F-18 does it again!!!!

[CCHSNC 14]

So my guys were stripping a log home today and on the second floor there is a small addition. Well on that addition was paint with stain over it. The stain literally started to run off while applying the stripper but that's not the cool part. I mixed 1 gallon of F-18 at around 25-30 oz (weight) per gallon. The wall size is around 5t x 20l, by the time the stripper was done being applied (about 5 minutes) they started to wash from the starting point and the paint just melted off. Now I don't know what kind of paint it was so please don't take this as saying that F-18 will remove all paints but I will tell you this, you stand a 90% better chance removing paint with plain F-18 than with HD-80 and its Boost stuff.

[Aplus 525]

Doing rough math, I find the approximate raw cost of HD-80 to be about .31/oz.

Given that HD-80 will remove 90% of the stains I encounter mixed at half strength, or 4oz per gallon of water, you're looking at 1.24 per gallon of mix.

That is a fair price to me, when all I have to do is place a phone call, get my products in about 4 days, and grab a pail, ready to use.

TimberStrip Pro is slightly less expensive per oz, and F-18 is significantly more expensive per oz as compared to HD-80.

As Rod stated, I'm a wood restoration guy, and my time is best spent doing what I do best, which is not mixing chemicals in my garage.

It's really no different than hiring an accountant to handle your taxes. Sure you could save a few hundred bucks doing them yourself, but then again, why not leave it to the experts and concentrate on what we do best?

That's just my .02

[JFife 14]

....Many valid points. One I cannot get my hands around though is the safety issue. Are you guys seriously thinking that if an employee of yours gets burned that ES will come to the rescue with lawyers and insurance coverage and assistance, etc.???? Seriously??? What is it you expect from one of these companies if something "happens"??? I think Russ would tell you his liability ends when his product leaves his home.

I figured the apple/orange arguments would fire up with, "I can make my own bread/tomato sauce/ketchup, etc." Ok, you use, what, ten bottles of ketchup a year for a cost of $25. You use $2,500 worth of stripper which you could make yourself for $250. Not really analagous.

Ken, I can tell you are a very intelligent guy and I knew you'd definitely have an open mind to saving money. One thing I would add is that I wouldn't advise this to a beginner. A newbie doesn't use much product, and can benefit from calls to these companies. I am not suggesting this to newbies, I am suggesting it to you guys that are doing 250 decks or so a year and spending 5K on strippers.

Ken, me and another guy had some products analyzed by a chemist, products we had found to work well. These are the ratios we found to work best. You can increase the percarb wash as needed.

I am not saying buying this stuff is all bad. I don't use these chems nearly as much as I used to, and sometimes it is more convenient for me just to buy some stripexL instead of going to the work of messing with the chems.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Are you guys seriously thinking that if an employee of yours gets burned that ES will come to the rescue with lawyers and insurance coverage and assistance, etc.???? Seriously??? What is it you expect from one of these companies if something "happens"??? I think Russ would tell you his liability ends when his product leaves his home.

My point is, that any premade product reduces the risk you would have from mixing your own... If a newbie takes raw ingredients and mixes them together, and then just to "try" it thrown in one more thing that creates a volatile situation, all in the name of saving money... perhaps you can avoid that if it is premade and work well.

Also, how many of you would have insurance problems if your insurance companies knew you were mixing your own???? Jon does yours know? (liability ins.) How would your underwriter feel if they knew you mixed raw chemicals? How would the client feel if you were mixing raws on their property, rather than using a brand name? Most people don't like the word "chemical" to begin with. Try adding the word "mixing" in front of it and watch the sheer shock on their faces. Do you tell them you will be mixing raw chems on their property?

Now add to that, how many one man shows are uninsured for health? How many guys can't afford health insurance? And if they mix their own and have to be hospitalized for inhaling a toxic vapor? Who pays that? It's their dime.

I guess I am very cautious... Maybe I think too much. :seeya:

We encourage newbies to try:

http://www.esproducts.net or distributor http://www.sunbritesupply.com

http://www.pressuretek.com or distributor http://www.acrproducts.com

http://www.deckguide.com/

Beth :groovy2:

[GymRat 14]

I would rather mix the raw chemicals myself, because I know what I am dealing with, as I really do not know the percentages of a store bought or so called specialist has mixed. We all mix our own solution in a round about way, when we add a little of this and a little of that for our house washing formulas or spicing up wood cleaning solutions. I would not ever want someone experimenting without the knowlede of what can happen. Health is a lot more important than saving a $1, and we all know money can not buy you good health.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I think the most important thing to note here is what vets are telling newbies.

Responsibility in information being given is what is being emphasised and should not be taken lightly.

People look to us to give them information and as the saying goes "A little information can be dangerous and more information can be helpful".

If you diy'rs want to mix your own, best to you. We dont beleive it is very responsible to tell those with little to no experience to do this to save money. Even the more experienced are not qualified to be chemists (unless they have the background) and should not be encouraged by those who are not qualified to give such advise.

Again, Responsibility in information and accountability for safety should always be the main theme here on TGS.

Rod~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod and I spoke face to face with a guy the other day, he had no knowledge of chems, was new, and had been using sheer pressure to wash. He had tried mixing bleach and amonia together. He expereinced gas that made him ill. He was very lucky.

Please read this thread.

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194

Beth

[Pete Marentay 14]

I have a lot of the same thoughts as Beth and Rod on this subject. The insurance coverage that Beth is referring to is to cover end users 1) that the product is exactly what it says it is on the label 2) that the safety instructions on the label and the 24-hour emergency number are available and accurate. Manufacturers are liable, particularly in this post 9/11 time, for the chemicals they place into the marketplace. They are not responsible for end-user mishandling, however, as long as the label gives proper handling instructions.

We have always been a lawsuit-happy society. It just seems like anyone who creates their own concoction in their garage is asking for trouble at some point. Yes, I recognize that you can save money - as long as you don't ever need support or liability insurance or consistent performance and you never make a mistake. If you have employees handling home-made strippers (or worse yet, have employees make up the mixtures) you are asking for double trouble - product liability to your customer and Work Comp issues.

Sun Brite Supply carries a $1M policy for our protection and yours and we require our suppliers to carry even higher coverage.

The biggest differences between all the products on the market today are the surfactants, not the heat. We sell specific cleaners for every type of cleaning job, and more than half of them start out with Sodium Hydroxide as the main ingredient. Thats where the similarity ends, though. The different surfactants produce different results. When we revved up our REMOVE stripper this year the primary change was the surfactants. We wanted even less sudsing and even more lift, so we stepped up the SH a little and changed all of the surfactants. We eliminated product separation and the stuff works even faster than before. It rinses cleaner in less time, which turns into less time and more profit on the job.

Anybody can mix up SH at high strength and add dish detergent, but the results are nothing similar to what a good chemical manufacturer can engineer. You can save money a lot of ways in this business, but not all of them are wise. (Direct-drive machines are cheaper than belt-driven ones, but that's not a smart way to save money over the long run, for example.) If you want to mix your own cleaners but get your hands on the good surfactants, you might try E-Spec. I believe they ship surfactants without the caustic added.

Beth's point about what would happen to your insurance rates if your carrier learned that you were mixing products yourself is real! We went through a surprise inspection of our facility because our insurance company wondered if we mixed any products ourselves. We were told that our carrier would have refused coverage at any price if we did our own mixing. They are very afraid of the liability issues.

Before ya'll jump all over me for chiming in on the topic, I have a self-serving interest in taking this position because I sell cleaners. At the same time, we have worked our behinds off to keep the prices of these cleaners under 2 cents per square foot for most of you to use, even after adding the cost of freight. Many are even less. And we still provide liability coverage and product support at those prices.

If HD-80 goes for $69 for 10 lbs. (the most expensive way to buy it) and that makes 20 gallons of extremely strong stripper, you are spending less than $3.50 per gallon. If freight makes that initial cost $80, you are spending $4 per gallon. If each gallon covers 150 sq. ft., then you are spending 2.7 cents per square foot. There are ways to get lower prices on the products, which can bring even this super-stripper under the 2-cents-per-sq.-ft. range.

REMOVE stripper is one of the alternative products on the market. Bought in bulk, it is about half a penny per square foot to use and will handle 60% - 70% of the jobs out there in its normal dilution. It can be beefed up by adding less water when you find a tougher finish (but most of the time that isn't needed). That comes out to about $1 to strip 200 square feet - pretty darn inexpensive.

Now that's my 2 cents worth!

[JFife 14]

Beth,

Of course my ins. co. doesn't know, probably wouldn't care. There is nothing illegal or wrong or incorrect about mixing chems that can be readily bought. I do agree mixing is not in a newbie's best interest, i am talking to the guys doing a couple hundred grand in work a year or more.

Just trying to pass on some helpful info to the contractors. Whether anyone does it or not is really of no consequence to me in any way. And it is not important to me to be proven right, either. I am fine agreeing to disagree. But maybe if we all quit buying re-packaged Naoh it would put pressure on the chemists/makers to make something different and safer. Like I said, I hardly use these chems that much anymore. I go with more expensive and safer every time. That is why I am going to try Pressuretek's stripper, I've heard it is far less toxic and I'll support someone moving in that direction.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Folks... download the Chemical Reactivity Worksheet. http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/chemaids/react.html

Be safe...

Beth

[Larry B 55]

Having worked in the corporate world previously, I can tell you that just because you bought it from somebody else, it does not end your liability to your employees or customers. The only way to protect yourself from a liability lawsuit is through training and documentation. It is true that if you mix chems yourself, the prosecution will try to prove you made a mistake and are basically an idiot. You have to prove them wrong.

If you purchase products or mix your own you need a comprehensive safety program. This includes a safety manual, PPE's, training and most importantly, documentation. Most employers tell the new guy how to use something and never mention it again. When he hurts himself 6mos down the road, you are liable. A safety program must be complete and covered in meetings continuously and it must be documented with the signatures of all attendees and the trainer. You must also be willing to enforce the safety rules, it does not matter if he is your best or most reliable worker, if he disobeys the safety rules he must go.

This is only a few things that will help you should an accident arrise and you have the need to defend yourself, your company and your livelihood.

[Henry B. 4]

I've been power washing for about 16 years now and I still buy chemicals pre-made. I may have saved a bit of money by making my own but it's not worth the liability to me. All the chemicals we use are used according to the manufacturers instructions.

Even if I could save 10,000 a year on making my own stuff I still wouldn't do it and open myself up to more liability.

[CCHSNC 14]

Tony,

How do you figure F-18 to cost more? It's the same price as HD-80 which I beleuve is $5 per pound. And just like you say your able to do with the HD at 4oz per gallon we do the same with the F-18 but with a shorter dwell time. And the HD needs a boost if you come across a stubborn stain and with the F-18 you just add more because it will desolve up to 32oz per gallon if needed. (which you shouldn't for stain)

[Aplus 525]

Robert,

In typical situations, HD-80 works about 90% of the time mixed at 4oz/gal. To get the same results using F-18, I had to mix upwards of 8oz/gal.

That makes F-18 more expensive to use than HD-80 for typical jobs.

F-18 would shine in cases that required a really hot mix. I'm not going to debate the use of the Boost product. Russ can elaborate himself if he chooses.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The use of a booster is for stripping acrylics, and paints...Hd-80 will remove any sealer out there on the market at 8 oz/gal (which is rarely needed as Tony mentioned.)

There is no real margin of benefit over time saved as to product used if you have to use 4 times as much of one product to do the same job as another. The key is to know which tool is best for which job. That, comes with experience in use.

Again, I am glad to hear you are happy with a product that works for you and care to share your enthusiasm here. They Both are great products and neither one should be admonished over the other. The decisions are now up to those who would care to try either or both. We use both where they work best according to their design.

Rod~

[JFife 14]

Another issue not brought up is mixability. I usually xjet strippers, so I have to mix something three times as strong so it will be the correct strength when it hits the surface. I can usually remove anything w/ 40oz naoh xjetted. I may buy some hd80 or something else and compare it side to side with naoh. I understand and respect all of your opinions, especially regarding the liability factors, and if you had a lot of employees like say, Henry has, that would be an issue. But as far as performance, I truly feel naoh works better than anything else out there, and I know plenty of others that agree. Perhaps I am buying a stronger grade?? I don't know. I am going to research it though and see what's up, just for my curiosity. Even so, my goal is to never use naoh again within two years, at least not in the same form. All blasting, and strong percarbs for me.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Blasting? As in high pressure for results? Or do you mean cob? Can you elaborate? You are not advocating washing with sheer pressure are you?

As for the x-jet, great tool, we use them all the time. However, we do not downstream any sodium hydroxide based strippers. Again, liability.

Beth

[PressurePros 248]

Even so, my goal is to never use naoh again within two years, at least not in the same form. All blasting, and strong percarbs for me.

I'm curious too. Could you elaborate Jon? Is your reluctance because of the damage to plant life, employee liability or other?

Also Beth/Rod, I have to admit to being green enough to wonder why someone would need to stock two kinds of hydroxide strippers? Is F-18 better suited to remove certain types of sealer? I haven't come acrossed a sealer that HD hasn't been able to break though some I have had to work on a little more than others. Need input...

[JFife 14]

I do little except log work anymore, so I was referring to media blasting. .....but, log homes have decks, and media blasting is not efficient for that.

Ken, I say I don't want to use strippers because of the aggrevation. Burns, chokes, etc. I've not found anything one can wear as protection to totally protect you (in comes the xjet). Have you got naoh in your fingernails???? Ahhh, that is the worst. Frankly, I am not making enough money to deal with all of the naoh issues. That is why I'd support anyone looking for a way to make it safer and less potent.

But since you brought up blasting with water, if that worked that is what I'd do. I factor sanding/buffing in every job I do, I've done very few jobs where it is not required, whether it is naoh, percarb, bleach, etc.

[JFife 14]

.....and, if you use naoh on a home, you have serious leakage and window issues. .....What if the naoh leaks through cracks (it will) and runs down the interior wall?? I've had this happen. What if the brightener runs down the interior wall and they aren't sealed???? I've also had this happen. Even if you tape windows before applying stripper, it finds it's way through and either strips paint or eats metal. It provides many stressful hassles and aggrevations.

[Celeste 341]

Geez.......nothing like turning folks off of log homes there Jon :) Seriously, I do get the long term health risks that you can avoid using media rather than chems. Kinda makes the term "cost effective" a mute point, huh?

Celeste

[James 624]

You don't see to many fifty year old pressure cleaner's ?

[Celeste 341]

It's a very sobering thought.

[tropical wave 22]

You don't see to many fifty year old pressure cleaner's ?

is it because they made their millions in their 40's and are living sweet in the tropics ????

[Henry B. 4]

We went out and stripped a deck yesterday using f-18. The first two layers of stain came off really nicely. Then, we hit paint.

The screwed up part is that we did do a test spot when bidding the job it just so happened that the area we did the test spot was not painted..lol

F-18 took off 98% off the paint when mixed a bit hotter and the job turned out pretty nice at the end. Unfortuanetly for me some of the stripper ran down inside my glove and also burned one of my fingers... Yeh, the stuff works well and it's hot!

End result, job came out great, customer was amazed and I burned off the hair on my finger and got a nice chemical burn to boot!

Once again I remember why I HATE STRIPPING DECKS!!!!!!!!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

You don't see many 50 year old pro atheletes either. Physical labor is hard on the body.

Beth