Ron M's great caustic debate - split from another thread

[racechaser 64]

unless mistaken YES, beth said she found it

Besides I told you to back up your statements!!!

You know that is the whole reason you are the only one qualified to post on a subject because you claim you back up everything you say. so back it up.

Still waiting..............

scott

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Beth, I will anwer. running out the door. would not want to confuse anyone else so i will sit down tonight and try to anwer so not taken out of context.

Thanks

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Go find it yourself Ron. If it is the one I think it is, it's in the split PWNA thread, and Mel ( PWKID) authored it. I have thought it was odd for over a day now, that you were lighting into Scott for what Mel wrote.

Beth

[Ron Musgraves 240]

My apology to Scott, If you knew this why did you wait to say something until now?

LOL thats funny.....

So sorry scott, truly...

[racechaser 64]

My apology to Scott, If you knew this why did you wait to say something until now?

LOL thats funny.....

So sorry scott, truly...

duh....I have been!!! You weren't reading or listening!!!!

Scott

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ron, we have been trying to tell you but sometimes you are stubborn and don't listen. Go eat with your family and enjoy the evening.

It's all good...

Beth

[Mathew Johnson 123]

I though my threads were entertaining, LOL I cant even hold a candle to this!

[PWkid 79]

Ok I just went back through the posts and am so confused. Ron is upset with what I wrote or with Scott or Mike or Rod or Beth. I have a signature and always have had one.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Methinks...it was that whole post about a teacher and the SH chem....method and salespitch post...

Beth

[PWkid 79]

That post had nothing to do with RON. Am I still confused?

[racechaser 64]

confused

That was the theory Ron said you could figure out if you read the post.

The whole theory reads something like this....One part Ron ********** into any post equals confusion among reader.

Scott

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

That post had nothing to do with RON. Am I still confused?

I guess he didn't like it....

That's the only thing I can figure...

Beth

[Mike Williamson 198]

Here's what was said in the other thread leading up to this thread being split off...from the beginning...

I'd really really like to see what method the PWNA calls "approved" for roof cleaning! Do any PWNA members sell Sodium Hydroxide products? If so, I'd be willing to be that's the approved method.

Check your September issue of Cleaner Times - the PWNA article was about roof cleaning and I'm certain that Beth insured that what was in the article was the "approved" method by the PWNA.

Celeste

It is my understanding that during the courses (of which I have never attended BTW) the instructors do not use name brands during instruction, only the chemical name. BUT, if the class is held through a SunBrite store, what do you think happens after the class?

Celeste

Good thing there are some experienced roof cleaners here in FL who are willing to hold free "training classes" showing folks the proper way to clean a shingle or tiled roof!

All of the methods that are used are in line with ARMA and the CS&SB.

That I know from my research.

Beth

Well that's reassuring. Glad to hear it!!!

OH SWEET MOSES! I have ONE WORD............ UNBELIEVABLE. I just read these posts. Then I went to sunbrite's supply website Who I THOUGHT SOMEBODY else OWNED. This is the ROOF CLEANER they SELL.

This kit makes 55 gallons of concentrate, which is enough to clean about 20 average asphalt or tile roofs when used with cold water machines, and even more when used with a hot water machine. The formula is balanced to be strong enough to attack roof algae and stains while being as gentle as possible on the surface. Cleans roofs with gentle agitation and low pressure. Rinses free at any temperature. Contains sodium hydroxide. USDA approved.

COSTS LESS THAN $5 PER ROOF TO USE!

94443$128.

USDA APPROVED : WHEN in The HELL did the USDA get into roof cleaning!!!!!!! UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT of AGRICULTURE. I can't figure out WHY THE USDA would APPROVE a DEGREASER TO CLEAN ASPHALT SHINGLE ROOFS. I think I might have to make a phone call to the USDA. I am not sure WTF is going on with the PWNA but if someone is promoting Sodium Hydroxide and TEACHING this in his ( so called roof cleaning CLASSES) I have WASTED another $ 195.00 on the PWNA.

Mel,

It might be an ingredient in the product but I doubt it is a chemical they teach you to use.

Beth

HUH! Beth, sodium hydroxide IS the main ingredient. Someone is teaching the ROOF cleaning section sponsored by the PWNA am I not correct? He is the Owner of SUNBRITE SUPPLY well maybe not on PAPER but he is affiliated am I not correct? Beth do you see my point.

I agree with Mel that if he is teaching roof cleaning, getting paid for it, and promoting products he sells, something stinks.

I can say from personal experience that the roof cleaner Sunbrite sells doesn't work well, at least in my experience. That's the first, and last, roof I ever cleaned with SH. Thank GOD I had chlorine on the trailer that day. After two hours of applying chems as instructed, and blasting the crap out of the roof and getting mediocre results, I cleaned the last 2/3 of it with chlorine in an hour.

The problem with chlorine is that companies can't very easily package it and sell it as a miracle cleaner.

We should hope all our competion attends the PWNA roof cleaning class. Best thing for business yet.

Scott

In regards to what ever is being taught vs what is being sold is purely speculative unless anyone here has actually taken a class and can verify this first hand. I think we should stick to the initial post of this thread which is the main topic.

Rod!~

So why do you think its a bad process?

[Classic_k 14]

Tried the New Product from Canada on gutters that hadn't been cleaned in about 5 years. This product has no butyls or acids in it. I am sure it would work on your roofs. After cleaning the gutters with this product it did not hurt the paint. It took the oxidation and left it film free. It also did not hurt the plants or the grass.

Classic_k

[plainpainter 217]

After a short perusing of this thread - I think the soul of Ron's comments are that you can't judge a process just by the ingredients you use. It depends upon other parameters such as how little or how much of the said ingredients you use or with what other chemicals is it mixed with or what temperatures they are applied with. I mean if you state absolutes such as - sodium hydroxide is dangerous, without qualifying how it it dangerous, then you may be mislead into thinking all cosmetics and toiletries that contain sodium hydroxide are harmful and shouldn't be bought - well, guess what - lots of toiletries and cosmetics in fact do contain sodium hydroxide and many on products that claim 'hypo-allergenic'. Just goes to show you can't make absolute statements - everything has exceptions and every statement should be followed with a 'well, it isn't that simple'.

This reminds me of the many times Rod claims that bleach is bad for wood - not going off topic - just using an example. What Rod failed to do was qualify with a statement such as - bleach is harmful for wood if used at rates higher than 200ppm and at dwells of anything longer than 2 minutes or without surfactants, etc, etc, etc. The fact is bleach may be very harmful for wood in the wrong hands using the wrong methods - but may be made very safe depending upon what other chemicals that are mixed with it, at certain dilutions, with certain dwell times, and of course followed by proper neutralization techniques - there are products out there called 'Bleach stop' Any chemical in improper dilutions, improperly mixed, improperly applied can cause nightmares - Absolute statements are junk - another that comes to mind is that linseed oil products are a veritable feast for mold and mildew - ha ha ha ah aha hahaa ha......until next time.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I think the soul of Ron's comments are that you can't judge a process just by the ingredients you use.

after reading more then half this torturous thread..I think I'll stay away from calling someone for explaination as I might be belittled or might even not become more educated from said phone call.

But anyways......Daniel do you think the use of absolute language can actually speak to and be interpritted better by ears that might be uneducated on processes that should be used while handling chemicals?

For instance..When I speak to a child I adjust my skills in a way that the child can understand as the child needs discipline and they deal in absolutes. When speaking to a child I speak as a child with my best adult judgement and their safety at heart. In my business I often speak absolutes to customers when dealing with their maintenance procedures cause I usually make early attempt to understand their abilities or knowledge and I have adult discriminitive ability. The moment I know they are uneducated on process or amounts they can use of a chemical I have to deem them irrresponsable enough to use the chemical at all until they are. I can relate this to my usual speal of how freedom without responsability is anarchy..Anarchy will blow ya up,poison ya, or pretty much ruin everything.

So what ya think about exceptions to the usual advice of not speaking in absolutes???,, :)

Phrases like "such as" like you used above are so important but can be ignored by some..aren't they?..

[Littlefield 65]

Kevin, absolutes are easy. They make a sales presentation easier. Better, though? I'm not sure of that. there is of course a danger in overeducating a customer to the point that you "lose" them "talking shop".

I think a responsible way to handle this balancing act is to practice simplification in explanations, rather than fall back on easy absolutes. They leave you too exposed. The next guy along can add more information, and make it look like you were lying, instead of informing.

IE the linseed oil argument that claims it always breeds mold and mildew, easy, but not really correct. The correct explanation of why a stain may be failing that has linseed oil in it may seem too complicated to explain to a customer, but with a little forethought, we as professionals can simplify difficult explanations and not lie, or mislead, or omit, but rather educate truthfully in a simple way.