Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 We thought we would share a recent job with everyone. It is a deck that had multiple layers (years worth) of solid stain unevenly applied by the homeowner. What you will see is HD-80 at 6 oz to the gallon. Not even full strength. Enjoy. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Jarrod 22 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Nice job! That HD80 works good! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 I am putting 6oz of lye per gallon along with 1/4 cup of sodium-metasilicate TSP - and it ain't getting the stuff off that well. It's my deck I am trying to learn how to strip on - it's got multiple years of buildup of thompsons and cuprinol - before I had a friend clean it up and put a coat of California's stain on it - then I cleaned it 2 years ago and put a coat of Muralo's Lumberjacket - which is Tung oil based. And I have cleaned the decks twice with 4 oz of lye plus 1/4 cup of sodium Metasilicate type TSP per gallon - and then a 3rd time with 6oz of lye plus S.M. TSP - and still needs more stripping! Note I wetted the decks and then scrubbed this stuff on with a deck scrubber - and continuously went over and kept scrubbing and adding more stuff and probably has at least 20 minute dwell time. Is a surfactant is what is making the difference? If I go online and order a non-ionic surfactant and add to the mix - will it make a drastic improvement? And isn't the TSP acting sort of a surfactant anyways? -plainpainter P.S. I am using Red-Devil 100% lye, and Lunmarks' TSP that has sodium-metasilicate in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Cuprinol is an easy strip. The problem as I see it (and I mean no offense) is that you are trying to make your own product. Manufacturers have experienced chemists that create formulas designed to work in wood care applications. You would be far better off purchasing one and learning to use it, rather than trying to make your own. Work smarter, not harder. Just my .02.... Beth p.s. with the right product, you can take your thumb, place it over a garden hose and rinse and the stain will come off. Removal can be very gentle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 A garden hose? I have a craftsman 2.5/gpm 2900 PSI pressure washer - and the stuff doesn't want to come off even when the nozzle is several inches away. I hate giving these companies my money - When I clean house, I have always used 2 gallons of water, 1/2 cup tsp, 1/2 gallon of bleech - sprayed on with a garden sprayer, then scrubbed and then power washed. And that has always done a great job - and far cheaper than purchasing some companies' $20/gallon solution. So why not figure a good formula for stripping - the active ingredient is lye, right? I found a link talking about adding Tergitol to lye to make a great stripper. Why no just experiment and make our stripper for a fraction of the cost? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Daniel, Yes, it is possible. As a rule of thumb, you really do not need over 1,000 PSI to restore wood, and any higher and you cause damage by tearing the stain off the wood, along with the wood you are cleaning. Let the chems work for you. Cost us about $1.85 per gallon to do that deck. We had to reapply several times, there were numerous coats and several products. Took about 15 gallons. It's worth it. We have been using it for years, and we get consistent results like this all the time. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 plainpainter 217 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Okay, here is a slightly different question - how do you charge for stripping? Do you give 'em a set price, whether it takes one application or three? Or do you tell 'em in advance it costs so and so per application? I really don't like the attitude customers take - 'you're a professional you should have known how much work it would have been' If I was so smart about the future - I'd be working on wall street right now. -plainpainter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 If you are not a chemist and studied the different types of coatings you will be needing to remove, you could spend a great deal of time trying to come up with a mix that will do what others on the market already do quite well. Why reinvent the wheel just to save a buck is my approach. I wouldn't want to stake my company in a liability issue for doing something like that. Do you know how to make up an msds sheet to cover your behind if you get inspected by a DOT inspector? Just some questions for you to consider. I let others make the product and comply with all the necessary regulations. Yeah it takes the price up but it gives me peice of mind knowing the ball doesn't roll downhill to me for making up something that I don't completely understand. I am cautious whereas my business and employees are concerned. You know what they say about a little knowledge-vs-more knowledge? Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Experience will help you to understand better what you will need to do on each job. Different products strip in different ways and time is always a factor. Knowing your products capabilities allows you to know what you will be able to obtain results wise. We charge a set price that is higher than a regular wash price in order to account for the extra time, applications and possible defurring necessary to get the deck prepped for application of a sealer. First thing you need to know going onto any structure you are being asked to strip is: Whats on it? How long has it been on there? Was it applied by a contractor or the homeowner? These will give you insight as to what you will need to do to get the product off. Many times I can walk onto a deck and spout off a couple of product names and the customer will confirm it if they know themselves. Most times it is a consumer grade product and these have telltale signs in themselves. After walking onto literally thousands of decks in our area taking into account the different products available locally, it becomes really easy to discern the coating on the structure. Most will have Behr, Olympic, CWF/UV, Cabot 'Clear Solutions', Sikkens Cetol Dek or SRD, TWP 101 or 501, ABR X-100, Wolman F&P or Extreme and Cuprinol. A very few will have Penofin, Menwood or Ready Seal. Mildew presence and proliferation will be indicative of Behr, Penofin, Menwood, ABR X-100 and Cuprinol. Flaking will be a sign of improperly maintained Sikkens Cetol Dek, Wolman Extreme or CWF/UV. Horizontal fading will be signs of Cabot, Cuprinol, Olympic, Sikkens SRD, TWP 101 or 501, ABR X-100, Wolman F&P and Ready Seal. 90% of the time I am right on without the customer telling me what is currently installed. By paying attention to these products and the way the behave over time, you can also tell how old the product is give or take 6 months to a year. Coming out of the gate, you have your work cut out for you and taking short cuts will only give you more frustration than being self-employed is worth. I hope this helps. Rod!~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 RPetry 564 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Plainpainter, I fully agree with Rod and Beth on this. There are some teriffic sodium hydroxide stripper products available, namely HD-80 from Extreme Solutions and F-18 Max from Pressure Tek. What you may pay in cost and shipping can be saved in labor of making your own mixes and possible liability issues. You may want to consider a separate line item materials costs on your estimates and bills. how do you charge for stripping? A tough question, that can only be solved from experience. Here is a tip you may want to use. When I go out on estimates, I carry a kit of 7 different spray bottles of strippers. Four of the bottles are commercial sodium hydroxide stripper, mixed at various concentrations. The others are specialized strippers for latex and acrylics. Before taking measurements, try a "best guess" sample on an inconspicuous area of finish. In 15 or 20 minutes, see if the finish has "melted" or degraded. This will give you an educated guess on the difficulty and possible time it may take to strip the job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 seymore 90 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 I'm with Rick on figuring out the cleaning time and cost to strip and clean the job.You could spend 4 hrs on and easy semi trans stain removal or 12 hrs on a solid stain removal.So that the difference in charging $400 or $800-$1000. Beth,Rod ...sweet stripping job there! :cool: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Thanks guys :) I'll post pics when it is stained.... Going with Cabot's for this job. Cabot's Clear Solutions in the Weathered Gray color. She loves gray. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Deck Guy 14 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Beth, I can see knots and grain in the first two pics...that would tell me that is a semi-transparent stain. A curious color selection to be sure, but semi-transparent nonetheless. When I've seen failures of solid stain, it's been more like paint failing...cracking and chipping, not thinning, especially on the apron which would get very little wear and tear. The solid staind I use go on pretty much looking like paint...totally opaque. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 9, 2006 Ummmmm...sorry...nope. By the time I took the pic, the HD-80 had already begun begun to melt the stain off nicely and had dwelled for at least 15 minutes. This deck did in fact have a solid on it, several layers, not all the same thing. Also on the floor there were lap marks, the front of the seats had run/drip marks, etc. Owner had a carpet covering part of the deck as well, so the dog's claws would not dig up the wood. So there was heavy mildew in spots. Wish I had thought to snap a pic of it before applying HD-80, but I didn't get one. I was physically there, and I do know the difference between solid and semi-solid (or semi-transparent for that matter) when I see it. ;) Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 James 625 Report post Posted April 10, 2006 From photo and the way it came off doesn't seem like a solid stain. I agree with Deck Guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 10, 2006 Well, it was... as I said, the product had been on there a long time, and the stain was melting off. It was a solid. Those of you who have worked extensively with HD-80 or other high end strippers, may have noticed that as they break the bond and melt off the wood, you get a color change of the product you are removing, as well as a brownish liquid that comes out - those are your extractives coming out of the wood. Beth p.s. the owner already told us what it was...it was Behr's solid decking stain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Deck Guy 14 Report post Posted April 10, 2006 Of course! I didn't consider that you had already applied stripper when taking the photos. Looks similar to the RM I use after letting it dwell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 big mike 14 Report post Posted April 11, 2006 Beth, How bad did that deck fur up? I almost always get furring with HD80, pretty hot stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0 Beth n Rod 1,279 Report post Posted April 11, 2006 Not bad at all. It was minor. Sometimes if you let it dwell too long or have it too strong for a specific job it can happen though. Beth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
We thought we would share a recent job with everyone. It is a deck that had multiple layers (years worth) of solid stain unevenly applied by the homeowner.
What you will see is HD-80 at 6 oz to the gallon. Not even full strength.
Enjoy.
Beth
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