First Wood Job - It's HUGE

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

I've been reading alot about wood. Enough to confuse the crap out of myself. I'm pricing a deck job on the lake that consists of a three level deck. Level one is an open boat house, level two a sun deck, and level three attached to the house. Over 6600 sq ft. mostly horizontal. 280 lin. ft. of hand rails not counting the 3 flights of steps totaling 40 steps with rails-- all rails w/ 2x2 spindles about 6 inches apart. And a couple of built in benches about 20 lin ft total. Roughly a $40k deck, a year old. Exposed portions are just beginning to turn gray. It has never been treated before. Customer wants it basically clear. Will need some cleaning to remove the gray.

I've read where some folks are getting $1.50 to $2.00 a square ft. for cleaning and sealing!! I can't tell these folks it will cost $12,000 to clean and seal their monster deck! I don't have easy access to cleaning products except for consumer stuff which is expensive for a job this size. I'm figuring 25-30 gal sealer depending on what I use. Any advice on cleaning products and procedures and sealing products would be greatly appreciated.

I'm ready to venture into deck finishing, but this is a little intimidating. I hope this doesn't turn into another argument about whose system works best, I just need some tried and true products. Also I think this will be a flagship job that will play a great role in the future of my business (All jobs do, but this one to a greater extent).

I just realized this is my first post. Maybe I should have introduced my self in some way. I apologize. I've been lurking and reading for several months and received alot of helpful info here. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to contribute alot yet. Sorry.

[Celeste 341]

That's somewhat of a large project for your first one....might want to bring in some experienced help! Folks with decks that big have paid WAAAAYYY more than $12K to have it built, most of our customers don't even blink at $2.00 a sq ft.

Celeste

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

I don't even know anyone in my area that has experience in the biz. I'm it. I've been doing houses and concrete about a year or so. My trustworthy sources are here on this board. The question is not whether I can, or should do it. But rather advice on how to a have a troublefree experience from people who know a little more than me.

Also, the demographic difference between NC and Central Alabama couldn't be more different. I would give anything to get $2.00 per sq ft to do 6000 sq ft!

[James 624]

6 to 8 k depending type of sealer and difficulty. Enough water ( well) ? What type of wood?

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

Pressure treated pine. Oil base clear type sealant. Type -waiting for suggestions. Water is readily available.

[Proclean 14]

I’ll jump in here.

This has too many angles for a newbie.

I would be happy to help you out if you are not too far from Atlanta. You are correct, they are not going to spend 12K on their deck, IMHO.

Do not put down clear.

I’m not trying to take business away from you, but maybe we could hook up. Believe me, I don’t need the business, but love to share what others have taught me to pass on to you.

I’m being 100% honest – Bring someone inn to this project who knows what they are doing. You will make money and the customer will be happy. Your business will grow.

Private email me with phone number and we can talk or go your own route, but I can offer all the help you need, even if you want to come to Atlanta and see how we stain decks. My guys could knock that out that deck in 2 days with brushing everything.

Paul Dinos

Pro Clean Specialists, Inc

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

Proclean, you have a message.

Thanks.

[RPetry 564]

Jeremy,

That is a monster job for anyone, let alone someone who is just starting on wood. You may want to seriously consider taking Paul up on his offer of guidance and help.

But 6600 sq. ft. of staining using brushes in two days? 3 flights of steps with handrails, 280 linear ft. of ballustrade? What do you do, hire every slow painter in the county? Even Texas Shane, the record holder for volume staining, could not get near that kind of production.

[Proclean 14]

Alright Rick, you put forth the challange.

Here are 2 deck we did this year. All brushed, less than 1 day each. Don't touch my guys, they are the best. Shane had better look out, I'm coming. I've got this picture thing down.

Paul Dinos,

Pro Clean Specialists, Inc

[tropical wave 22]

if the customer just wants it "clear" I assume they just want it to look like new wood again. do they know it will just turn gray again? there is no UV protection in clear sealer? Im sure you told them that, so I just typed that for nothing :) ........they can hire you to just clean the gray every year or 2 and they can keep the natural look, so lets look at this, its year old PTP, just a clean job and its BIG......if you take your time, be careful and pick up the phone if you have questions, dont let the size intimidate you, its just 4 smaller sized decks put together on one property.....no biggie. work in sections and dont beat on the wood.

I say this because it really seems like you want to do this and not be talked out of the job.

[RPetry 564]

Paul,

How many men do you use to brush out that much wood in less than a day? I'm not questioning your veracity, but would like to see that kind of production anywhere.

Don't go into Houston, Texas. They do not allow outsiders there. Tough town, ask Shane.

[Proclean 14]

Rick,

2.

I don't know what I would do without them. Yes I do, Save a lot of money - but worth every penny

Paul

[RPetry 564]

Paul,

Holy smokes, can you clone them? Do they have brothers, even sisters? Send a few up to New Jersey! That is one heck of a lot of staining for two guys in a day. You have a couple of keepers.

[seymore 90]

Alright Rick, you put forth the challange.

Here are 2 deck we did this year. All brushed, less than 1 day each.

That's a whole lotta brushing and rolling,padding however ya'll do it.I'll take my shurflo and paint pad and my 12'x200' roll of plastic along with water. :cool:

6000 sqft deck i've stained in 12 hrs but it didn't have all that friggin railing!

[JFife 14]

Dang!!! I wonder if your painters would be willing to sire some children for me. What kind of stain is being used?? That would make a big difference, how thin it is/how much it penetrates.

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

Tropical wave, thanks for the encouragement (finally). I know no-one here knows me but I'm not an idiot guys, I just wanted a little advice from experienced people for a new venture. I'm a pretty capable guy whose done a good bit of research and have a couple of good helpers to boot. I intend to spray and backbrush the horizontals and labor through the railings.

I'm not a seasoned wood pro, but at least give me a chance!

[Proclean 14]

As I hate typing, here goes:

Jeremy. call me - I got your PM. We could knock this deck out.

All you guys are right. I could not run my business without my guys. They are 100% of my business. It took me 2 years to find the 1st right crew.

Shane is right on. The debate of spraying vs brushing is a real debate. Prep to spray vs brush. The debate will go on & on. I believe that brush saves times. Another debate.

Paul Dinos

[PressurePros 248]

I don't care what part of the country you are in, a deck of that magnitude would cost at LEAST $85,000. Builders around here would charge well over a hundred and twenty thousand.

25-30 gallons of sealer? Are you kidding me? Try closer to one hundred gallons depending on what you use. You are looking at probably $2200 in materials alone. I strongly suggest using Wood Tux Wet unless you are in a very dry area. This is one helluva project.

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

I'm just telling you all what the owner said the deck cost to build- $40,000, which I thought was unheard of. Pennsylvania is a far cry from Clanton, AL. You've probably never lived around here because it is absolutely ruidiculous to think that someone would pay $120k for a deck in my area or within a 100 miles for that matter. The house and property probably didn't cost that much. A GOOD income around here is $50-60k a year. I'm sure these owners are above that, but I'm just giving you a clue about the demographic. I'm not trying to talk myself out of making more money, but it is absolutely crazy to think that I can get $8-10k for this job. Just because there are a few people around here that have that much money to spend, doesn't mean they will spend it. They are accustomed to paying for services at a price well below their means. The fact that they are well above average financially is just fortunate for them.

100 bucks says they would go into cardiac arrest if I told them I'd do it for $6000.

[JFife 14]

....Then you should prepare for mouth-to-mouth, or pass on the job. Three stories high?? That is tough. Not only dangerous, but difficult and slow. Jeremy--don't buy the whole "poor Southern" thing. I used to live in TN, and I am quite sure the area you are in is not a lower income demographic than where I currently live. Fact is, doesn't matter if you are in PA, AL, or NYC, there is a certain "value based on expenses" a job has. If you are unable to get it, you should find other work, simple as that. That is called "perceived value", and if people in AL don't want to spend 6K on their deck, it doesn't mean you should try and take care of them for 3K, and figure out how to make that work because of your demographic. If you are rural, you probably won't get many people to pay for a cosmetic service like deck refinishing. You'll probably get more hits on cheaper, more visible services like vinyl washing.

Another thing--in the South, there is a far greater margin between the rich and the poor, as opposed to Unionized areas like the Upper Midwest, some parts of the East, etc. Yeah, the poor are really poor, but a lot of the rich are really rich, and appearance will mean a lot to those people. I'd tailor your marketing to seduce that type, and it shouldn't be that hard to do.

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

Fife, You got it pegged. The rich are used to getting things done for the same price as the poor because prices are based on what the majority can afford in a given area. Not to say that the majority is poor, but the majority is certainly not rich. There are many in my area who are indeed very rich, but you will play heck getting them to spend any of it. Especially on their deck. Maybe that's why they stay rich.

By the way it's not three stories high stacked. It is three levels connected by stairs from water level up to the house. Three seperate landing areas. All under the sun.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Paul,

Ohhhhhhh Ahhhhhhhh Nice!!!!

Jeremy,

Hook up with Paul.

Beth :cup: :sunshine: :groovy3:

[PressurePros 248]

Jeremy, using your zip codes (35045,35046) in my remodeling cost estimator to build a 6600 s.f deck with PTP, ground level, plain posts, no fancy caps, 2"x2" railings with spindles on 5", the price comes back as $96,563. I was giving the benefit of the doubt by saying $80k considering there may be guys that are uninsured, work for beer money etc in your rural area. So with all due respect either you measured incorrectly, the customer is full of sh*t, or perhaps he built it himself which seems unlikely if he wants to hire someone to clean and seal it.

In my area $19 per s/f is commonplace for deck construction and not inflated. There are area that guys are getting $28 per s/f (Manhattan, NY etc) and that's using the cheapest wood possible.

I think you may be getting a bit defensive. No one is trying to discourage you but we have all been faced with the same dilemma you find yourself in. I never sugested anything about how much you should charge. I gave you realistic information based upon the information you gave. You are looking in the ballpark of cleaning and sealing over 10,000 square feet of wood.

One thing I learned about is selling a job based upon your own wallet and expectations. It can put you out of business. My uncle paid $50,000 for a pair of stereo speakers. I could never fathom that and at one point in my life I would never have been able to sell something like that.

Things cost what they cost. Jon's post was right on point. If you walk into a car dealership and expect to pay $20,000 for a new Cadillac, you had better set lower expectations. You are making too many assumptions based on what maybe you can afford or would spend. Sit down with the homeowner, discuss what type of job he is looking for. Explain (in a nice way) that his big bloated deck is going to have a bloated maintenance budget.

It's not up to you as a contractor to compensate him for former excess by taking food from your table. If a person buys a 12 cylinder Jaguar he better be prepared for the very expensive and frequent maintenance schedule. Do you think the Jaguar mechanic is going to be sympathetic to the owner and lower his price on repairs? Not likely.

Do this deck. Learn from it. If your hourly rate is peanuts, oh well. Think about this in your final assessment. If you end up turning down 5 other smaller jobs while you are doing this bear, you are going to kick yourself. Good luck to you.

[HYDROACTIVE 14]

After all the talk, I'm going back to take another look. I know it's big. I also know that 6000 sq ft is big. I also had help calling out measurements for me while I wrote. I'm gonna take some pics this time. I don't want to seem defensive, so I apologize. I'm gonna re-measure right by myself and see what happens.

Also, everyone here is right. I have never sold a job of this magnitude (wood or otherwise). It would take me and my guys awhile to do it. But if it took two weeks, I would still profit more from this job. Even if I did 10 house jobs at $350 a pop (which I won't), this job still pays better. And I am confident that we can do good job. I should also mention that I'm only a part timer. I have a full-time job besides my side business. I don't have a steady schedule of jobs to fall back on. It would be nice to get a good paying job.

Paul has made a generous offer that I am considering.

I will report back this afternoon with the findings from my second trip.

Also, I want to thank everyone for their input and advice. Sometimes it's just hard to weed through the posts from folks that say things that make it obvious that they think you are less intelligent than you are. Then again maybe it's just me. I am indeed gratelful. Thanks.

[Able Hands 14]

Jeremy,

I too am new to wood (and PWing as a whole). Someone posted a little while back about a spreadsheet that was created/posted by Reed. This thing is all encompassing. It gives the ability to change anything in the pricing, and will help your accuracy in figuring time. I've tried to just "eye" a job, and then went back to re-measure with the spreadsheet, and I was way off.

Also, I have to agree with the comments about being a huge job for a first time. Not that you can't do it, or shouldn't do it. Just be prepared for it to take much, much longer than you think it will. Most first jobs seem to work that way. My first house wash was 8 hours... Now I routinely do them in 1.5-2. For me experience is the best way to learn, and boy howdy are you going to learn on this one.

Matt

This post contains the estimating spread sheet from Reed.

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2951&highlight=calculations