Cleaning IPE

[buzzyng 14]

I just picked up a another batch of ipe wood - a local distrib is getting rid of it so I couldn't pass up the price. Anyway, after I unwrapped it (they had it covered at the warehouse), there were marks (1" across the width) from the slates in between the rows it was stacked, some areas that looked like it was watered marked, some boards had an oily substance on it, and some looked like it was moldy.

Can I use 100% percarb or do I need to mix it with sod triploy and such?

[PressurePros 248]

Homeowner alert.. lol... Hey buzzy, don't I know you from somewhere ::wink::

[RyanH 14]

buzzy,

could you possibly post some pictures of this? I will most likely be encountering a similar problem in the next few months. Sorry I can't help out now, but I'd like to learn from your trials.

RH

[buzzyng 14]

I will take some pics.

Pressure Pro - I appreciate your help on the other forums but this isn't for my house (i.e. not a homeowner alert :-) - I have already installed my deck. I've started a putting green business and this deck is an outcrop of that. We are installing a green at a partners house for display and have thought about venturing into some basic decking that compliments the green.

So, back to the ??, what amount of sod percarb should I use?

[RPetry 564]

buzzyng,

I have used 8 oz./gal. of straight sodium percarbonate to clean ipe with good results, followed with citric acid at 6 oz/gal.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if the cleaner and neutralizer are really that necessary. The wood is so dense the chems may have little effect beyond surface dirt.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The cleaning will not hurt, and if you are thinking prep for sealing (after building), then yes you need to wash first. Never seal unwashed wood...

Beth :cup: :groovy2:

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

I agree but you know the nature of ipe. Its just so hard, our normal chems may not be really effective or needed.

Would just a dash of soap in water followed by a powerwash to remove the surface dirt be just as good? I don't know, but I think its possible with ipe.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

It may well be. But, the percarb will kill off any microbial growth, and neutralization never hurts. Perhaps if we had a photo to confirm... he seemed to think there is some mold...

Beth

[Everett Abrams 501]

In the initial post mold was mentioned, this should be an instant trigger that a bleach or stripper(when mold and mildew are heavy) should be used. Also as Beth mentioned it is NEVER the right choice to just use water and coat the wood. Mold and mildew spores do not take very long to attach to the wood.

[RPetry 564]

Everett and Beth,

Conventional answers to an unconventional wood. I don't think any of us really know. As usual, I've used sodium percarbonate and citric to be "safe", but the chems and effort may be a waste. I'm in a foul, contrary mood so please bear with me.

I do have a little experience with ipe. I've purchased it, cut it, bent it, screwed it (no wisecracks please!), plugged it, sanded it, cleaned it, stripped it, brightened it, and fininshed it.

Personally, I don't think mold, mildew, or the world's nastiest wood borer has a chance against this wood. I can't even get a good long oil to penetrate it to any extent.

Ipe is as close to bulletproof as it gets. I can try banging with my largest hammer while its wet, but the wood doesn't get wet. Or, dig in the old parts box and find a small tip to see if I can make a dent at 3000 psi.

Point is, any surface mold or mildew can be probably removed by cleaning the organic dirt on the wood with a little soap, water, and a pressure washer. I really do not think at this time that any mold, mildew or other nasties can impregnate (stop those thoughts!) ipe and do damage.

[Everett Abrams 501]

If you have mold and mildew you need something to kill off the mold or mildew or you are inviting adhesion problems. You need a chem that does this and I am sorry but no matter how you slice it "detergent, water, and pressure" isn't the answer. I just so happen to know a bit about IPE and wood restoration as well and while I commend folks for trying to think out of the box this just doesn't work. Tests have proven even with bleach being used you will not remove 100% of the mold and mildew, so why would you NOT use it? Is there something better?

If you want to talk conventional versus unconventional you can read my post on the Deck Guide. Why are you even coating the IPE at all? If you have oiled the ends and installed it correctly then let it gray out. Bleach and clean when you are having your company over, because of all the characteristics you mention. By the way about unconventional, have you tried mineral oil and offer to do it more often. Mineral oil is a penetrating oil and was actually used in the old, old Thompson product. Many expert opinions are that this is the best oil for wood but because it is so penetrating you need to do it a couple of times a season.

Because the wood is different I can understand why you would consider doing something different for the coating. For cleaning, mold and mildew is mold and mildew and you get rid of it the same way.

[RPetry 564]

Everett,

I'm not going to pick an argument with you, I'll defer. You probably have more time, knowlege, and experience in wood care than most of us combined.

I'll continue to follow the party line with customers. My thoughts were that any mold or mildew present are in the surface dirt, pollen, organic material, not the wood itself. Clean off the dirt and the ipe is good to go. But you may very well be correct in that unseen spores may hinder adhesion or penetration.

Why oil ipe? Come on Everett, you know how great the wood can look with a lambswool application of Aussie oil. Does it need a finish? Absolutely not, the wood will outlast most others without it. Straight mineral oil is interesting, but I can't get to my own ipe deck once a year. The shoemaker's kids....

I have been using Anchorseal on the cuts, which is a heavy duty wax, not an oil. Am I doing something wrong?

Peace. I'm tired of fighting acrylics and conventional wisdom.

[Everett Abrams 501]

Rob,

What is amazing to me is that I have seen decks that are newly installed where the ends are cracked to ****. Some of the folks installing do not do the necessary homework on the product. If you ask 4 out 5 deck builders I would bet they didn't make money on their first one because they didn't figure in the proper labor. I went to one guy who was blowing through blades and the ends were all burnt. He thought more teeth to the blade the better to cut the IPE, which less is better. So I do agree with this and a lot of the other species of wood we see that they are all not the same. If I had an IPE deck I would only wash it and throw a coating on it when I had an event. It is most of our customers who worry about appearance, they just do not want to pay to maintain it, they feel they have spent enough on an IPE deck.

I am with you on acrylics, I hope someone soon comes up with a stripper that is as effective as sodium hydroxide is on oil, for the right price.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Love a good discussion! I have my coffee. :cup:

There is one wood boring insect that believe it or not, can attack Ipe. It's called the Marine Borer. We have never seen a deck bothered by them, but it is possible.

While the grain of the Ipe may be tight, like any wood we have seen infestations of mildew in the wood. This happens several ways. I'll give a couple of examples...

1. deck has nothing done to it, it is partly sunny and partly shaded, has a fair number of trees covering it. It rains quite a bit. Consumer never cleans it, maybe once a year blows leaves off, and never seals it. Mildew growth will be found on the shaded area on the floor, rail caps, and up to a foot on the spindals, in the splash zone. Microbial growth can penetrate the substrate, as it is not always visible to our eyes,therefore plenty small to penetrate the substrate.

2. owner builds ipe deck. owner neglects deck for a few years. owner washes deck witha pressure washer and nothing else. We'll say the exposure is as above. Owner seals the deck, partly washed. within a year, the deck is black. Owner rinses it off, same method, and puts another coat down. You now have three layers of mildew to remove, and two coats of a sealer.

Example two is real. We just finished restoring a huge Ipe deck yesterday, that did have mildew in the substrate, and it is just as hard to remove from ipe as anything else when in the wood. Applying the sealer over mildew only pulls the mildew further into the wood and makes it harder to remove.

In another thread a while back I asked what the most important ingredient is in a sealer. This is why. Personally, I think it is the biocides, mildewcides, or antifungals. These help to protect the wood and make our return trips for maintenance easier. If these fail or are a poor quality ingredient, the deck turns black. Remember the Behr suit? That was why.

More coffee....

Beth :groovy3:

[RPetry 564]

Good morning Beth & Everett,

Working on my 3rd cup of java and am in a better mood. I stand corrected. I personally have never seen mold, mildew, fungus whatever in the substrate of ipe. Course we don't have many in this area so my experience is very limited. Funny you should mention Behr's. Stripped a 16 yr. old PT deck last week. The owner claims that only Behr's was used in the past. Wood is in awful shape, many areas are hard to describe, almost like its "delaminated" with ridges, hills and valleys.

Estimate test indicated 8 oz. / gal. F-18 was adequate. Mixed one gal. and started. Did not like the results and doubled the mix. After drying, the wood was still discolored. Now I'm confused. All the old stain appears to be gone but the wood still looks bad in some areas, kind of a grey color in patches and streaks. Throw some citric on and get out of the heat.

Next morning no difference. Then I recalled the Behr's lawsuit. I believe this is the old mildewcide effect. Deep in the substate there is mildew, alive or dead I'm not sure. The deck would literally have to be picked up and dipped in NaOH for a long time to get rid of it. Sure hope they pick a dark colored stain!

As far as installation of ipe, it certainly is difficult. Just dealing with the weight of the wood is a chore. Carbide tools are a must. Straightening bowed boards is a nightmare. I spent $94 for a single 1/4 inch carbide plug cutter and had to order it from a machine shop in RI.

But when its done right, the deck is nearly indestructable and may well outlast many homes.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

A Behr deck with mildew deep in the substrate, or any wood with any failed sealer with severe mildew growth, will take more time to remove and doesn't necessarily all come out the first time you care for the deck. We have seen this on at least 4 species... Next time you do the deck it will look better.

Beth

p.s. have seen blanket mildew growth on installations of the following products:

Behr

Mesmers

Penofin

Menwood

Heads up....

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Arggg! I just got the call. Wife wants RS Natural Cedar on the old, discolored PT deck. I lobbied hard for Med. Red or Med. Brown, as I have these in stock and they are dark enough to hide the discolored areas. No pics on this one...

Worst part is I only have 5 gals. Natural Cedar in stock. Guess another run to ACR is in the cards.

Later. Gotta go to work in this miserable heat wave.

[James 624]

I do a lot of hard woods bleach is a no brainer to use- done both- No compitition bleach wins.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Forest Products Labratory says no bleach....

Not good for the lignin. I know some of you use it with great results, but it's not for us. But then again we get great results the way we do wood as well.

Hey Rick, give Tom V my best.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Beth,

I know you guys did some homes w/ Menwood, has that been a problem for you?? I used it about three yrs. ago on a handful of decks, etc. (maybe 30-40) and a few homes. The decks were a disaster; within about three months the color had totally faded and the floors were getting black. However, I saw one of the homes about two-two and a half yrs. later, and it looked pretty good. The north side was just starting to darken, but the exposed sides were holding up well. Never understood that, but the decks were a nightmare. I called and talked to the owner (who is now dead) and told him the problems, and told him I truly didn't think it was in his companies best interest to sell their product in the SE, but he said most loved it and was very dismissive of my concerns. I wasn't asking for anything; I hadn't had complaints, but the people should have been complaining. Since, I've talked with people in GA that had the same results, and I bid on a local home where the house received Menwood after it was built, and I looked at it two yrs. later, and the house was TOTALLY black (couldn't even tell what the initial color was).

So what has been your problems??

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Luckily, we have not used much of it. We did one home with it, which was surrounded by trees, and held up as well as any other home surrounded with trees would. We did a handfull of decks with it, one of them I saw today and it still looks good. Some did mildew. We are switching the owners of these decks to other products however. Personally, I don't care for the product. A lack of biocides/mildewcides/anifungals will ruin a potentially good product every time. It's not easy to tell if a finish can really go the distance if it becomes mildew infested and fails early on.

Beth

[James 624]

There is a huge difference between Ipe and cedar- And the forestry Lab has done no work with Ipe and mahogany- All there work was a few years ago. They could not answer my questions a few years ago on the wood.

Once you seal the wood its protected and pre- carbs are a waste of time. Bleach works much much better. Try it and see the advantage and watch nothing happen to the wood.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I know there is a difference between ipe and cedar. Ipe is far, far harder and more dense than cedar, cedar being a softwood, Ipe being a hardwood. But a product with a poor formula that seems to fail regardless of the wood it is applied to, is just a poor product.

Also the oils are just not long enough in my opinion to put the Menwood on Ipe. It won't penetrate well at all. Menwood is fairly thick....

Beth

[James 624]

i was commenting before manwood.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

ah....gotcha.

Beth