking and peeling etc.)

Beth

[aph111 14]

There seems to be alot of product politics on this site.$50.00 for 5 gallons of applicable stripper is flat out crazy.I am no chemical scientist and can make 5 gallons of stripper for about 1 dollar.You guys should really look into making your own.

[Celeste 341]

There is a lot to be said for purchasing chemicals that are specially formulated to do a specific job - one that comes with a manufacturers support and all of the appropriate ingredients (which you will not find listed on an MSDS) to make each chemical properly react with each other. Having the peace of mind that if something reacts differently, you have someone to call is well worth the extra few cents to us.

[aph111 14]

were talking dollars not cents

[Celeste 341]

We're also talking major major mixing of product. At the recommended amounts, costs of the products being discussed are not dollars. Russell can give you the exact cost on his products, but if I remember correctly, using the HD-80 is pennies and I believe that the F-18 is in the same price neighborhood.

[aph111 14]

I was going by the prices listed above.Their figures must be wrong

[PressurePros 248]

If you break down the cost and time saving with 80 or F-18, it really is well worth it. Pure hot sodium hydroxide is not only bad for the wood, it's not a great stripper. Time is money and I am not into spending hours of my time trial and error finding the right combination of chemicals that will strip one year old Behr sealer.

On most strip jobs I use 8 oz of HD-80 per gallon. The final cost is about $6/gallon. With rewetting I get about 80 sq ft per gallon. On a 20x20 with rails and a couple of steps, I use about 10 gallons or $60. I would get $600 for this portion of a restoration. Factoring in 5 hours to do a thorough job stripping, rinsing and brightening and adding another $25 for acid, I make my hundred per hour.

Adding even one hour to my overall time by using an inferior chemical combination would not be worth saving pennies on raw chemicals. Sometimes it is much wiser to look at the big picture instead of getting hung up on apples to oranges comparisons. Just my $.02

[JFife 14]

Finally, aph111 says what I've been thinkin'!!! Aph, what Celeste is talking about (i believe) is that hd80 applied cost about three cents per sf. I still don't see the rationale of buying 3 gallons of Naoh for $175, when I can buy it at a chem. store for $25 for a 50# bag.

I challenge anyone to use hd80 next to plain ole' Naoh and tell me you get a different result. You can even mix about 10% metacillicate to the mix for a better result (so a chemist told me.) Regarding MSDS, when you buy a chem they give you the msds there on the spot. I probably shouldn't keep wasting my time trying to help some people save some money, but you are basically buying the likes of bottled water.

Hey, this is supposed to be a site just for contractors now, so let's let the free information fly:

Stripper: 90% Naoh, 10% Sodium Metacillacate, maybe some liquid soap

Brightener: Oxalic (up to 10%) or Citric

Cleaner: (in a 5er) 32 oz. of Sodium Percarbonate, 8oz of TSP and 2oz. detergent

There you have it, I've tried nearly anything on the market and these formulas work as good or better than anything you are buying. If you do ANY significant amount of work, and you make these changes, we won't be talking cents, or dollars, but literally a thousand or more dollars in increased profit. Guess I am just sick of people putting oxalic acid in a cute little baggy and selling it as special "brightener" for 20 times what they paid for it. I was a schmuck that bought like that for a while, until I learned a better way and cut out a middle man. I really think some people spend their hard-earned dollars buying overpriced crap from people because they just like talking to them on the phone, and they realize that this super-helpful salesman on the other end would have no interest in helping them unless they were buying.

[JFife 14]

PressurePro,

Using your example, Naoh would have cost about $5 instead of $60. A savings of $55....now say you stripped 6 decks a week like this, that is a savings of $330, or $1320 a month ( a decent mortgage payment). Certainly a Wharton man as yourself can appreciate this type of a savings. Look, how many big companies do you know that do this biz that buy products?? Sunbrite??? Make their own... Tim Cross??? Makes his own....

Have you tried plain naoh on wood or are you taking a salesman's word for it?? I'm gonna do a job somewhere near you this summer and you can come take a look at the results derived from naoh, and I'll take you out for a steak with my savings:)

Bad for wood??? C'mon, more salesman talk. People say the same thing about bleach......of course it is bad if you don't work properly. Percarb felts wood, so does bleach, naoh, and even plain water will.

Next we can all argue the merits of the ole' "oil base stains replinish the depleted oils in the wood" arguement. Hey Seymore! You Texans should start drilling trees for parrifin oil!!

[PressurePros 248]

Jon, I have tried sodium hydroxide on wood. In fairness, and for comparison sake, I used Delco's hottest formula that I used on hoods for awhile. The results were lousy. It is entirely possible that Delco's hood cleaner still wasn't the percentage of NaOH I needed. I have been averaging 40 lbs of HD-80 per week so I am all for achieving the savings of which you speak.

I am an economics guy not a chemist so yes, to an extent I have to rely on those more knowlegable than I when it comes to percentages of chemical and their ratios in a final product. I am also guilty of buying Windex and I suppose believing the hype that through some magic R&D they have come along with a better formulation than plain ole water and vinegar.

For me, it comes down to convenience and customer service. I make one call and four days later my chemicals for the next week are at my doorstep. When I have a question on use, yes, another call usually solves the problem. I realize that customer service costs money. When I want the cheapest push broom I go to Walmart. When I want a more durable broom, that will serve my needs and have a knowlegable person to educate me on the intracies of broomology, I pay the extra.

I will revisit my opinions on using HD-80, F-18 or any product if making them in raw form is as easy as you state. For now I just don't have the time to play around. How did you come acrossed these ratios and mixes?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I want to add a few words of caution here, to those who are new or relatively new to chemicals, who are not seasoned and comfortable with them, and who at this point doen't even wear the proper PPE when using them.

Please do not make your own home brews for stripping straight out of the gate. The support you get from the manufacturers and distributors of many products out there, is going to help you become very good at what you are embarking upon, and you'll be safer doing it. Use something that is formulated, that you can get good solid telephone support on when you need it, and save yourself the potentially hazardous headache from playing chemist as a newbie.

There is quite a bit to be said for the value of the knowledge the manufacturers and distributors share with their clients in support of their products. I doubt many here can say they started with pure raw chems, figured it out with no bumps and no outside support.

This is a forum by contractors, for contractors, and personally, this contractor thinks it is good solid, professional advice to seek support from those who are expereinced, even if it means spending a few more bucks, learning it right, being safe, and then later if you want to change you understand why far, far, far better than you would if you were new and your head was spinning as you tried to absorb too much too fast. Work smarter, not harder, and be safe.

My .02...

Beth

[tropical wave 22]

I like the ease of having my chems (powders) already mixed up so I can add my water......msds sheets already made up for me, customer support when I have a problem or questions, already in a tub to toss on the trailer......

you see, I can get tomato concentrate, vinegar, corn syrup, salt, onion powder and mix it all up.........but I'd rather just buy the squirt bottle of Heinz Ketchup......and I'm very sure my home brew of ketchup just wouldn't taste as good !!!!

probably apples and oranges, but my moronic .02

[CCHSNC 14]

Citric from www.thechemistrystore.com $80+/- for a 50# bag.

[Aplus 525]

I've been getting certain chems from the chemistry store for years. In fact, last year I visited them in south Florida. Yes, the citric acid in 50# bags works every bit as good as the premixed stuff sold for three times the price. I go the dollar store, buy generic ziploc bags, and measure into 2# pouches that are ready to mix.

As far as mixing caustics goes, the most important thing, as Beth stated, is to know what you're doing and not jump into something uneducated. That stuff is very powerful and has the potential to cause great bodily harm.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Our companies reputation is due largely to the products we use and the evaluation of the performance of them over the years. In all honesty, we owe alot of our success to ES products because of their continued performance and quality. I know it has been an advantage that we were the "guinea pigs" for field testing of all the products, and our feed back helped to narrow in on what was working and what wasnt. In return, we support ES by continuing to use their restoration products. We also use PT's products as well. They both have a function in our arsenal. Yes, we could go out and buy raw chems and mix stuff up ourselves. One point to consider here...we become the manufacturers and therefore the responsibility and liability falls on us if anything happens while using these concoctions. Yes, there is a good reason to draw a line. We are wood restoration professionals, not chemists. I choose to leave that to those who have the talent and trust in them to create the products I need to do what I do best which is prolong the life of wooden structures so that the trees in the forest do not need to be cut down.

.02

Rod~

[GymRat 14]

Mixing youir own chemicals can be a very big savings, but could also be a very big loss if you mix the wrong things together. I do mix some of my own, but I am very careful and follow the rules. I agree with Rod that we are not chemist, but some of the people producing these cleaners are far from chemist themselves. They order the same stuff I can get from a local chemical store and mix it up and package it in pretty buckets. I would never tell someone to mix there own cleaners unless they are 150% sure what can be mixed, and what could go boom, or burn your freaking eyes out from the fumes, or just burn your lungs up. Wow that scared me!

[Henry B. 4]

I have to agree with Beth, the liability in mixing your own chemicals is not worth the savings.

One injury to an employee will cost you 1,000 times more in lawsuits and workers comp claims than you saved making your own chems...