weep holes troubles

[JBenson 14]

I recently washed a house with white vinyl siding, i used an X-jet. A couple days later i got a call about stains on the siding and i went to look and it was where water came out the weep holes in the bottom of the siding. It was mostly towards the top of the house so i imagine it has to do with the angle of the water as it hits the bottom of the siding and the lower your washing you hit the face of the siding head on. I spray with the seams and not into them so i know that is not where it gets in. This all came about after i left the homeowner happy. What did i do wrong and how do you prevent this. Thank you in advance. One more question, I can not get bug poop stains off the siding, i even scrubbed with a bristled brush and the homeowner swears they will come off but this has been on the siding for a long time, i think the stains penetrated the siding, what do you think.

[Jeff 232]

Sometimes the weep holes you cant avoid this happening and you just have to let it dry a little then hit them again quick or if it isnt everywhere you can just brush the debris off. Like you said just ry to avoid shooting them

as for the bug poop you cant get off, Do you know about Shotgun/artillary fungus. it looks simular, but is impossible or near impossible to get off, its a fungus that can shot up to 20-30 feet and it can come from a bad batch of mulch. Its usaully tiny like black/brown spot and you can pick it off with your finger and it will still have a stain left behind it. Scrubbing doesnt touch it. Do a google search on Shotgun Fungus , theres some articles out there about this stuff, as soon as i see it I point it out to the customer and tell them i cant do anything about it and I tell them to look it up on computer

[JBenson 14]

Thanks for the tip Jeff, The only thing i am bothered about is the fact that the house had alot of bugs and crap on it and he is one of the customers that says, and i quote " When sparkle wash did it it looked like new, and jesse i am not Sh*&%ing you. The other tought part about this guy is he thinks everything is going to look like new, on all three things i washed he said that they looked like new last time. I know these have not been maintained for atleast 5 years, one surface was painted concrete, If we can make everything look like new then painters, siders, roofers....ect would have no place for work, and this is my firts customer so i also wonder if i didnt do enough homework before i started. I have the right equipment and have been reading these boards for atleast 4 months now and i was confident i could do it. Frustration, but i am not giving up, some people are just unpleasable.

[tropical wave 22]

i imagine it has to do with the angle of the water as it hits the bottom of the siding and the lower your washing you hit the face of the siding head on.

Bingo....... its pretty much like Jeff said. Or stand back further so your not shooting straight up, or use an extension wand so your hitting the siding straight on. The soap leaking out is worse than the rinse water leaking out, the soap will leave more of a visible drip.

[Jeff 232]

Thanks for the tip Jeff, The only thing i am bothered about is the fact that the house had alot of bugs and crap on it and he is one of the customers that says, and i quote " When sparkle wash did it it looked like new, and jesse i am not Sh*&%ing you. The other tought part about this guy is he thinks everything is going to look like new, on all three things i washed he said that they looked like new last time. I know these have not been maintained for atleast 5 years, one surface was painted concrete, If we can make everything look like new then painters, siders, roofers....ect would have no place for work, and this is my firts customer so i also wonder if i didnt do enough homework before i started. I have the right equipment and have been reading these boards for atleast 4 months now and i was confident i could do it. Frustration, but i am not giving up, some people are just unpleasable.

To bad your first customer is a PITA, but really dont let it frustrate you to much, if you know you did a good job, just move on. I figure if the other company he's talking about did such a great job, why didnt he have them do it this time. You'll be nervous for quite a few jobs to come, if your just starting out. Its natural. But as you do more jobs and learn technique and what to look for it gets easier. After a dozen or so houses that your happy with, it will get you some confindence. Hey you might even make some mistakes, but your lucky you have these BBS's to come to. Ask questions all you want before and after jobs. Everybody is willing to help I'm sure

How do you do your house washes. Do you Xjet, what kind of chems are you useing and whats the ratio

Good luck

JL

[Lou Beach 14]

Glad someone else has had this issue. This occured on the very first house I washed, which was a relatives house. I finished the the housewash and it looked great. I went into the house for about an hour and when I came back out there was this staining running down the sides of the vinyl.

I wondered what the heck I had done wrong. Now I know.

[JeffW 14]

I've been washing houses for ten years now and I'll tell you this,....everyone on here will give you the good advice you need but there is still nothing like experience in the field.Just work through the problems as they come up and try not to get to frustrated or down on yourself because it's going to take some learning until you're completely comfortable with your work.As far as the staining is concerned,....there are things you can do to help minimize the chance of it happening but I've found that some houses do it and some don't.The next time you do a house try to watch as it's drying and if you see the problem coming lightly mist the problem area before it dries,this will help disperse it.Easier to deal with this problem while it's still wet.You'll soon learn to spot areas that may be a problem.As far as the bug crap,....it would be nice to see a picture of this because I agree with Jeff about the possibilty of artillery fungus.If you're talking about the staining that is left behind after you have removed the bug crap, simple bleach and water sprayed on these ares will make them disappear,makes the difference between a good job and a great job.Hope this helps.

[Everett Abrams 501]

You guys bring up a topic that I have not spoken up about enough but it bothers the heck out of me. X-jets and different types of chemical injectors are great tools. In my opinion though they are ONLY tools that help speed up time and make it easier to apply chemicals, at a lower pressure to a large area. This is it, not for anything else. I see more and more people posting and in person that use these tools to actually wash. Apply chemical, close valve, change tip or for the M5 they turn the nozzle and rinse. Two problems for me with this, the first is that you do no justice to elevated problem areas like dormers and gable vents. The person who actually gets up and washes and actually sees up close the results WILL do a better job. Secondly, you are simply washing from the WRONG angle. While you should wash from a higher angle than the siding to prevent as much water as possible from running down and it will not loosen the siding, there are times where you need to get the bottom lip of the siding. This should not be done from the ground, it should be done with just a slight angle below the lip and not directly below. I have seen a lot of "popped" seams and where two pieces come together where people tell me that the washer did everything from the ground. This is just my feeling but even with extension poles, a ladder and getting up close is still the way to go for results as well as customer perception. The customer "thinks" that I do a better job regardless if they are the same or not. We still can do an average house in about two hours with this method. Just my opinion and how we do it.

[Jeff 232]

You guys bring up a topic that I have not spoken up about enough but it bothers the heck out of me. X-jets and different types of chemical injectors are great tools. In my opinion though they are ONLY tools that help speed up time and make it easier to apply chemicals, at a lower pressure to a large area. This is it, not for anything else. I see more and more people posting and in person that use these tools to actually wash. Apply chemical, close valve, change tip or for the M5 they turn the nozzle and rinse. Two problems for me with this, the first is that you do no justice to elevated problem areas like dormers and gable vents. The person who actually gets up and washes and actually sees up close the results WILL do a better job. Secondly, you are simply washing from the WRONG angle. While you should wash from a higher angle than the siding to prevent as much water as possible from running down and it will not loosen the siding, there are times where you need to get the bottom lip of the siding. This should not be done from the ground, it should be done with just a slight angle below the lip and not directly below. I have seen a lot of "popped" seams and where two pieces come together where people tell me that the washer did everything from the ground. This is just my feeling but even with extension poles, a ladder and getting up close is still the way to go for results as well as customer perception. The customer "thinks" that I do a better job regardless if they are the same or not. We still can do an average house in about two hours with this method. Just my opinion and how we do it.

Everett, you use ladders and extension poles on all your house washings. Isnt that a real pain and can you get every area that well. Im sure you do great work of course, but it seems like to much work and a better chance of injury being on a ladder so much. Ive seen guys that use ladders all over a house and it seems that you actually would see less, because you are so close to the house. I get customers all the time that tellme thier house has never been done so well and the last guy did it with a ladder and didnt get the peaks well at all. I use a ladder if I have to but, I like the Xjet and sometimes chem. injecter, with know problem at all and if theres a problem with siding, popping off, which there very rarley is, its always because of crappy instillation. Im not putting down the way you do it, it just seems like alot of extra work for me, If I was to do it that way. I can get the same clean results from my cleaning and usually the customers are amazed at the Xjet at work

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195&highlight=artillery+fungus

This is a must read.

Beth

[Everett Abrams 501]

Jeff,

To be clearer we use the X-jet to apply chemicals on buildings, we do not wash or rinse with the X-jet. We rarely use an extension pole. Ladders and harnesses are my preferred equipment choices. If you use ladder extensions at the top of the ladders it puts you "away" from the house. Again, it is my opinion that a person on the ground can not do as good of a job as one who uses a ladder. I honestly have NEVER done a house(more than one story) or building where I did not need a ladder for some reason. I also take into account the perception value of the customer and for me the decision is easy.

I am certainly not alone on this as many of my competitors do the same. The largest competitior of home and buildings in my area sells hand scrubbing as necessary on all buildings. That not all areas can be cleaned by the pressure washer. That on all homes there is something or some area that should be hand scrubbed or washed prior to the washing with a pressure washer. I do not disagree. To often I see people merely throw on chemicals and rinse and tell the customer that it is the "best it will come up" when in fact rust stains, egg stains, etc. should be scrubbed first before pressure washing for a better end result. Again, these are my opinions and how my company performs. I am not saying that if you do it another way you are doing a "bad" job. This is how I position my company to do the job to what I feel is the optimal level.

[PressurePros 249]

Everett, is that the only time you would hand scrub a portion of siding (egg removal, tough stains, etc) or do you brush and close wash the entire house?

[Everett Abrams 501]

Actually I was not going to go this far into this as I do things differently than most. I sell the customer on more frequent cleanings at a reduced price from the original price, or than a one time price. I sell them on "maintaining" the appearance as well as preventing the need for higher pressure washing in the future. In other words, if you keep up with the cleaning and maintaining of the siding or substrate the less pressure and aggressive you need to be on the next cleaning. A further example of this is with stucco and drivit. Many customers say they do not want the stucco or drivit cleaned because of the damage it can cause. Many customers want three sides of a house done and not the stucco for the same reasons. Here is the annoying part that I run into, contractors agreeing with them! This is not the reason to not wash or clean it is an opportunity to sell what we do. The more frequent you wash the less build up and the less agressive you need to be. So on repeat visits you can pretty much just apply chems, allow to dwell, and then lightly rinse and go for a "maintenance" price. What I mentioned above is for onetime cleaning which I commented on my opinions above. So to answer your question Ken, I do whatever is necessary to clean a surface with the least amount of pressure or potential damage to a surface. If this includes precleaning or scrubbing problem areas first, yes that is what we do. I can honestly say that I rarely clean a building or home on the first cleaning where I did not need a ladder or prescrub and clean some area.

I do not know how many people when they go to building or residential cleanings try and "sell" the customer on the benefits of more frequent cleanings and trying to create more income. I do not know of any companies who do and why I was not going to even comment. When I leave a job they know what the price will be on the next visit(s) and in what time frame it must be done in to get that price. I'd much rather take care of the customer I already have and build my business this way then to constantly market and have to bring in new customers.

[Jeff 232]

I agree on more frequent cleaning, thats how I do all the banks i do, I do them every six months building and all walkways. There is hardly anything to clean off them. It takes half the time to clean them then the first time. I do alot of complexes and it wouldnt be cost effective for me to do them in such detail, althou egg stains (Halloween is soon), I do use ladder and hand wash. Everyone has thier best way to do things. Id like to see you work some day Everitt I dont get the ates you folks get up north. I know I use to get good money for house washing many years ago in Mass.

JL

[Barry M 73]

Personally I think it's a new school old school thing. I'm sure back in the day you had to get up there and scrub the house, but now with the x-jet and better chems it's usually not necessary. My chems, shot out of the x-jet, will melt and rinse off almost anything that you might otherwise scrub. I do get the feeling sometimes that the homeowner is very skeptical when they don't see me up on a ladder scrubbing, but their skeptism is crushed when they see the results. To me it's all about using the proper mix of chemicals, not the pressure or scrubbing. Just my opinion.

[Everett Abrams 501]

Personally I think it's a new school old school thing. I'm sure back in the day you had to get up there and scrub the house, but now with the x-jet and better chems it's usually not necessary.

I disagree, X-Jets make it "less necessary", not "usually" Also, how are the chemicals that much better? Bleaches and detergants have changed that much? This is no different than any other application. If you can wash from the ground and it is easy that is one thing however, most of the time the buildings and homes are very moldy, dirty, etc. and I am saying old school or new school that there are areas that need more attention than standing on the ground as much as the "new schoolers" do. The other issue is you should not be spraying water at increased pressure from the type of angle most do from the ground to the second floor.

To me it's all about using the proper mix of chemicals, not the pressure or scrubbing. Just my opinion.

Agreed on chemical usage and not pressure. Do you ever wonder why many directions use the word "agitiate" when working with chemicals and cleaners. This means they need scrubbing. If you really think you can clean rust, acid rain, jet fuel, mold, mildew, algae, dirt, clay stains, egg residue, etc. without scrubbing and using ladders at times then I am disagreeing with you. Again, these are just my opinions.

By the way, I am assuming you are calling me old school. Thanks for making me feel an old, almost 42! LOL :lgsad:

Time to go watch some football!

Good discussion.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I find that the approach Everett has mentioned in maintenance is actually better and less invasive. Every once in a while one may come upon a home that has just been neglected and requires more than just a splash and dash.

Angles of attack are important when working on siding and taking the easy route does not mean one can always get the best results nor does it mean that you will get the job again in the future.

These weep holes are not designed to handle the amounts of water that can be introduced behind the siding under high pressure and that is a factor you need to consider before working on any house. The water will actually cascade behind the siding and then have the potential to 'wick up' behind the tyvek or other insulation into the substructure boarding which is plywood. What happens when plywood absorbs moisture? What conditions do mold and mildew like to live in?

Everett if you don't mind me coining your terminology...It is vandalism to consciously create this type of condition on someones home.

Plus the fact that one could actually void a manufacturers warranty by doing the job incorrectly as I have been informed by the mfrs. I have spoken with in my research.

Surface agitation is often the most effective method in my opinion. Agreed, some homes do not afford access in order to clean properly and the money called for in a bid is not usually acceptable to most homeowners. But education of the methods that work the best and which are looked at as acceptable by mfrs of siding is food for thought for any discerning homeowner who cares about the longterm effects and care of their siding investment.

Rod~

[mikew 14]

You guys bring up a topic that I have not spoken up about enough but it bothers the heck out of me. X-jets and different types of chemical injectors are great tools. In my opinion though they are ONLY tools that help speed up time and make it easier to apply chemicals, at a lower pressure to a large area. This is it, not for anything else. I see more and more people posting and in person that use these tools to actually wash. Apply chemical, close valve, change tip or for the M5 they turn the nozzle and rinse. Two problems for me with this, the first is that you do no justice to elevated problem areas like dormers and gable vents. The person who actually gets up and washes and actually sees up close the results WILL do a better job. Secondly, you are simply washing from the WRONG angle. While you should wash from a higher angle than the siding to prevent as much water as possible from running down and it will not loosen the siding, there are times where you need to get the bottom lip of the siding. This should not be done from the ground, it should be done with just a slight angle below the lip and not directly below. I have seen a lot of "popped" seams and where two pieces come together where people tell me that the washer did everything from the ground. This is just my feeling but even with extension poles, a ladder and getting up close is still the way to go for results as well as customer perception. The customer "thinks" that I do a better job regardless if they are the same or not. We still can do an average house in about two hours with this method. Just my opinion and how we do it.

Hi Everett,

How much pressure are you using up close to do the rinsing?

Thanks,

Mike

[Celeste 341]

The issues of ladders, extension poles, agitation, etc... are great! We do not employ our downstreamer or x-jets for anything more than chemical application, however, to avoid using ladders, we will use extension wands and their attachments such as brushes for rinsing or scrubbing. This method is not for everyone either - that pole can get heavy! We actually use our not leaving the ground as a sell point but we also are fully aware that it cannot always be done this way!

Celeste

[PressurePros 249]

I don't doubt for a minute that you can get to the next level of clean by hand scrubbing a surface. The question to me becomes when does prefectionism cross the line of profit margin? In comparison we may be talking about detailing a vehicle undercarriage just to go driving in the rain. Yes, you can get that top 6 feet of siding just as clean as the bottom six feet by jumping on a ladder and agitating the detergent. Will the homeowner notice the difference? More importantly, is he willing to pay for it? And.. how long does it last? Three good rainfalls? Ten? How about that first wind gust followed by sideways driven rain?

My mother is an obessive Italian with old school cleaning style. To this day she wouldn't dream of mopping her floor, she gets on her hands and knees and scrubs from corner to corner. If she were to go into the housecleaning business she would go broke or she would have to charge so much she would never gain any market share. But that "get into the corners" mentality still sits with me.

I personally don't agree with the splash/dash mentality of getting a 4500 square foot house done in under two hours with an X-Jet. But, if I am going to get into perfectionist detailing it is going to be on making sure the concrete foundation is spotless or making sure the white iron rail on the porch is just as clean as the house (ie stuff that will actually be viewed up close).

We all have our niches and I think that's what makes most of the guys here successful. Making yourself unique is the key to long term profitability and retaining customer base. Everett, if you can get a house done with ladders achieving top to bottom spotless clean in under two hours, that is incredible. I strive for that level of efficiency. I'd love to cross the bridge and come see you guys in action.

[tropical wave 22]

This is a great topic.....

The x-jet sure has its place, we've done houses that were pretty clean to begin with, just a bit of mildew and surface dirt which required nothing more than an x-jet low pressure soaping, dwell, low pressure x-jet rinse and the mild dirt that was there pretty much melts away. (and as nice as those are to run across, it almost feels like its too easy) on many days that is not a bad thing :) But there is no way the surface of the siding is getting as clean as if each row of siding was rinsed with a "fan" of water from a regular nozzle, at a better angle than from below, but like I said earlier, that isnt always needed. Don't get me wrong, I use the x-jet exclusivley plenty, but there are times (many) where that isnt the approach we use. We'll x-jet the soap, dwell and break out the regular wands (from extension, 10 foot, 6 foot, 3 foot) pop in the old 40 or 25 degree nozzle and rinse, row by row. If that is whats needed, thats what we'll do, in the grand scheme of things it doesnt take all that much longer anyway....longer yes, but not so much to make it really painful on the bottom line....

here are some lines from a publication that many have heard before, just putting it out there for the heck of it-----

"Splash and Dash refers to the person that splashes bleach or chlorine on the house, rinses and leaves. There are various levels of clean, and various qualities of work"

"If you are working on a tall house, use ladders or an extension wand. Do not use an x-jet type nozzle because it will force detergents under the siding. To properly wash houses you need to pressure wash each row of siding and pattern clean. This cant be accomplished with an x-jet. An x-jet nozzle is great for the "splash and dash", but when using real detergent products it will force the detergent underneath the siding where it will emulsify (dissolve) pollutants and cause them to drip out over the siding later." and it goes on and on, blah blah blah.......

these quotes certainly arent from the pressure cleaning bible, but the thread tickeled something in my pea brain and recalled this article, thought I'd "put it out there"........... and, whether anybody agrees or not, or does things differently isnt the point, just relaying what is in print. and if we can find it in print, homeowners can find it too. granted we're the professionals and some homeowner isnt going to tell us how to do our job, but perception is a big deal.....if it looks clean from the ground, is it clean 25 feet up? If you "educate" a customer that the "new way" is great soaps and an x-jet with no ladders or long wands needed, and you leave and the house dries looking good (from the gound) and he/she opens a window upstairs and wipes a hand across the siding and comes up with fingertips of grime, he'll be thinking to himself, "I knew that looked to easy"........

This isnt x-jet debate, it falls under the thread title and question about weep holes and staining.....

P.S. we use the x-jet a lot (wanted to clarify that, again)

[PressurePros 249]

Mike, I remember reading that when I first found message boards for this business. I also remember getting slammed on another "network" for suggesting that the X-Jet wasn't the be-all-end-all for cleaning. It is exactly right to say the -Jet is a tool for housecleaning but not the panacea for every situation you run into. Mike, have you ever run into a situation where even up close washing was not enough? I'm talking about where you have to break out the brush and actually break the dirt bond.

[JeffW 14]

I'm glad loight has been shed on this subject because I see so much talk about x-jetting on here I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who scrubbed every house from "head to toe". I have been doing houses this way since I started ten years ago, no matter the degree of dirtiness of the house.Back in August I mentioned the use of a commpressed air sprayer for applying my cleaner.I have a stationary cleaner tank on my trailer and a hose reel connected to it.I take the cleaner wand and the brush up the ladder with me,spray the on the cleaner, hang the wand over a rung and scrub,then come down and rinse.It's actually quite fast and definetly thorough.I always wondered how you x-jetters get the window shelf clean,because if you ever go up and look you'll see that quite a bit of dirt will lay there and build up in some cases.If I used chemicals strong enough to clean without scrubbing I would probably be doing alot of repainting of aluminum trim.On an average two story house it takes me around 3-4 hours.I job this size will pay me $275.00-$350.00.I work by myself.I feel like I'm doing alright by hand scrubbing at this rate.A typical rancher will pay me $200.00-$250.00 and takes around 2-2.5 hours.And I'll also tell you this,the customer loves to see you working for your money.I actually think that I have set the standard for the house washing business in this area because people call me over the guys who only spray on and spray off.Actually there are'nt to many others because no one wants to do the work properly and they are'nt in business very long.I get alot of work because I hand wash.When I leave a job I know it's clean,...couldn't and wouldn't think of doing it any other way.

[Jeff 232]

OLD SCHOOL I'm 44:lgbugeyes

[Everett Abrams 501]

I would say that I run between 1500-2000psi with a 25 degree tip, generally. If I need more it is there. When I refer to two hours please understand that is an average house, say 50x30 or so, with little challenges. This does not include driving and packing up equipment. To make money on a house and include the driving and pack up time in your price, which the job should pay for, you need to get it done in that time frame and most people do. There is no rocket science to this. Most people price at about $1/linear ft./floor. With that in mind you will get about $300-$350 for the average house I mentioned above. If you add your drive time to and from the site as well as setting up and breaking down equipment, add the two hours or so to clean and you have 3 hours or so into the job. This comes out in the neighborhood of $100/hr, which is about the average for house washing. No real secrets here, the secrets are in how you sell your repeat business and generate more income without having to spend as much effort on subsequent cleanings. Ken, you are more than welcome to come and watch. At this point spring is probably best.

There are many factors being thrown into the conversation and a combination of things are often what is needed to complete the job that will satisfy(or exceed the customer perception) for a fair price to both contractor and homeowner. When you get into some of the detailing that is being discussed, like scrubbing and so forth, then to me that is an upsell and should be sold JUST that way to a homeowner. We do many $400-$600 homes that do not fall into the category we are discussing. My comments are for an average home, average washing, average pricing, average time, average everything. When it is all said and done my goal is to get at least $100/hr for the entire time it takes me to do the job that I submitted to the property owner.

[Everett Abrams 501]

I did forget, there are two people on these jobs. Big information that I left out! Sorry.