Ron M's great caustic debate - split from another thread

[Ron Musgraves 240]

We should hope all our competion attends the PWNA roof cleaning class. Best thing for business yet.

Scott

So why do you think its a bad process?

[racechaser 64]

So why do you think its a bad process?

Not sure I understand the question. My response was total sarcasm as to what is going to be taught. Sodium Hydroxide is the worst thing to use in my opinion.That is what they are teaching if Henry owns sunbrite and that's the product he sells.

Sodium Hypochlorite is the only way to properly clean a roof.If they cleaned with caustic like in his cleaner, they would either go out of business or quit cleaning roofs.

Them going to a PWNA roof cleaning class more of less meant less competition to us that use sodim hypochlorite.

Scott

[racechaser 64]

So why do you think its a bad process?

If you are asking why sodium hydroxide is a bad process then all I should ask you is this:

What do you use to break up oil stains on concrete??

A degreaser made up of sodium hydroxide?

What holds the granules on a shingle? Tar or some similar organic carbon substance.

So if it attacks oil on concrete, then what is it doing(when applied to the roof) to the coat of tar holding the granule on?

Plus it takes about 500 PSI to wash the roof as opposed to garden hose with hypochlorite.

Scott

[Ron Musgraves 240]

That’s too funny, I thought maybe you knew what you where talking about?

Those chemicals are one in the same. LOL

I don’t use caustic or what you may think is different sodium hydroxide to remove oil from concrete.

It’s cheap and inexpensive; the only problem is that it destroys any petroleum based product.

99% of my cleaning asphalt exists.

The real reason is that it changes elements when in contact with unknown surface. Most of you contractors don’t even understand PH much less composition.

Take a chemistry class before you accuse a method or process of being incorrect.

All my chemicals are mix in house and proprietary to PROPOWERWASH.

One more note, are you real? You have no signature. No identity no nothing.

I’m Ron **********, been washing and leading the industry for 24 years.

Let me hear your identity, and your experience.

[Mike Williamson 198]

That’s too funny, I thought maybe you knew what you where talking about?

Those chemicals are one in the same. LOL

No, Sodium Hydroxide and Sodium Hypochlorite are not the same.

[racechaser 64]

No, Sodium Hydroxide and Sodium Hypochlorite are not the same.

Well Ron, I don't have 24 years years like you. I'm sorry that I assumed your mix included Sodium hydroxide.

I don't know how you are confused into thinking I don't know that caustic is the same as Sodium Hydroxide.I read my response over three times and still can't understand where you got that from.

Unless you are speaking of what Mike said. But I give you more credit than that.

I am not a chemist, but I do understand PH. I use caustic (sodium hydroxide) every day at my full time job. A chemical plant. You see there we mix chemicals, react chemicals, and are constantly adjusting ph with HCL and caustic to get the right formulation and control yields. On a 12 hour shift I use about 140,000 pounds of caustic to regulate ph.

As far as the sig line I've been meaning to that, but it's all in my profile.Never saw the need as urgent.If that makes me a phantom I'm sorry.

As far as washing a roof with caustic(one in the same with sodium hydroxide) I STAND BEHIND IT 100% !!! WRONG PROCESS!!!!! 500 psi is too much pressure for a roof. Sodium hypochlorite(bleach just so you're sure I know they are the same) is the best chemical for a roof and the one ARMA says to use.

Don't know what set you off Ron, but I'm sorry for it.

Scott

[Mike Williamson 198]

That’s too funny, I thought maybe you knew what you where talking about?

Those chemicals are one in the same. LOL

I don’t use caustic or what you may think is different sodium hydroxide to remove oil from concrete.

It’s cheap and inexpensive; the only problem is that it destroys any petroleum based product.

If I'm correct in interpreting your statement above, you're saying you use sodium hydroxide as a degreaser for concrete, but it will destroy petroleum products?

My question is, what do you think the "asphalt" in "asphalt shingles" is made of? Petroleum products. That's why Scott and I both agree that using a degreaser such as sodium hydroxide on asphalt shingle roofs is a bad idea...for the same reason you wouldn't use it on asphalt.

[racechaser 64]

If I'm correct in interpreting your statement above, you're saying you use sodium hydroxide as a degreaser for concrete, but it will destroy petroleum products?

My question is, what do you think the "asphalt" in "asphalt shingles" is made of? Petroleum products. That's why Scott and I both agree that using a degreaser such as sodium hydroxide on asphalt shingle roofs is a bad idea...for the same reason you wouldn't use it on asphalt.

Thanks Mike. I tried to use the quotes but it wouldn't work right (I was on my Mac). I can't understand why he won't use it on asphalt pavement because it destroys petroleum based products. But I'm some kind of dummy for not wanting to use it on asphalt shingles.

Confused as I am??? I'm just wondering if he was having a bad morning.

Scott

[Dan Stapleton 14]

Most of you contractors don't understand PH? Come on, man. I'm RON ********** leading the industry for 24 yrs. Don't you know how bad that sounds. Not to mention that you are WRONG.

[PWkid 79]

Hello Ron,I was and still am a Paramedic. We were taught the PH scale around the second or third day of class. Ron I am not sure why you come to these boards because obviously you know more than any other PW contractor and have nothing to learn. I learned along time ago when you stop learning its time to move on. I also worked for a chemical company back in the day and understand chemicals very well. Ron there is more to a chemical than just its ph level.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Exactly, then you realize that when you mix chemicals they change? YES

these chemicals do not have the same dna. but one sterilizes and the other is a cleaner.

The end result is find out what happens when petrolium products are mixed with both.

If you assumed i meant they are exactly alike, I'm sorry.

I also believe that caustic can be used more safely denpeing on the pH of the soil in your particular area.

Bleach is not eviromentally safe for eviroment. PERIOD........

Its a great cleaner and when the composition of the chemical is correct can be used.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I also believe that caustic can be used more safely denpeing on the pH of the soil in your particular area.

I have never even had anyone even discuss this aspect... Has anyone ever thougt about the damage they may be causing.

Certain areas of this great nation the pH is very high and others its very low.

When using caustics you need to know this, acids also.........

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Thanks Mike. I tried to use the quotes but it wouldn't work right (I was on my Mac). I can't understand why he won't use it on asphalt pavement because it destroys petroleum based products. But I'm some kind of dummy for not wanting to use it on asphalt shingles.

At the right formula it will not harm the asphalt, if caustic is left on the roof each and everytime it gets wet it will eat the roof. Unless it was netrulized....

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Most of you contractors don't understand PH? Come on, man. I'm RON ********** leading the industry for 24 yrs. Don't you know how bad that sounds. Not to mention that you are WRONG.

Sorry Dan, take your shiggles and throw them is a bucket of caustic with some water added. Try and find that shiggle in the morning....LOL

Not to mention is you test the bucket and find out what the new chemical in the bucket is??????????

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Did anyone here have a chemistry set?

didnt you ever mix things and create new things.

do you really think that when we use chemicals on unknown surfaces and wonder why it didnt perform as well or something strange happens?

do we get this now????

[Mike Williamson 198]

Bleach is not eviromentally safe for eviroment. PERIOD........

Says WHO??? Granted, it is harmful to SOME environments...for example, you would want to dump a load of chlorine in a fish pond or lake, but what real harm is 15 gallons of 10.5% sodium hydroxide every 5 or more years going to do to the environment around the house I'm cleaning?

[Mike Williamson 198]

Sorry Dan, take your shiggles and throw them is a bucket of caustic with some water added. Try and find that shiggle in the morning....LOL

Not to mention is you test the bucket and find out what the new chemical in the bucket is??????????

What "caustic" are you referring to?

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I may have mislead my original statement but if you want to challenge that results of these chemicals on asphalt products will be similair I will challenge.

The only different is one will work better agaist living organisms, because it kills them.

The other will also remove but may not sanitize the area, which will result in possible growth again.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Not to mention the tempertures of both!!!!!! oh temps, no one even knows what i'm talking about again.

I realize i may sound like a jerk, You guys need to study this stuff your self.

Often on a conrete cleaner is tell you it will destroy sealers.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

In this industry we use acids and caustics, some may use solvents for special types of sealers that require it.

Some use these in the form of organic, most of these are biodegradable. Which means they will go into the earth and become part of the earth in a safe form. Solvents and some corrosives will take longer than others and some will not change in our lifetime.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This is all very intersting, but we are sooooo far off topic that I think we will have to split this thread again.

Beth

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Thank you... the thread got hijacked... LOL

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Better yet, at the next roud table i go to i will bring the chemicals i use and you bring yours.

We can test safety and how well they perform.

I hear all the time how chemicals work so well, hot guys increase the mixture to make stronger.

I often wonder how much damage they are causing and wonder how that poor home owner is going to feel after they have taken life off the roof.

Home owners not even aware that they have damage, damage that will not start to show but life expectency of roof reduced.

I hear the same with the wood stuff and i dont know much about wood but i can tell you that over usage is the biggest factor and mistake made in our industry.

Bottom line is Both chemicals can be used safely, does anyone want the real answers? NO because if dist are challenged then people get upset.

is either one of these safe, no, not if used incorrectly.

My point was someone attacked a process and no one really said why is this process dangerous.

I think both are similair and i should have worded it better, the results of both will work. Both have side affects that could be negative. all usage can be dangerous.

Beth just said i'm off topic, I will continue in another thread.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

PWNA was challenged, ************* ? I'm was just trying to say it all depends? details !!!!!!!!!

[PWkid 79]

Sodium hydroxide v/s sodium hypochlorite Ron you will be disapointed on the results. The longevity of roofing material between both, well HUH . I really have to go right now Friday is DATE night with my wife I would much rather spend it with her. This will be continued and I am not talking about ARMA this is about experience. Ron I Don't have 24 YRS like you do and I know you are the PWing GO TO GUY.