Bleach and Sodium hydroxide

[chemist 1 14]

I have spent the better part of the day reading posts about the chemicals used to clean roofs, houses and exterior surfaces. All I can say is that, as someone who knows, I am in shock at the utter lack of reguard for the safety of you, the customer, and the property you are spraying toxic fluids on. Sodium hypochlorite should never be mixed with water and sprayed on a roof or building. It will atomize, drift up to hundreds of yards, and possible poison someone. Bleach of 12% concentration is approaching the toxicity level of mustard gas. Over exposure to sodium hypochlorite can cause liver failure, lung tissue damage and reproductive problems. Let me know how you are feeling in 5 more years! CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY WORKING WITH BLEACH IS A PLEASANT EXPERIENCE? I challenge you to find instructions for roof cleaning on a bottle of bleach or pool shock, which might contain bromine, even worse. Bleach is NOT AN ALGAECIDE. If you don't believe me go to the EPA website and find out for yourself. Bleach is corrosive, toxic, and should not be inhaled...Period. 1 Gallon of bleach at 6% concentration can contaminate 40,000 gallons of ground water. I will not even comment on sodium hydroxide. Make sure your liability insurance is current, because you will be needing it very soon. FACTOID. Ah,.. so the shingle manufactures recommend a mix of bleach, TSP and water to "brighten" shingles. Did it ever occur to you that they are in business to sell and promote shingles? If you think they will send out a lawyer to help defend you in court, guess again. Their out-dated tech bulletins will not cover your rear ends. If you really want to, you can use safe products that work well and limit your liability. Do everybody a favor and look into it. Have a nice day!

[PWkid 79]

A safe product that gives instant results. I'll be the first in line.

[Aplus 525]

OK Chemist...you make some valid points. What would you recommend?

I'd be more than happy to hear an expert's point of view as to how best handle algae/mold covered shingles.

Please realize that some of us are also concerned for our health, and do wear appropriate protective gear.

[squirtgun 122]

So what is the mystery cleaner?Copper sulfate?Sodium percarb?Quats?

[Jeff 232]

I have spent the better part of the day reading posts about the chemicals used to clean roofs, houses and exterior surfaces. All I can say is that, as someone who knows, I am in shock at the utter lack of reguard for the safety of you, the customer, and the property you are spraying toxic fluids on. Sodium hypochlorite should never be mixed with water and sprayed on a roof or building. It will atomize, drift up to hundreds of yards, and possible poison someone. Bleach of 12% concentration is approaching the toxicity level of mustard gas. Over exposure to sodium hypochlorite can cause liver failure, lung tissue damage and reproductive problems. Let me know how you are feeling in 5 more years! CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY WORKING WITH BLEACH IS A PLEASANT EXPERIENCE? I challenge you to find instructions for roof cleaning on a bottle of bleach or pool shock, which might contain bromine, even worse. Bleach is NOT AN ALGAECIDE. If you don't believe me go to the EPA website and find out for yourself. Bleach is corrosive, toxic, and should not be inhaled...Period. 1 Gallon of bleach at 6% concentration can contaminate 40,000 gallons of ground water. I will not even comment on sodium hydroxide. Make sure your liability insurance is current, because you will be needing it very soon. FACTOID. Ah,.. so the shingle manufactures recommend a mix of bleach, TSP and water to "brighten" shingles. Did it ever occur to you that they are in business to sell and promote shingles? If you think they will send out a lawyer to help defend you in court, guess again. Their out-dated tech bulletins will not cover your rear ends. If you really want to, you can use safe products that work well and limit your liability. Do everybody a favor and look into it. Have a nice day!

Is working in a foundry, spray painting, trash dumps, waste water plants, welding, sick buildings, computer tech EVEN WHAT YOU DO MR. CHEMIST is anything really safe to do? What about it.

Bleach is corrosive so isnt Coca Cola, Whats your point? Mustard Gas get real brain surgeon.

your a chemist? What do you do with your research chems, how do you dispose of them. There is nothing 100% perfect or right.

Chemist, I guess you dont drive a car OH GOD you have utter disregard for EVERTHING, or sit on a chair, or eat food that is manufactered

Nothing is 100% safe go live in a hole and live off the land its the 21st century Sir, things should be better but they arent and you have to work with what you got. DON'T YOU????:alien:

Dont tell this entire board we have total disregard for everything, who the hell are you. We as people world wide are & will kill this planet possibly someday. But its not us spraying a roof or a house. Its the large Corps. that get away with murder every day and our goverment is making it easier everyday for them to do so. Its far from a perfect world, but you've never used cleaning chems or a toxic product

Your post is insulting, your insulting and your a PITA go somewhere else if you want to insult me or anyone else. Matter of fact why dont you go smoke a cigarette, drink some Coca cola, wash your car, drive your car to the gas station, filler up, go get a hot dog and stick it, I mean eat it, Sounds like a safe thing for you to do.

Your a trip Mr. Chemist, dont forget when you go to your chemistry job testing products, don't forget to properly dispose of the dogs & monkeys you you kill for researching cosmetics. YOU KILLER total disregard and was it you who stole my dog when I was 12

Maybe I shouldnt be so rude?

JL

[squirtgun 122]

Wow Jeff....You typed everything I deleted....lol.

Somehow i can see Chemist 1's post turning into an infommercial for some new roof cleaning product.I have always loved those who try to sell people things by instilling fear in them.

If in fact there is some new, safer,cost effective way to clean roofs I hope he answers back,rather than coming here judging people he doesn't know.

[Dave O 15]

Scott

I think you may be right. I was on another board and happened to notice the same screen name. I tracked it to www.roofreviver.com where they are trying to push it other places, but I could be wrong on this person, just the same screen names makes me think yes.

[mikew 14]

Wow Jeff....You typed everything I deleted....lol.

Somehow i can see Chemist 1's post turning into an infommercial for some new roof cleaning product.I have always loved those who try to sell people things by instilling fear in them.

If in fact there is some new, safer,cost effective way to clean roofs I hope he answers back,rather than coming here judging people he doesn't know.

I think you are right on this one. Someone comes to this board, makes one post slamming cleaning methods, and then... oh, by the way, check into other safer products?!?! What a joke.

Mike

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Chemist,

Welcome to the BBS. Please take time to read the rules of conduct here. We welcome helpful and constructive information, but we certainly do not allow bashing or flaming. If you would like to elaborate constructively on some of your points and provide us with data, help, suggestions, advice, we would all welcome it.

Beth

[JFife 14]

....went to Dave O's site, seems like a decent product!!

Which begs the question, why would a company with decent products hire a moron like this to sell for them??? I doubt they know it, so tomorrow I am going to send an email or call the Parent company and either copy this to them or link them to it. One as stupid as this deserves to be fired, so I am going to try and make that happen. And if this IS the owner of the biz, the wheels will fall off soon enough.

Maybe he'll start a roof cleaning biz!!!

[Jeff 232]

Chemist,

Welcome to the BBS. Please take time to read the rules of conduct here. We welcome helpful and constructive information, but we certainly do not allow bashing or flaming. If you would like to elaborate constructively on some of your points and provide us with data, help, suggestions, advice, we would all welcome it.

Beth

I'm sorry Chemist thats what I meant to say, Welcome .....LOL

If he's trying to sell something ..................:lgbonk: What a great sales pitch, Putz

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

While the initial post may be a bit foreboding, it is coming from an outsiders perspective. Assumptions are made in general about our trades based upon limited information. While those who have posted in response may feel strongly and even insulted, I must suggest that we step back for a minute and consider the point this person is making as a potential customer as well.

There is valid points made and they are coming from a position of concern based upon this persons background, experience and walk of life. Let's not discount a post so quickly with snap judgments because of suspicion or out of spite because of what this person is presenting. It does not speak well of us to be closed minded and not take into consideration what is presented here and lash out with negativities or harsh comments. I am not referring to all but to a few and that I believe is all I need to say.

Lets maintain the decorum and keep it courteous and respectful. This person may have spent an amount of time reading but that is book learning and not hands on.

Chemist1, while your intentions appear to be of health concern, your post lacks consideration of the fact that you may not completely understand that between contractors, some things are understood as Standard Operational Procedure and do not always include the finer details of using PPE and limiting exposure to avoid mass exposure. You would do better to verify the facts first before making assumptions as some here have made of you. This is a community and in as much, we respect each other first and foremost. Its the best way to begin in addressing others.

Thank you.

Rod!~

[racechaser 64]

http://www.roofreviver.com/page/16i0e/Roof_Reviver_TM__Information.html

Read the instructions

Scott

[racechaser 64]

"Rinse any over-spray off of plants etc."

"Use 400-600 psi water pressure to thoroughly rinse shingles (Note: standard garden hose pressure is 50-75 psi). This will give you the instant results you are looking for!"

Mr chemist....If this is not a sodium hydroxide product I'd be surprised. If you're not associated with this product as assumed then my apologies.

If you have a better method let me know.By better I mean no harm to plants or me and can rinse off with garden hose. Other than that I will continue to wear PPE which includes a Scott full face respirator or 3M half face when the situation arises.

Rest assured when applied with a low pressure pump there is little chance it is traveling 50 feet much less "hundreds of yards". That would be 300 feet or more correct? I know you may be good at math in the lab but in real life that's a football field. No way dude!!

If you're so good at this, invent something that is safe for me, plants, and can be washed off with garden hose giving instant results. Oh yeah and affordable enough for me to still be able to make a living for my family without having to charge $700.00 per roof.

I will be patiently waiting:lgwave:

Scott

[RyanH 14]

chemist1,

I think you have underestimated the professionalism of most people on this board. You may be spot-on for many who "do" pressure washing, but as for those who are in the industry as a profession, they know their stuff. They know the precautions to use when handling these chemicals. They know the dangers of mixing various types of materials. The site admins have posted several links to sites containing hazard information.

Don't think for a moment that users here are ignorant in their practices. Perhaps you should spend more than the better part of a day reading. You will see that many have done their own tests (experiments, if you will) on the effects of NaHOCl on shingles. They have placed shingles in buckets of the stuff for days at a time. They have sprayed them down and allowed them to dry in the sun. Surely you know that this is the best way to produce radicals from the Cl and Br (as you say exists in these products) and to display the fastest possible degradation of the materials. Guess what? Tests show no adverse effects when using these chemicals responsibly as they do. Nobody sprays 12% NaHOCl into the air. If you've ever ordered chemicals (those ugly brown bottles from Fisher Scientific, for example), you've most likely elected to order the highest molar concentration possible and dilute as required. Otherwise, you'd be paying huge money for shipping water. It's more convenient to carry a container of 12% and use the proper proportioners on their injection equipment to adjust the concentration, usually down to the 1 - 2% range upon application. These guys know about this stuff. Their business is to make money and providing a service is the means by which they do this; it is in their best interest to know the facts and to act accordingly. You'll find (as you continue reading) that there aren't many "weekend warriors" here. And by spouting a few assumptions---and offering opinions without backup---you'll get what the modern urbanites refer to as "schooled."

Welcome.

[Atlantic Power Washing 14]

I bet it's a percarb..that's what it sounds like to me.

[Dave O 15]

Now remember that the site I gave may not be his so don't attack the site, because someone else does it different. It was just that was the site that the said user name was trying to push on another BB. So I may be wrong, and don't want a site that has nothing to do with this chemist1 person getting harrased.

[jgoral76 14]

I Agree With Most If Not All That This Is Some Sales Guy Trying To Fear Us On His / Their Product. Maybe A More Kinder Aproach Would Have Been Merrited On His Part As To Say Free Samples. We Are Pros And We All Take Great Strides To Insure The Customers Safety And Also Our Own Not To Mention The Property We Are At. I Think We All Have Seen Or Heard What The End Result Is For Not Doing So. Again We Are The Pros Who Do The Job We Know Our Jobs, So Chemist Man Try Again.... Also If Some Co. Or Person Has A Product That May Be Better Try Us.

[bforbis 14]

Chemist1,

I see that you have not bothered to reply any further or actually provide documentation. Chemist? Anyone can declare that title and post a hit and run as you have done.

The MSDS for the chemical is clear what the limits of exposure are for inhalation, digestion, contact etc and they are far greater than the dilutions being used to clean roofs, or kill algae/mold/mildew.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the use of Sodium Hypochlorite, but I and others do so and we do so with precautions. Even the local water treatment plant uses it daily.

As a matter of FACT, there has been many years of research from major universities that have proven Sodium Hypochlorite to be an effective disinfectant and algaecide. So is Quantinary amonium, which is used commercially, hospitals, labs, food inductry etc. (as well as sodium hypochlorite).

I have worked in the industry as a chemist, chemical engineer and in microbiology. If you have a sales pitch to make, then stand up make your point/pitch like you have a PAIR. Otherwise, don't bother ..!.,

[Grihm 14]

Well, from an initial weekend warrior, I have been schooled just from reading the initial posting and the numerous replies to it. I've done a lot of reading as well and have come to realize that there is the theorical and the actual. I will always read the theorical for guidance, but immediately seek out the experienced for safety and practicalilty. I don't want to leave corporate just to kill myself trying to make a living. So I value all discourse regarding this profession.

I just purchased 12.5% bleach after reading numerous materials discouraging it's usage. Yet when I would go to the chemical distributor they had plenty of it and said that the pressurers swear by it. I have have protective gear, rainsuit, goggles, rubber clubs and face mask. I water down the lawn before and after usage. I'm now testing oxalic acid. I'm told if you learn the chemicals you will save money, time and wear and tear on equipment.

[Grihm 14]

That's rubber gloves and pressure washers. Sorry for the misspellings.

[PLD 14]

Bleach is NOT AN ALGAECIDE.

Very odd, every day thousands of pool stores nationwide sell tens of thousands of gallons of CaHClO and NaCLO as an algecide.

1 Gallon of bleach at 6% concentration can contaminate 40,000 gallons of ground water.

Acually, I quote "you can use chlorine bleach to treat a swimming pool or to treat drinking water. A gallon of bleach provides 1 part per million (PPM) of chlorine to 60,000 gallons (about 250,000 liters) of water. Typically, a pool is treated at a rate of 3 PPM, and drinking water is treated at anywhere from 0.2 PPM to 3 PPM depending on the level of contamination and the contact time.

[snip]

Chlorine is used in pools and drinking water because it is a great disinfectant. It is able to kill bacteria and algae, among other things.

[snip]

If you are worried about the chlorine in your water, all you have to do is let the water stand for a day or two in a loosely covered container in your refrigerator and the chlorine is eliminated."

So, 1 gallon 6% NaHClO and 40k gallons of ground water = water less chlorinated than an pool and well within the acceptable limits for municipal drinking water. And that assumes that 90% of the bleach is not decomposed as it oxidizes ANY organic matter it encounters (like dirt or algae).

Chemist1, you are either ignorant or you are a troll. In the case of the former, I would suggest that you could find a better way to educate yourself than to run into a room and insult a few hundred people with a few THOUSAND years combined experience. If the latter (which I strongly suspect) I can only ask that my fellow posters not feed the troll.

[john nugent 14]

there are no safe chemicals! we just have to take care with the ones we use.