Feels like a new machine

[plainpainter 217]

I just got my first batch of goodies from pressuretek which included one of those goodyear 50' long neptune hoses. Holy moly - that hose that came with my machine, which was nothing short of glorified sipping straw, was strangling the pressure like crazy! When I put this hose on - the gun nearly smacked me on the head from the recoil. I know you guys think that a 2900psi @2.3/min is a small machine. But god almighty this is a tough beast to handle now - it seems like output has tripled! My 40 degree tip that came stock is #3.5, and is definitely no longer a low pressure tip! I ordered #4.5 and a #7.0 to lower pressure. My zero degree tip that came stock, now shoots well over 30 feet - it's hilarious. My original soaping tip - that previously was good enough to wet down cars with, will easily fan the side of house up 20'. I can't wait to see how my zero degree tip #30 will shoot chems.

-Dan

[Grant 500]

Just remember, its not how big the hoses is, but how you use it.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I just got my first batch of goodies from pressuretek which included one of those goodyear 50' long neptune hoses. Holy moly - that hose that came with my machine, which was nothing short of glorified sipping straw, was strangling the pressure like crazy! When I put this hose on - the gun nearly smacked me on the head from the recoil. I know you guys think that a 2900psi @2.3/min is a small machine. But god almighty this is a tough beast to handle now - it seems like output has tripled! My 40 degree tip that came stock is #3.5, and is definitely no longer a low pressure tip! I ordered #4.5 and a #7.0 to lower pressure. My zero degree tip that came stock, now shoots well over 30 feet - it's hilarious. My original soaping tip - that previously was good enough to wet down cars with, will easily fan the side of house up 20'. I can't wait to see how my zero degree tip #30 will shoot chems.

-Dan

The hose shouldn't have anything to do with how much water is put out, unless there is a severe restriction somewhere, maybe causing it to partially bypass? As long as the motor/pump are working properly, and unless it is bypassing, you're getting 2.3gpm regardless of the hose. Strange that you'd notice such a difference!

No wonder you were confused a while back when we were talking about deck cleaning with low pressure!

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Machines like that often come with 1/4" hose, so if he bumped up to 3/8", then the difference would be noticeable. When I bumped my hose up to 1/2" for 8 gpm, it was a nearly 500 psi difference.

[plainpainter 217]

Mine did come with 1/4" and I did bump to 3/8".

-Dan

[Mike Williamson 198]

Machines like that often come with 1/4" hose, so if he bumped up to 3/8", then the difference would be noticeable. When I bumped my hose up to 1/2" for 8 gpm, it was a nearly 500 psi difference.

Maybe Phillip can jump in here and explain this. I just don't get how the pressure will be any different with a 3/8 over a 1/4" hose.. If anything, the smaller hose would restrict the water flow more, as does a smaller tip (most of which are much smaller than 1/4") and raise the pressure, not lower it. Unless the machine is going partially into bypass....That's the only way this would make sense, but why a 1/4" hose would cause that but not a 3.5 size tip makes no sense to me!

Not arguing anyone's experiences, just trying to understand the why!

[plainpainter 217]

Just think of the line like an electrical circuit. The pump is like the battery - the water is like the current of electricity - and the hose is like resistor. If you remove the resistance from the circuit - you will get an infinite amperage.

Put the resistor back in, and you will get {i^2 * R} losses, i.e. power losses.

Or in the case of a pressure washer - pressure losses. Pumps are designed to pump a certain amount of G.P.M's - but if the hose is a restrictor, it may not be able achieve that flow rate. Put on a bigger engine - and it may again achieve that flow - or just remove unnecessary resistances like too small of a diameter hose.

-Dan

[Mike Williamson 198]

Just think of the line like an electrical circuit. The pump is like the battery - the water is like the current of electricity - and the hose is like resistor. If you remove the resistance from the circuit - you will get an infinite amperage.

Put the resistor back in, and you will get {i^2 * R} losses, i.e. power losses.

Or in the case of a pressure washer - pressure losses. Pumps are designed to pump a certain amount of G.P.M's - but if the hose is a restrictor, it may not be able achieve that flow rate. Put on a bigger engine - and it may again achieve that flow - or just remove unnecessary resistances like too small of a diameter hose.

-Dan

I understand all that. The point is, the tip you have been using is much smaller than the hose you were using...So the "resistance" of the hose is irrelevant, at least as I understand it.

The only thing that makes any sense to me as a possibility is that in a 1/4" hose, there is a much greater percentage of the water creating friction against the walls of the hose, so you would have a more significant pressure loss than you would with a 3/8" hose (which is around 100psi per 100' of hose)

[plainpainter 217]

I think your mistake is that you are trying to be qualitative vs. quantitative. I.e trying to reason by the small nozzle size that the line isn't adding to resistance. The fact is - the line is a resistance - it is a source of pressure drop. Look at it this way - the line is 1/4" in diameter. In 25' length of hose - that is a volume of 14.76 cubic inches. The volume occupied by a cup of water is 13.5 cubic inches. So my hose had a tad more of cup of water in it.

At 2.7 gallons/min flow rate - my pressure washer would push the entire contents of the line through that tiny little nozzle approximately every 1.4 seconds - assuming it could overcome the resistance of the line. In contrast with the larger 3/8" line - it contains 33.14 cubic inches of volume!!!!!!!!! Or 2.45 cups - which means assuming the pressure washer is able to over come the restrictions of the hose - it takes about 3.44 seconds to empty the contents of the line vs. 1.4 seconds. So the pump needs an extra 2 seconds to empty the contents of the larger line - this means the speed of the flow of water through the hose is drasically reduced! Remember pressure losses go up with the square of the speed - in this case the speed of the water in the smaller line is roughly 2.5 times faster - so the frictional losses would be proportional to this quantity squared. Or somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 times the pressure loss. So you still think it doesn't matter you aren't using a bigger diameter line?

-Dan

[Mike Williamson 198]

At 2.7 gallons/min flow rate - my pressure washer would push the entire contents of the line through that tiny little nozzle approximately every 1.4 seconds - assuming it could overcome the resistance of the line. In contrast with the larger 3/8" line - it contains 33.14 cubic inches of volume!!!!!!!!! Or 2.45 cups - which means assuming the pressure washer is able to over come the restrictions of the hose - it takes about 3.44 seconds to empty the contents of the line vs. 1.4 seconds. So the pump needs an extra 2 seconds to empty the contents of the larger line - this means the speed of the flow of water through the hose is drasically reduced! Remember pressure losses go up with the square of the speed - in this case the speed of the water in the smaller line is roughly 2.5 times faster - so the frictional losses would be proportional to this quantity squared. Or somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 times the pressure loss. So you still think it doesn't matter you aren't using a bigger diameter line?

-Dan

I think that's basically what I was saying when I said "The only thing that makes any sense to me as a possibility is that in a 1/4" hose, there is a much greater percentage of the water creating friction against the walls of the hose, so you would have a more significant pressure loss than you would with a 3/8" hose"

I think I had pretty much figured out where I had gone wrong with my last post!

[PLD 14]

Mike,

Skipping all the complex energy loss equations, try/visualize this. For any given pump-hose-gun combo, take your pressure gauge and hook it everywhere there is a coupler starting at the pump and work your way toward the gun. As you get farther from the pump, you will see the gauge drop. It may only drop a few hundred#'s, but it will drop. That is pressure loss due to line friction. Increase or decrease the hose diameter and you will see the losses increase or decrease due proportionally.

Where does all that energy go? Primarily it changes into heat. The amount is negligible, and is masked by the fact that the resultant heat is carried away quickly. Ideally, if you took a super-sensitive thermometer and followed the same path, you would see the water temp rise as the line pressure fell off.

In Dan's case, it is highly probable that he was unloading. And with an integrated unloader, he would never know it.... I suspect unloading because the switch to a larger hose would be apparent, but not to the degree he described. I switch all day from 4.0 to 5.5 and while is it noticible, it's not that dramatic.

Dan: If you want to make money washing houses, I can not stress strongly enough that you buy a larger machine. If you think a 2.3 is a beast, working with a 5.5 would bring tears of joy to your eyes. I don't mean the following comments to be ugly, but to set some perspective for you: I almost laughed when you said that it almost smacked you in the head. I one hand my 5.5 all day long with no lance attached. And the 4.0 feels like a garden hose. Sure, the 5.5 shortie gets a little tiring on the wrist sometimes but I could work a 2.3 one handed while juggling with the other hand.

Anyway, like I said before I'm not trying to brag or be ugly. I just want you to understand that if you think you're happy now, there's a whole new world awaiting you. You've just gone from insufferable to barely sufferable. You can still step up to "nice to use", "fun to use", and "damn that was fast". Go find a good used 5.5/3000/cold and learn what it's like to do a good job FAST.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Mike,

Skipping all the complex energy loss equations, try/visualize this. For any given pump-hose-gun combo, take your pressure gauge and hook it everywhere there is a coupler starting at the pump and work your way toward the gun. As you get farther from the pump, you will see the gauge drop. It may only drop a few hundred#'s, but it will drop. That is pressure loss due to line friction. Increase or decrease the hose diameter and you will see the losses increase or decrease due proportionally.

Where does all that energy go? Primarily it changes into heat. The amount is negligible, and is masked by the fact that the resultant heat is carried away quickly. Ideally, if you took a super-sensitive thermometer and followed the same path, you would see the water temp rise as the line pressure fell off.

In Dan's case, it is highly probable that he was unloading. And with an integrated unloader, he would never know it.... I suspect unloading because the switch to a larger hose would be apparent, but not to the degree he described. I switch all day from 4.0 to 5.5 and while is it noticible, it's not that dramatic.

Thanks for clearing that up! I kinda figured after thinking about it a bit that it was line friction...

Dan: If you want to make money washing houses, I can not stress strongly enough that you buy a larger machine. If you think a 2.3 is a beast, working with a 5.5 would bring tears of joy to your eyes. I don't mean the following comments to be ugly, but to set some perspective for you: I almost laughed when you said that it almost smacked you in the head. I one hand my 5.5 all day long with no lance attached. And the 4.0 feels like a garden hose. Sure, the 5.5 shortie gets a little tiring on the wrist sometimes but I could work a 2.3 one handed while juggling with the other hand.

Anyway, like I said before I'm not trying to brag or be ugly. I just want you to understand that if you think you're happy now, there's a whole new world awaiting you. You've just gone from insufferable to barely sufferable. You can still step up to "nice to use", "fun to use", and "damn that was fast". Go find a good used 5.5/3000/cold and learn what it's like to do a good job FAST.

I couldn't agree more!

Talk about laughing, I was cleaning a roof this morning. I had just started spraying the roof (with a roller pump set to about 5gpm) when I heard a high pitched moter going. I looked over, and two doors down there is Joe Homeowner blasting away at his roof with a small (can you say 2.3gpm?) pressurewasher. He had a pump up sprayer and a bottle of clorox up there with him, and he was blasting away full pressure about 4" from the roof surface. He was still blasting that same side of the roof when I climbed down and started rolling my hoses up. He's probably still up there. But hey, he saved a couple hundred bucks, and only took a few years off the life of his roof!

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Dan,

You basically doubled your hose length, and gained around 75 psi at the same time. You could add another 100 feet and still have more pressure than the 1/4" at 25 feet.

[plainpainter 217]

I guess that's true Alan - about getting longer hose. But for now 50' is fine.

You have to remember, I am mostly a painter by trade - so I am use to such things that drive you pressure washers insane, i.e. climbing up ladders, tugging the pressure washer around the house as we go, using pump-up sprayers, using small machines. Really - of all the guys I know - my machine is a beast! I know that makes you guys laugh - but I do pressure washing 10% of the time - so having a 50' hose - and my 2900psi machine at 2.3GPM

with all these new pressuretek nozzles - it's alot of fun. I got this machine for $300 and it was only used once. So when I have extra cash - maybe I will step up. I know there is a whole other world - and then there is hot water pressure washing - it never ends.

-Dan

[Mike Williamson 198]

I guess that's true Alan - about getting longer hose. But for now 50' is fine.

You have to remember, I am mostly a painter by trade - so I am use to such things that drive you pressure washers insane, i.e. climbing up ladders, tugging the pressure washer around the house as we go, using pump-up sprayers, using small machines. Really - of all the guys I know - my machine is a beast! I know that makes you guys laugh - but I do pressure washing 10% of the time - so having a 50' hose - and my 2900psi machine at 2.3GPM

with all these new pressuretek nozzles - it's alot of fun. I got this machine for $300 and it was only used once. So when I have extra cash - maybe I will step up. I know there is a whole other world - and then there is hot water pressure washing - it never ends.

-Dan

Stay on this board and learn, get a "real machine" and you might just find youself preferring to wash 100% of the time! From what I've heard from the painters I have spoken with, the money is better.

Personally, I hate to paint! Just painted a house for a customer...hated every minute of it!

[CCPC 26]

Personally, I hate to paint! Just painted a house for a customer...hated every minute of it!

I hate painting myself, don't have the patients for it. That's the main reason I don't like wood restoration either. Sometimes I don't mind cleaning or stripping em, but I almost always leave the staining for someone else.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I hate painting myself, don't have the patients for it. That's the main reason I don't like wood restoration either. Sometimes I don't mind cleaning or stripping em, but I almost always leave the staining for someone else.

I'll stain the easy ones...meaning the ones where there is little to no detail work. For example, just did one (a clean and re-seal of one I did two years ago) last month that is out in the middle of the yard. Nothing around it but dirt, leaves, etc. That one was EASY to seal!

The painting did go easier once I figured out it was much easier to tape everything off and spray it rather than try rolling it and cutting in.

[Richard 17]

Switching over to an airless system for staining. Three to stain tomorrow if mother nature co-operates.