Honest debate Iraq

[Jeff 232]

I'm just wondering what everybody's opinion is on the Iraq war. You can't trust our politicians to really be honest when debating the war and I'd just like to know what others think about it. Now most know that I'm liberal in my thinking. With that said I do and always have believed in a strong military, VERY strong. I believed in the war in Afghanistan.

On the Iraq war I never believed it was a good idea and I never really believed that George Bush was going to Iraq for terrorism & 9/11. I know many will say that I'm a GWBush hater but besides that whats your feelings on Iraq

I always thought GW Bush was going to war with Iraq even before 9/11, he didnt like Saddam since Saddam tried to put a hit on GBush Sr.

Do you think the entire war or some of it has been handled wrong, should we have ever gone, should we stay the course for unlimited time, should we have a date in mind to start pulling troops. should we institute a draft so our stressed military gets a break, should we send a couple hundred thousand more troops and squash the insurgency and bring Iraq back to order

I personally think we never should of gone. We had Saddam contained and he kept Iran in check, now Iran doesnt give a crap what anyone one says and Europe is a bunch of s--- heads and will never support us.

I'm thinking back the troops back to outer areas and see what happens if Iraq seperates so be it. Im thinking we should get our troops out within the next 2 years and only leave a small amount of troops to try to watch out over our interests

I hate the thought that we are fighting a losing battle for a country that is fighting its self and will end up hating us anyway.

As for the middle east, just about all of it is starting to hate us the U S. Hell I'd like to nuke them all right about now and take all the oil. I think Muslims in that area are going to always hate us and its going to get worse.

What do you think, I'm not trying to start a big fight I'm just trying to see what others think other than what you hear or read in the news

I want our mititary that is doing tour after tour home, either get out completly or draft others to fight.

God Bless Our Troops & The USA

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'm simply curious how our government and media block our access to these news sites that are surely out there!

Not blocked, propagandism!

Seek the answers for yourself and you shall appreciate them better.

btw, sorry for the allusions to my perspective which as supported by others in this thread but just so you know, I will not be drawn out in public. I have not the need to justify to anyone else what I have experienced but encourage others to look deeper into things they would not normally concern themselves with and find out how extensive the control really is. The question was asked of my opinion on the Iraq situation and I have given all that I feel is necessary. The rest is up to others to decide if they wish to delve deeper and pursue the truth.

I am only a messenger. The choice is for everyone else to make on what to do or not to do.

Does anyone remember Eisenhower's departing speech? "Beware the Military Industrial Complex. Do not trust them or grant them power" Take it from there.

Rod!~

[Dan Stapleton 14]

Hot Shot,

I'm with God (and you). It's a comfort to KNOW Christ will sort it (and us) all out in the end.

[The Cleaner 14]

Hot Shot,

I'm with God (and you). It's a comfort to KNOW Christ will sort it (and us) all out in the end.

Well im happy for you.I will pass that on to my friend who's son was raped and molested buy a priest calling himself a man of GOD..I am sure there is a God but it's everyone's interpitation of God that is the problem..I am done with this topic....

[Dan Stapleton 14]

Well im happy for you.I will pass that on to my friend who's son was d and molested buy a priest calling himself a man of GOD..I am sure there is a God but it's everyone's interpitation of God that is the problem..I am done with this topic....

You're equating a Catholic Priest and what he did to a child with what I said?...... Get some sleep.

[Jeff 232]

OK back to the honest debate, now we are talking about rape & propaganda.

Its really strange how two people can read or see the same thing and interpet it totally different. Thats us crazy humans

I still say nuke the middle east

[RCBill 14]

I didn't read most of the posts. This has got to be painful for people.

I did see a reference to Vietnam. I am of the age where Vietnam was a milestone. When I was sixteen or so, there was a venomous argument about our participation in that war. It was ‘Hawks’ versus ‘Doves’. There is little difference in the arguments now as then.

[Scott Stone 604]

AC guy said we were still in Vietnam. No, we left about 30 some years ago and left them to their own devices.

No we did not!!! We may have pulled out the majority of our fighting troops, ground and air support. But, we are still in the areas, with US embassy and outpost' and bases, and airfields as with most countries we have been to war with or have been peace keepers with.

http://vietnam.usembassy.gov/

with that embassy there are troops assigned, they live at a military base and have guns and bullets and all kind of things that make big explosions for the protection of the citizens and our interest' of that country not 30 years ago but today.

Our presence has also kept a sense of peace and have created a pretty nice tourist economy for the area.

30 years I will agree with, that we pulled out the majority of our troops.

... but that we pulled out entirely.....NO (just like you said) nope, not true, no matter how convincing your statement might read or how right you like to make yourself sound on this point. It's just not true..... we always have US interest' to protect in other countries because we have our hands in so much of the world peace mix.

There is a bit of a difference betwen combat troops and troops protecting embassies. Additionally, it was 30 years ago that the US embassy was closed down. For your information, here is a chronology of events as it relates to Vietnam. http://www.oakton.edu/user/~wittman/chronol.htm You will notice on April 29 and 30th the american personnel were evacuated. You will also notice that in 1991 a US office was extablished to help research MIA's from the Vietnam war. That means that for 16 years there was no official representation of the US in Vietnam. So consequently, I will stand by my statement and still assert that the US presence in Vietnam, and the continuation of the battle as you attempt to assert is correct. Of course, to be clear, that statemetn is, the US pulled out of Vietnam 30 some years ago. We did reestablish an embassy there, but from your statement it appears you think that the US is still fully involved in the conflict.

IN fact relations were not normalized for another four years, or until 1995 when the embassy was reestablished.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

***2 posters were edited for content due to personally directed comments by each other. There is no reason to get personal here and conduct ourselves in anything less than a polite and respectful manner. This is a debate set by a member and it was going well. All can see there are some people to whom this is of major importance to them by the amount of history and information given. Let's maintain our decorum and avoid getting personal. ***

Rod!~

[dgold42 14]

Great post Don:) I was going to chime in but your post said it all.

It's nice to see people with different views express them with respect for each other. Here on the east coast it primarely liberal with most people I talk to have no clue as to what there talking about. Some actually think that 911 was the first time we were attacked by terrorist.

I don't mind if someone has an opposing view but at least be informed about the topic.

Great group of people here!

Dan

[dgold42 14]

Great post Don:) I was going to chime in but your post said it all.

It's nice to see people with different views express them with respect for each other. Here on the east coast it primarely liberal with most people I talk to have no clue as to what there talking about. Some actually think that 911 was the first time we were attacked by terrorist.

I don't mind if someone has an opposing view but at least be informed about the topic.

Great group of people here!

Dan

[Don L 14]

John T,

I get the impression that you are a socialist sympathiser.Are you privy to the planning of this war?You give the impression that you are.FYI,if you aren't supporting this war,you are not suporting the troops.I have had it with individuals mouthing that they "suport the troops",yet slander our Commander in Chief.As far as I am concerned ,your cover is blown.You have apparently seccumbed to your union propaganda.Unions ,in this day,and time,have outlived their usefulness.They have driven wages,the price of auto's etc..ad nausem,into an unrealistic delerium.Yeah,I know that spending 2/3 rds of the day eating baegles,and scratching your self is worth a ton of money,but ,frankly,I am sick of unions artifically driving up the minimum wage.It was never intended to be a living wage,but a starting wage.I am interested in your reaction.I don't wear your shoes,so I would like to hear your response.No offence intended,just curious.

[Jeff 232]

John T,

I get the impression that you are a socialist sympathiser.Are you privy to the planning of this war?You give the impression that you are.FYI,if you aren't supporting this war,you are not suporting the troops.I have had it with individuals mouthing that they "suport the troops",yet slander our Commander in Chief.As far as I am concerned ,your cover is blown.You have apparently seccumbed to your union propaganda.Unions ,in this day,and time,have outlived their usefulness.They have driven wages,the price of auto's etc..ad nausem,into an unrealistic delerium.Yeah,I know that spending 2/3 rds of the day eating baegles,and scratching your self is worth a ton of money,but ,frankly,I am sick of unions artifically driving up the minimum wage.It was never intended to be a living wage,but a starting wage.I am interested in your reaction.I don't wear your shoes,so I would like to hear your response.No offence intended,just curious.

As for supporting the troops , you can support somethings and disagree with parts. The President is Commander in Chief, but still is a civilian. I don't agree with following anything blindly. I only fully support what I want. I fully support our troops always & will always support them. I dont have to agree & support a president or anyone else just because

I dont go along with these Republicans that say if you dont support Bush, your against the troops or America its CRAP. I'm an American & Support the troops and some fool in Washington or anywhere else isnt going to tell me what I believe.

Not to pick on Republicans but a lot of people blindly supported Nixon, he was a paranoid crook etc. JFK was a womanizing rich man and i didnt agree with everything he did in history. A true American is one who can think on his own and question the leadership of the country if needed

As for unions & minimum wage. Unions help support me for many years as I was a union steel painter in Boston for many years. I worked very hard and on some very dangerous job sites and I earned EVERY cent I made. Also Having good benifits was nice

Min wage whats the matter with a higher Min Wage, if you think a raise of a dollar or two up to say $7.00 an hours is a living wage, try to live off it. The Min wage is only a starting wage

[Mike Williamson 198]

As for supporting the troops , you can support somethings and disagree with parts. The President is Commander in Chief, but still is a civilian. I don't agree with following anything blindly. I only fully support what I want. I fully support our troops always & will always support them. I dont have to agree & support a president or anyone else just because

I agree completely here...I can be 100% behind our troops, behind what they're doing, and still dislike the President, and/or some or all of what he is doing. Blind patriotism is what has led to dictatorships in the past elsewhere. I'm not saying we're at risk of that here, now, but the fact remains that blind patriotism is just silly. We live in a free country and one of ouir most important rights is our ability to speak out against our leaders if we see the need.

Now, to clarify, I don't think Bush is evil, I don't think he's stupid, and I do agree with much of what he's accomplished so far. Some things I don't agree with.

Not to pick on Republicans but a lot of people blindly supported Nixon, he was a paranoid crook etc. JFK was a womanizing rich man and i didnt agree with everything he did in history. A true American is one who can think on his own and question the leadership of the country if needed

We need Reagan back. Any ideas? LOL!

As for unions & minimum wage. Unions help support me for many years as I was a union steel painter in Boston for many years. I worked very hard and on some very dangerous job sites and I earned EVERY cent I made. Also Having good benifits was nice

Min wage whats the matter with a higher Min Wage, if you think a raise of a dollar or two up to say $7.00 an hours is a living wage, try to live off it. The Min wage is only a starting wage

I agree, in some cases unions have been able to negotiate better wages for jobs like yours. On the other hand, they have also been able to negotiate artificially high wages for relatively low skilled jobs. Why should a guy standing on an assembly line doing mindless work be making $20.00 or $30.00/hour just because he's in a union? Artificially high wages raises the cost of products, and drives business and businesses to other countries where labor is cheaper. Unions protect incompetence. Union actions have killed major companies. Can you say "Eastern Airlines"??

As far as minimum wage, I've always believed that wages should be based on performance. Even a relatively stupid employer knows that it's better to pay more for good employees than to pay low wages for incompetence. As someone else pointed out, minimum wage wasn't designed to be a living wage, but a starting point. If you are working somewhere and you stay at minimum wage, the likely reason is YOU. You've either picked a "profession" that is very unskilled, or you're one of those employees who does enough to get by...not lousy enough to get fired but not valuable enough to promote. Why should the government force the employer of a person like this to give them a raise? That's just silly.

[Don L 14]

Hey Jeff,

I began a reply to your points,but it got blown out by something stupid I did.If it shows up somewhere else I apologize.I will start again.

To your comment about the President being a civilian.I believe that the weight of his office,and the commiserate responsibilities,that accompany his office,remove him from the category of civilian.I am not aware of any "civilians" that have the blood of American troops on their hands.Is it that you believe that this man takes this lightly?How would you ,or I shoulder this?I also must repeate that you cannot "support "the troops without supporting the orders that they dutifully follow;issued by their Commander in Chief.This is not to say that you are antagonistic towards our troops,but President Bush is their commander.

Concerning your point about "blind patriotisim".I could take umbrage with that comment,but I don't.Many of those that support President Bush,do not agree with ALL of his decisions,they question his decisions,as I have.As you are,I am a "true" American.Believe thou me.I support his philosophy,it has kept your a**,and mine ,from being blown to hell.

The final issue:your statement"Unions helped support me for many years..."That is precisely my point.I don't doubt your work,but unions foster a mind set of entitlement,and dependancy.They need to be dismantled.Who was it that footed the bill for your "benefits"?I also believe that you misunderstood what I said concerning the minium wage...The minimum wage is not,and was never intended to be a living wage,it is an entry level wage.I t is encumbant upon the worker to EARN above the living wage.Either by advancement ,or additional work.The day I let the union lobbyist's,and their bought ,and paid for butt licking polotition's determine what I pay an employee,is the day America dies.I own my biz,and even with the weight of so called "legislation"(I am spitting on the floor as I utter those last words),I will determine what an employee is worth,not some communist miscreant like...say..Chuck"flatfooted ambulance chaser" Schumer,or Little Bill Hillary.If a man does not work,he should not eat!It takes care of itself.Jeff great spirited conversation.I appreceiate it.Sorry about my spelling.

[Don L 14]

Hey Mike,

Ron rocked,actually had a pair.

To touch upon the unions,I worked in Albany,N.Y. for three years.Inside the Gov's office ,the chambers of the Seneate,assembly,every facet of this state's gov't,It was one of the most appalling things I have ever witnessed.If the N.Y. every man were privy to the things I heard,and witnessed(brought to you by the state worker's union...CSEA,Danny Donahue presiding..),there would be a revolution ,right here,right now.

[John T 744]

John T,

I get the impression that you are a socialist sympathiser.Are you privy to the planning of this war?You give the impression that you are.FYI,if you aren't supporting this war,you are not suporting the troops.I have had it with individuals mouthing that they "suport the troops",yet slander our Commander in Chief.As far as I am concerned ,your cover is blown.You have apparently seccumbed to your union propaganda.Unions ,in this day,and time,have outlived their usefulness.They have driven wages,the price of auto's etc..ad nausem,into an unrealistic delerium.Yeah,I know that spending 2/3 rds of the day eating baegles,and scratching your self is worth a ton of money,but ,frankly,I am sick of unions artifically driving up the minimum wage.It was never intended to be a living wage,but a starting wage.I am interested in your reaction.I don't wear your shoes,so I would like to hear your response.No offence intended,just curious.

Don L.,

I don't even know where to start with you about all these points that you brought up. I'll say this so you know I'm not just shooting from the hip with nothing to back it up. I served honorably for this country for 4 yrs in the Navy. I was in Haifa Isreal probably the most out of all the ports I visited. I was also in Beirut right after the Marines where killed in the baracks. Being on an anmphibious ship my job was to bring in new Marines to take the places of our fallen Hero's. If you ever saw the Movie "Saving Private Ryan" I was a Boat Coxain that drove those Mic 6 boats that had the marines in them. This was my job in the Navy and if it happened to be as drastic as it was during D-day in WWII I would have done my job for this country no questions asked because this is what I was asked to do. If it meant dying for my kids/family/friends and fellow Americans so they can have the great quality of life that I had then I would die honorably by serving my great country.

The point that you don't seem to understand is this..you can disagree a 100% with your president because its your right but dont ever ever slander our troops or tell people a propaganda lie that if you dont support the president then you are not supporting the troops. Thats a completely false statement and when you imply that my first impression is that you never served this country and your clueless about this issue. Another thing I voted for Bush Twice and his Father before that and truethfully this Bush has not done a very good job..I think most would agree with me here and I'm talking republicans, Democrats,Independents.etc. George W. Bush will not by any stretch of the imagination go down as one of our Great Presidents.

As for Unions once again I'm involved there and yes I do agree that in some cases Unions are hurtful to some Jobs...but..don't ever forget this..if Unions where to ever become obsolete where they no longer exist then you will see hard working people get canned because the've been with companies for years and worked there way up the payscale..only to be replaced by that young brat of a kid who could ever care less that he took there job for a tength of a salary. So Unions are needed and they are here to stay..........Not all Jobs need Unions but alot of them do..

K I lost track what all the other questions where.....

[Jeff 232]

Hey Jeff,

I began a reply to your points,but it got blown out by something stupid I did.If it shows up somewhere else I apologize.I will start again.

To your comment about the President being a civilian.I believe that the weight of his office,and the commiserate responsibilities,that accompany his office,remove him from the category of civilian.I am not aware of any "civilians" that have the blood of American troops on their hands.Is it that you believe that this man takes this lightly?How would you ,or I shoulder this?I also must repeate that you cannot "support "the troops without supporting the orders that they dutifully follow;issued by their Commander in Chief.This is not to say that you are antagonistic towards our troops,but President Bush is their commander.

Concerning your point about "blind patriotisim".I could take umbrage with that comment,but I don't.Many of those that support President Bush,do not agree with ALL of his decisions,they question his decisions,as I have.As you are,I am a "true" American.Believe thou me.I support his philosophy,it has kept your a**,and mine ,from being blown to hell.

The final issue:your statement"Unions helped support me for many years..."That is precisely my point.I don't doubt your work,but unions foster a mind set of entitlement,and dependancy.They need to be dismantled.Who was it that footed the bill for your "benefits"?I also believe that you misunderstood what I said concerning the minium wage...The minimum wage is not,and was never intended to be a living wage,it is an entry level wage.I t is encumbant upon the worker to EARN above the living wage.Either by advancement ,or additional work.The day I let the union lobbyist's,and their bought ,and paid for butt licking polotition's determine what I pay an employee,is the day America dies.I own my biz,and even with the weight of so called "legislation"(I am spitting on the floor as I utter those last words),I will determine what an employee is worth,not some communist miscreant like...say..Chuck"flatfooted ambulance chaser" Schumer,or Little Bill Hillary.If a man does not work,he should not eat!It takes care of itself.Jeff great spirited conversation.I appreceiate it.Sorry about my spelling.

I know union laborers that can spell better than you LOL LOL only kidding really

$5.45 an hour isnt even a starting wage, 10 years since a raise in the min wage just to long it should be adjusted. Whats the matter with uping the wage. The congress has given them self 10's of thousands in raises in the past ten years. They work for us but we really dont have any say in how much they give themselves. Thats like one of my employee's calling my payroll company and saying i want $xxxx raise without me knowing.

Good debate. I'm still amazed how people see 2 differents sides to the same story.

[Jeff 232]

Hey Mike,

Ron rocked,actually had a pair.

To touch upon the unions,I worked in Albany,N.Y. for three years.Inside the Gov's office ,the chambers of the Seneate,assembly,every facet of this state's gov't,It was one of the most appalling things I have ever witnessed.If the N.Y. every man were privy to the things I heard,and witnessed(brought to you by the state worker's union...CSEA,Danny Donahue presiding..),there would be a revolution ,right here,right now.

When it comes to unions some have hurt over time but big Business basically have their own unions too HUH!! They are called lobbyist.

Why cant the working man have representation(unions) in Washington or on the state level when big biz has it. You cant tell me lobbyist are for us, no they represent the small majority that can pay access to our goverment

What/How does the average man get access to our own goverment. He cant

[HotShot 34]

What/How does the average man get access to our own goverment. He cant

Vote....that's how we express our opinions in politics.

[Jeff 232]

Don L.,

I don't even know where to start with you about all these points that you brought up. I'll say this so you know I'm not just shooting from the hip with nothing to back it up. I served honorably for this country for 4 yrs in the Navy. I was in Haifa Isreal probably the most out of all the ports I visited. I was also in Beirut right after the Marines where killed in the baracks. Being on an anmphibious ship my job was to bring in new Marines to take the places of our fallen Hero's. If you ever saw the Movie "Saving Private Ryan" I was a Boat Coxain that drove those Mic 6 boats that had the marines in them. This was my job in the Navy and if it happened to be as drastic as it was during D-day in WWII I would have done my job for this country no questions asked because this is what I was asked to do. If it meant dying for my kids/family/friends and fellow Americans so they can have the great quality of life that I had then I would die honorably by serving my great country.

The point that you don't seem to understand is this..you can disagree a 100% with your president because its your right but dont ever ever slander our troops or tell people a propaganda lie that if you dont support the president then you are not supporting the troops. Thats a completely false statement and when you imply that my first impression is that you never served this country and your clueless about this issue. Another thing I voted for Bush Twice and his Father before that and truethfully this Bush has not done a very good job..I think most would agree with me here and I'm talking republicans, Democrats,Independents.etc. George W. Bush will not by any stretch of the imagination go down as one of our Great Presidents.

As for Unions once again I'm involved there and yes I do agree that in some cases Unions are hurtful to some Jobs...but..don't ever forget this..if Unions where to ever become obsolete where they no longer exist then you will see hard working people get canned because the've been with companies for years and worked there way up the payscale..only to be replaced by that young brat of a kid who could ever care less that he took there job for a tength of a salary. So Unions are needed and they are here to stay..........Not all Jobs need Unions but alot of them do..

K I lost track what all the other questions where.....

Good post John, Beruit, thanks for the service!!!!!!

[Jeff 232]

Vote....that's how we express our opinions in politics.

VOTE, I always do. Still doesnt give me or the average american person or worker access.

[Mike Williamson 198]

Vote....that's how we express our opinions in politics.

That works to a very limited degree. You might be surprised at the number of people who vote strictly based on either what they've seen on TV/heard on radio/read in print, or based on name recognition. They don't think about the issues, they don't really care...So basically the politician with big purse strings has a LOT of advantage over the opponent who doesn't...

[John T 744]

That works to a very limited degree. You might be surprised at the number of people who vote strictly based on either what they've seen on TV/heard on radio/read in print, or based on name recognition. They don't think about the issues, they don't really care...So basically the politician with big purse strings has a LOT of advantage over the opponent who doesn't...

Such is the way of life. Unfortunetly not enough people care and alot of these type people are the first ones to forget something as drastic as 9-11. If anyone here watches the show "Rescue Me" there was a great part in there last week when The main Character yells out in the bar to anyone that will listen stating that he bets not one person in there can name one fallen firefighter who died that day when the BDLG's came crashing down..Yup you got it not one person could........

[Jimmy M 14]

haven't read all of this thread, I plan to when I get the time,after reading a couple of post I felt compelled to say that I am thankful to God that Algore wasn't prez. when 9/11 happened. I doubt bin laden wanted to hold hands and all of us just get along feeling warm and fuzzy inside.

[Don L 14]

John T.'

First off ,I stand corrected ,and do apologize for my first impression of your character.You are correct in saying that I never served our country.When I was a youth,it did not occur to me to do so.When the first war was waged upon Iraq,I was in the receuiter's office the next day,and he informed me that by the time I would be done with "basic training",the war would would be over.I spent 1 hour attempting to dissuade him,wouldn't budge.

John,thank you for your service to this country,for laying your life on the line.I respect that more than you believe.

I will,however say that there is no basis for your accusation of "slander" concerning our troops.Believe me ,if I would have been allowed in,I would be one of you.I will repeate myself ,as troops ,you are bound to obey the orders of your commander in chief.End of that discussion.In your opinion,our President hasen't done a good job.Unless you are privy to information that I am not,you are simply mistaken.What would you do John?I refuse to argue about G.W.'s place in history,you have no clue either.Please.

Now,your next point...unions are somehow necessary...

Can you say Delphi? The propaganda that somehow socialist orgs protect "job's".I ask you to substainiate this .It it part of your indoctrination.Unions must be dismantled.It is time for America to shed the lie of the "great society",and move on.Unions have ALWAYS been subserviant to ownership.The weakness of ownership is the only thing that has allowed the socialist concept of labor unions to take root,in our capitalist economy.

John,I respect your stance,but respectfully disagree.

Thank you for your response.