Woohoo! Love the way this sprays!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We did two side by side decks today. We sealed them with the new thinner release of the Wood Tux Warm Honey Gold. We can report that the new Wood Tux is quite sprayable, and easy to apply. Excellent coverage as well! A neighbor came by while we were working and had to get a card, so she could get her deck done too!

Beth

p.s. attached are before, during and after photos. Rod is spraying in one of the shots...

[Russell Cissell 65]

Great Thread !!

How can the shine be UV protection if the pigments are the UV protection?

Will the shine wear off and show traffic patterns? I can see how shine will reflect some sun, but were we not all taught at wood school that the real work here is being done by the pigments? Is this not why we buy SPF 40 instead of baby oil?? For the work of the UV protectors? Admittedly there is something quite ...impressive... about certain baby oil shines ;)

Cujo

I think perhaps it would be better stated that the shine is a result of the light refracting off of the transoxide pigments (that provide the UV protection) and passing back through the finish.

There is reflection (refraction) and therefore there will be a bit of shine whether it is semi-gloss or gloss would be a matter of perspective.

Baby oil alone would not be conducive to healthy skin conditions!

Shine good, burnt human flesh bad!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

How can the shine be UV protection if the pigments are the UV protection?

The pigments are locked in closer to the surface, rather than way down in the substraight.

As Russ mentioned, and over application will give you a topical film ( AKA Shiny spot).

Have you worked much with alkyds? If not, my suggstion is play with them, and you'll see WTW is the easiest alkyd to apply. Other alkyds are SRD and Aussie Oil. (aussie has 3 oils that I know of)

We have applied maintenance coats of WT. You do not have to strip the deck to apply a maintenance coat. We have reapplied at two years, and also had deck where we could tell them - yes, wait one more year becuase it was still holding up that well.

Beth

[Russell Cissell 65]

Great Thread !!

If WTW goes for about $140 a pail, Ready Seal for about $95, but you have to strip WTW for maintenance (it's a film former) how is this saving any $$..??

I know some folks will buy stuff based solely based on shipping costs, but I can't possibly see the two being $45.00 per pail different by UPS/FedEx.

Yes, I see the savings by being able to do a one day deck, but the real hard number savings there are not much more than a few bucks in the gas tank required for the trip back. The time to strip and seal still remain constant.

Cujo

You have to understand the two products are completely different.

Each is based on a different approach to wood preservation. Simply put, the $$ difference in is the first maintenance coat. Wood - Tux does not need to be striped, a simple wash is all that is needed. With Wood Tux WET when you return to do maintenance you will get a coverage rate MUCH HIGHER than the first time you sealed the wood. You will save money because it lasts longer and you will use far less product.

I do not follow your shipping figures. Wood Tux costs $139.00 per pail retail. To UPS the product is costly at $12.00 per pail US to most locations. However when you take advantage of UPS hundred weight service the per pail cost is reduced to much less. Most contractors who use Wood-Tux take advantage of bulk buy specials and get free freight.

There is a difference in the service life between the two products. The maintenance cycle on Wood-Tux WET is about 3 years on average.

If you want a Wood-Tux product to compare to Ready Seal look at the Wood-Tux DMC Deep Moisturizing Conditioner. It is also oil based, has transoxide pigments, dives deep into the wood, does not overlap and costs about $89.00 per pail.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Great Thread !!

Is this DMC something brand new as well or did I miss the rollout some time ago while away in my cave?

For really old, dry, and nasty wood, and having read that WTW is a film former that dries at the surface as opposed to diving deep to properly moisturize, are you suggesting a primary coat of DMC followed by a coat of WTW to achieve a proper finish?

Can WTW be applied over DMC?

Can a two step be more cost effective that a one step stain?

If this is correct, what happens to the DMC when you strip the WTW for maintenance?

Cujo

It is very rare that you find a magic bullet. The Wood-Tux line is no exception.

ESI field tests all products locally in the St. Louis market and also selects contractors from various parts of the country to test new formulations prior to their official release. DMC is currently being tested and is scheduled for general release in 2006.

Wood-Tux Wet when applied as intended will provide excellent protection for many years alone.

Problem. . .Very dry wood sucks up Wood-Tux Wet like a sponge. Wood Tux Wet costs $139.00 per pail.

Solution. . .Provide a less expensive deep penetrating oil to replenish the damaged wood and top coat it with a very thin and economical application of Wood-Tux WET.

For maintenance Wood-Tux does not need to be striped. Simply clean the surface and apply a thin maintenance coat.

[tropical wave 22]

Lots of great reading and information folks !!!

Russell, why doesnt ESI just make the WT in different colors? and eliminate the whole tinting-measuring-stirring process? for maint, in 3 years or whatever, the same exact precise tinting is needed to match what was done 3 years prior.. maybe Im a tard, but it seems like a PITA.... Im sure there is a reason, was just wondering..... :)

[Russell Cissell 65]

Mike-

By gosh that is an excellent question. If you had asked it in the FAQ thread I would be sending you 5 gallons of free soap!

Kidding. E-mail your address along with your pick. . .HD-80, EFC-38 or Citralic brightener/neutralizer and I will send it out to show our appreciation for helping update out FAQ list.

The Wood-Tux line, consists of products that are oil based and utilize a transparent oxide pigment system. Because the finish is semitransparent the color of the wood will determine the final color of the finish.

The most common problem a contractor faces when offering a selection of colors is the customer feeling that the end result does not match the color they chose. To eliminate this Wood-Tux is tinted to the popular Warm Honey Gold color. If the contractor feels there needs to be a touch of black or a dab of red added to achieve the most beautiful finish you simply tint it in the field.

There is no concern about "matching" the previous color of Wood-Tux. You are only worried about how the Deck or Siding looks. You may wish to go with the same or even a lighter application for a maintenance coat.

The customer hires you because you are the wood restoration professional. You are the one who knows best how to deliver the look they will want.

This means less time at the closing table choosing between "dark" brown and "chocolate" brown. Less occurence of customers withholding payment because "that isn't the color we choose" and more controll over what the neighbors and potential customers are going to see as a representation of YOUR work.

Warm Honey Gold looks great on most wood types. For yellow or white wood a little black will take you towards brown. You can use the combination of Red and Back to Hide Blemishes, Create Depth, Match New & Old Wood and more.

The tint system will also allow you to save money by allowing you to take advatage of bulk shipping deals without having to guess at what colors you will need.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Russell,

Thanks for getting right back with your replies. Very insightful into the WTW world.

Please help me understand some more.

Simply put, Wood-Tux Wet is a deep penetrating oil based stain that dries at the surface to lock in the oils and biocides. It will only form a "film" if several coats are applied. It was designed to be applied in one saturating coat.

I think perhaps it would be better stated that the shine is a result of the light refracting off of the transoxide pigments (that provide the UV protection) and passing back through the finish.

There is no doubt that WTW forms a film at the first layer. When applied correctly, there is a definite shine, a durable top finish, and a very attractive look. Some of my clients wish this. Perhaps we are picking nits here, but I have been taught, as have countless others, that any product which finishes with a shine, a topcoat, or a hard top layer is indeed a film forming finish.

You say that WTW does not need to be stripped to be refinished, just washed..but washed with what? EFC-38? Don't get me wrong, I use EFC-38 almost every day and enjoy the work it does, but I also know that EFC-38 IS a stripper.

Now stripping the top shiny layer off for maint. isn't a bad thing necessarily, it just is what it is.. It's got to be done and granted you are not removing the tint down deep in the wood, but you gotta do the prep right..

My shipping comparisons were not necessarily real shipping numbers.. just showing the difference in price at the cash register while following up a point made earlier about the profitability of the product... If you missed it, I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.

Beth,

Yes we have worked with Alkyds before and YES WTW is very easy to work with in the Alkyd world. BTW, alkyds ARE film formers and you have helped me to make my point that WTW is a film former. Thanks :)

Russell,

I DO like the potential for WTW and will continue to offer it in my line. Thanks again for all the fresh input.

Gotta run for now,, off to work..

Cujo

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I use EFC-38 almost every day and enjoy the work it does, but I also know that EFC-38 IS a stripper.

Hi Cujo,

Try cleaning with it at a lower concentration, and cut your dwell time. You should get the result you are looking for. I would not be surprised if ESI were to release a plain percarb cleaner. I think it would fit well into the suite.

Not arguing that it forms a protective barrier at all. But to me, and I think this is the difference in language here, a true film former lays on top of the wood - Sikken Cetol DEK, Wolman Extreme, etc...I differentiate between close to the surface and a slippery top coat, if that makes the description any clearer.

I also happen to believe that if you moisturize and then put the barrier coat on (DMC and Tux) you get the ultimate in protection. The parafinic oil systems make better sense to me as a step one product...

Beth

[JFife 14]

Cujo--

Perhaps what is hanging you up is the difference between a "drying" and "non-drying" finish. Readyseal does not dry, therefore it is impossible to create any sort of film whatsoever. So with the WTW, I assume what is being said is that it penetrates, and dries once in the wood. Is this a film?? Depends on your definition in my opinion. For this reason, many say TWP is a film-former. I disagree, but it may be more of a battle of semantics than anything. Like Beth, when I think "film former" i think products like Sikkens DEK and CETOL. Most waterbase products are also film-formers.

At the risk of being offensive, you've mentioned a few times what was learned in "Wood School." May I submit the idea that perhaps a salesman that is doing a class on restoration and selling the products at the same time may not be the most unbiased resource?? Not to mention having no background in coating research/theory?? Perhaps this instructor was right, perhaps wrong, but I'd at least allow my self out of the box a little bit to consider that there may be more than one way to skin a wooden cat. Don't get me wrong, I think RS is a great product, and were it not for some of my perceived flaws with the product, I'd probably use it a lot more.

IMO, there is not that perfect product. I'm not trying to add credentials to the WTW infomercial here, as I have not used the product. From reading the info so far, there are reasons I probably would not try it (imo). But all have flaws, and you just have to figure what works best for you and your methods/biz. I have two collegues that refinish decks and log homes. Both charge about the same, both use similar products. One swears he cannot make money doing log homes, and is faaaar more profitable restoring decks. The other guy hates decks, says he cannot make money on them for anything, but tears it up on log homes. Why is this?? I have absolutely no idea. But you just find what works, and run with it.

[Russell Cissell 65]

There is no doubt that WTW forms a film at the first layer.

I suppose we could pick some nits about this point. I do not consider WTW a film former. I am guessing that most of what you were taught about "Film forming" stains would not apply.

When it comes to our products you have to think a bit outside the box. We do not take the traditional approach to formulation here. That is why virtually every one of our wood restoration products has been an innovation.

There s a bit of shine and the product does lock up the surface. Take a moment and look at it from another angle.

WTW does not form a film because: There should be no build up past the surface of the wood. There is nothing above the surface of the wood to crack or peel. After curing you can scratch a "film" off the surface and expose bare wood. If you dig into the wood and scratch WTW you will see more WTW and shortly after you walk away that area you scratched will harden again.

You say that WTW does not need to be stripped to be refinished, just washed..but washed with what? EFC-38? Don't get me wrong, I use EFC-38 almost every day and enjoy the work it does, but I also know that EFC-38 IS a stripper.

Now stripping the top shiny layer off for maint. isn't a bad thing necessarily, it just is what it is.. It's got to be done and granted you are not removing the tint down deep in the wood, but you gotta do the prep right..

Yes, you have to prep the surface and here again you will see another difference between WTW and a "film" forming finish. To prep a true film forming product you have to carefully strip the entire surface or you will get a very uneven maintenance coat.

When you go out to do maintenance on a WTW deck you wash the surface but the idea is to leave as much of the product in the wood as possible. Mostly you are just washing away the dirt and grime and helping to open the surface. I would not recommend applying any product to a dirty substrate.

The maintenance coat is not going to lay on top of what is already there, it is going to blend in and become one with what is already there. I will give you another example of why WTW it NOT a film forming stain. Assume that a home owner has applied three coats of a film forming stain. When you begin to strip that back to bare wood it is possible to strip one layer at a time and end up with a splotchy mess if you do not allow the stripper to dwell long enough to emulsify all three layers over the entire surface area.

You might also see areas where the stain has completely worn off before you even start to strip. There could be cracking, flaking or peeling in the finish. You will not see this with WTW.

Now a note on EFC-38. EFC-38 is my favorite product in our wood restoration suite. It is the most under utilized product that we manufacture. EFC-38 will in fact strip may types of finishes is very safe for the wood, the user and the environment. EFC-38 is entirely unique in the wood restoration market. There is a misconception that EFC-38 is just a percarbonate. This is simply not true. EFC-38 is what happens when you give the ESI development team the following criteria.

Design a product that is:

Mild enough to stir with your hand.

Safe enough to spill in the grass.

Aggressive enough to strip the most common finishes.

pH balanced such the it will not require neutralization.

(Note: While it is true that EFC-38 self neutralizes, it can still cause the wood to darken because at a point the pH is quite high, therefore you may choose to apply a Brightener/Neutralizer on some jobs to bring out more of the woods natural beauty.)

At full strength EFC-38 will strip. At half strength it will perform much like a straight percarbonate. This is the most versatile formula we've ever created. It can be used in a wide range of cleaning tasks. Works well as a house wash, mild concrete cleaner, carpet spotter, tarp softener you just have to play with the dilution ratios.

When you use EFC-38 to clean a WTW deck prior to applying a maintenance coat try this. Mix it at 1/3 cup per gallon apply to the entire deck and then rinse with a very low pressure. If there is not a heavy build up of grime a garden hose should suffice. If you use your PW either go to a larger tip size to drop the pressure or stay back and "power rinse."

Remember it is not necessary for you to do anything to the WTW all you need to do is clean the surface. If you don't want to use EFC-38 you can use any other mild cleaner you wish. In many cases you can probably use plain water. The idea is just to remove any dirt or oil from the surface before you lay down your WTW.

The first time or two that you do a maintenance job with WTW as you apply your finish you will probably back brush and remove more product than you leave on the wood. You only need enough (less than 2 mil) to cause the reaction that is going to lock up the surface (no film). If it looks like there is a film you have over applied. Use a rag or dry stain pad to remove the excess stain. If it seems like it is taking way too long to dry to the touch, you have over applied. Again use a rag or dry pad to remove the excess. If the surface feels sticky you can dampen your rag or pad with a bit of mineral spirits.

I really hope all this typing is helping rather than serving to further confuse folks. If I may remove my contractor support hat and step into a sales position for a sec. . .

Pick up a pail of Wood-Tux WET today and see for yourself the quality of this product. I can promise You will be impressed upon application and delighted when you discover how fast and easy and profitable your maintenance trips are.

[Henry B. 4]

Jon,

Ready Seal doesn't dry?? I think I misunderstood you or something. Ready Seal dries quite well after it penetrates the surface and sets up, I'm surprised to hear someone say that.

I'm not sure where everyone else took wood restoration courses at but I've taken quite a few of them for various products and services. The only one I didn't take by a manufacturer was my PWNA wood certification course. There are no brand names suggested or used in any PWNA class so pushing a product wasn't an issue. I agree that in many other courses that's not quite true but it's just business and it's expected.

What's your experience with Ready Seal that would make you believe it never dries?

[JFife 14]

Henry,

Perhaps I am wrong, and if I am I'll stand corrected. But in theory, if you poured motor oil on a deck, it would not "dry" as in form a hard barrier. Many oil base stains perform like this....RS is one of them. Pierce (i think) told me one time that in theory, if enough RS was applied to a deck, in time it would leech out the bottom of the board. While I have no idea if this is true or not, the theory is interesting. But what I meant was, that RS does not dry in the sense of Sikkens SRD or something like that. SRD dries for an hour, and the second coat applies on like paint, no penetration at all. RS will always pentrate, at least until the substate won't accept any more, and that is because it never creates a barrier.

....And this is not a bad thing, it can be great for different applications. This makes for a great deck finish, and makes for easy application. Non-dryers are more suceptible to fungi growth, but RS combats that well.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I believe Jon is correct.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have had the same convo as Jon with peirce and have been told the same. After using RS and responding to a number of call backs due to it being over absorbed, Ready seal does not appear to have a drier incorporated into its formulation. It remains tacky. There have been other posts of people talking about how ready seal was washed out after a rain and they had to reapply it. One in particular had to pay to have a pool cleaned and refilled because it washed into it after a rain.

Not all "film" forming is created equal. If anyone has ever noticed when an acrylic has been applied and starts to crack and peel it takes the pigment out of the wood with it because it is not thermally coefficient (dynamically) to match the expansion and contraction of the wood. WTW does not perform in the same way as acrylics, latex, enamel etc...by becoming so hard that it can not flex with the wood. WTW has a better thermal coefficient to allow it to expand and contract with the wood better.

Although it does not completely match the thermal coefficient, its resin system works well under our clients deck situations and has out performed many of the other products we have tried.

I dont get hung up on the fact that it can form a film but the fact that after 2 years I can come back and wash it with efc-38 or hd-80 @ 2oz/gal and get the surface clean while pigment is still obviously present in the wood and the recoat does not look uneven as with the other film formers formerly mentioned.

Great Q&A session here...

Rod~

[PressurePros 249]

It was posted above that one should use what works best for them. While I found Ready Seal to be child's play to apply, I found it's one coat coverage to be less than adequate. I did maybe ten decks with it and got two call backs. That ratio was enough to make me run. One call was, it's been three weeks and my deck is very faded. The other was, my white carpet is ruined by my back entrance. It has footprints tracked in from the sealer you used. This was after two months by the way.

I am not bad mouthing Ready Seal, it also has it's place but it is not the panacea for every deck that comes down the pike. I cringe a bit at the term film former too. It is ingrained in every wood professional to avoid these like the plague. The fact is, if you combine a film former with a penetrating oil you get the best of all world's.. deep conditioning with pigment drawn below the surface and a moisture barrier to lock it in. If that barrier could be formulated to not peel, in my opinion you have bliss.

Is Wood Tux this product? I have to admit I have my own skepticism, but then again I don't understand thermal coefficients and resin alkyd systems. If one can make a product achieve the above mentioned wood protection AND provide infinite moisture content flexibility with application... at the very least it's worth listening to with an open mind.

[Henry B. 4]

My concern with the comment was that new guys may have been confused by it. It sounded like he was saying the surface of the wood would never dry so it couldn't be walked on. Thanks for clearing that up Jon!

From everything I've seen and heard Ready Seal and Wood Tux are both great products.

I won't choose sides on products or try judging a product I haven't worked with either, that wouldn't be very fair or smart. My comment about it being a little shiny was meant to be a compliment because I really did like it!

Maybe it's just that the oils in ready seal penetrate in the wood so deep renewing the woods dried out oils that it doesn't sit on the surface. That's what I'm looking for in a product and I've been told that Wood Tux is also a great penetrator.

I've been using Ready Seal for a long time now and never had any problems with the surface being wet. Good thing too, my wife would kill me if we tracked oil onto her carpet or pergo floor!!

[PressurePros 249]

To be fair to Ready Seal, the experience with the tracking problem could have been my fault. It was done after the first customer complained about fading so I put much more down on this lady's deck. The other eight decks I did with Ready Seal initially had no complaints and I did maintenance on all of them this past spring. Unfortunately, all were very faded, and in keeping with my two year gurantee, I stripped and applied an alternate product at a reduced rate. Knee jerk reaction on my part...Like Jon said, different contractor, different results. It just doesn't meet my needs. Cost of sealer is irrelevant to me, I pass it on to the customer. I need a product with one coat coverage and durability. Customers already know that using any quality retail product is going to cost them $30-$50 per gallon if they were to buy it themselves.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Here's a photo taken at 10 months. Another company applied RS to this deck. At 7 months we visited the deck and left an estimate with a very frustrated homeowner. You can see why if you look where the cushion box was, as opposed to the rest of the boards.

Personally, I think RS is a great moisturizer. No doubt about that. But it's not holding up at the surface on this deck. I am sure however that father into the wood it is moisturizing.

This is what intrigues me about the concept of two step sealing. I personally don't think it is possible to have one sealer do everything a deck may need. But a mositurizer with a finish over top that cure closer to the surface, now that might be somthing to look into.

Beth

[PressurePros 249]

The previous contractor should have explained that no pigment = grey deck. I don't think this was an issue with Ready Seal, just the customer's desire for a clear.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Um....this was not the clear that was applied. It was the gold. The customer was told it would last two years on the floor.

Beth

[PressurePros 249]

Um....this was not the clear that was applied. It was the gold. The customer was told it would last two years on the floor.

Beth

::laughing:: then I stand totally corrected!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I will also say in defense of RS, that you could still smell it in the wood, it was in there. It does moisturize down deep in the wood.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Regarding the pic Beth just posted......I'll blame contractor workmanship for that one. I've not used a lot of RS (maybe 600 gallons or so) but I've used enough to know that is not a fair representation of the product. I won't pretend to know what that contractor did, but a clear sealer would look better than that if applied properly. The decks I've done with RS looked exactly the same after one year as they did when freshly coated. No fading on the floor at all. Why?? I don't know, prep, app., whatever. At two years, the floor looks faded and dry, but in no way offensive. I get the same results with TWP. Like I said, just not a fair representation of the durability of RS. Yes, there are things I don't like about it, but for the most part, it is a great product and definitely has it's place with the budget-conscious contractor that has employees applicating.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

To me the interesting thing even if underapplied, is that it was still moisturizing at a deeper level. Like I said, personal feeling here is that it is best as a moisturizer. This does show you that it doesn't lock in at the top. Doesn't appear that it cures there or dries at the surface. But then again, should a moisturizer dry, or is that contradictory to mosturizing? See what I mean? Look where the cusion box was. But, there is no doubt at all it is in there. It was a really good example of it still being in the wood, despite the surface appearance.

Beth

[JFife 14]

okay, I'll throw one at ya Beth......what good is "moisturizing??" I've alluded to this before, I've heard the sales pitches about "replenishing lost oils, or sugars, or fats, or whatever" but in the grand scheme of things, what exactly do you feel that is providing?? The wood will crack and split less since it is loaded with oil?? Oil and water don't mix, so eliminating water from the rot equation (wood+air+water+heat=rot) will make the wood last indefinitely?? I've wanted to debate this for a while, so I'm anxious to hear what everyone has to say (not just proposing this to Beth)