Application methods

[Outlaw 14]

I use The X Jet to apply my house wash, the trouble I have is with the Gutter Zap, it wouldn't be economical to apply it the same way, I've been using a pump up sprayer and a vehicle brush on an extension pole to work it, which has worked fine except those darn pump ups don't last worth a dodo and they ain't cheap.

I was wondering how yall go about applying it.

Gav

[Paul B. 523]

Hudson makes some good pump-ups. The 3 gallon for example,

it's plastic with viton seals and a relief valve. You can get repair kit for it for about $8. The kit has o-rings, seals, etc.

The key to making the pumps last longer is to rinse it out at the end of each day. Rinse the tank, put clean water in it then pressureize it and clean out the hose, gun and wand with the fresh water.

www.SunBriteSupply.com sells a product which is more economical at about $21 per 5 gallons plus S&H - it's called AllBrite. It does a great job of cleaning streaks off gutters. At that price it may be economical enough to X-Jet. If not, you can brush it on with the truck brush.

[Outlaw 14]

Thanks Paul, at that price I reckn I'll try out the allbrite and the repair kits, and try not to be so lazy at roll up time!

Gav

[ParadiseProWash 14]

Originally posted by Outlaw

I use The X Jet to apply my house wash, the trouble I have is with the Gutter Zap, it wouldn't be economical to apply it the same way, I've been using a pump up sprayer and a vehicle brush on an extension pole to work it, which has worked fine except those darn pump ups don't last worth a dodo and they ain't cheap.

I was wondering how yall go about applying it.

Gav

Gav I just wanted to show you another view point and this is only my two cents worth. Time is money in this business as we all know. For the few cents you are saving by not X-Jetting the gutters you are wasting in time that it takes you to scrub the gutters. In other words would it not in the long run make you more money to get in and get out faster. AS stated above this is only my view point and is meant for discussion purposes only.

[Outlaw 14]

I know exactly what your saying Morgan, but there's 2 factors come into play for me.

1) My bussines hasn't progressed to the point where I am working 5 full days a week ( I wish it would), if that were the case, then "time is money" would certainly mean much more to me.

2) The cost of GZ is just to high for me to x-jet, with shipping i is costing me nearly $20 dollars a gallon, perhaps if I could find a local supplier where I could pick it up myself it would be different.

Though saying that, I am going to try Pauls suggestion and try the All-Brite, at that price I could afford to apply with the X-Jet, but I need to try it for myself to make sure I am happy with the results.

Gav

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Gav,

Your web links are not working, you need to throw in the www.

[ParadiseProWash 14]

Gav I fully understand what you are saying I was just wanting to through in another view point for you thats all. Good luck also have you tried the Gutter Shock it is twice as strong as the Zap. When applying the Shock I mix the solution 50/50 and then X-Jet on bad gutters and if their not that bad I back the solution down even more. Check the prices and compare the two plus factor in the fact that it can be X-Jetted and the time it will save you. Family time is worth something also. Just a thought!!!!!!:D

[Paul B. 523]

Morgan,

Just out of curiosity, what in specific makes Gutter Shock twice as strong as GZ??

[ParadiseProWash 14]

Paul Steves 675 and Gutter Zap are about the same in strength and yes I have used both so I am speaking from experience. Here is the MSDS sheet for the Gutter Shock off of Stevens Web site compare the two for yourself.

DESCRIPTION:

RPC 271 GUTTER SHOCK was designed especially for those stubborn gutter stains that require something stronger that RPC 675. This product is 50% stronger than RPC 675. Contains Sodium Hydroxide. USDA Approved.

PHYSICAL DATA:

Appearance / Odor: yellow / green / butyl

Physical State: Liquid

Boiling Point: 212° F

Freeze Point: 30° F

Specific Gravity: 105 pH Concentrate: 13.2

1% pH Dilution: 11.7

Solubility in Water: Complete

Vapor Pressure: 17mmHg

Vapor Density (air=1): >1

Evaporation Rate (water=1): >1

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

SECTION 1 PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION

ROWLETT PRESSURE CLEANING SERVICE

143 Rainbow Place

LaVergne, TN 37086

Inquiry Phone: (800) 357-6295

Emergency Phone: (800) 535-5035

Prepared on 1/4/01

PRODUCT NAME: RPC 271 GUTTER SHOCK

PRODUCT CODE: 22410

NFPA hazard codes: NFPA acute hazard rating:

Health: 2

Flammability: 0

Reactivity: 1

0 = Least

1 = Slight

2 = Moderate 3 = High

4 = Extreme

SECTION 2 CHEMICAL COMPOSITION

Note: List all CERCLA hazardous substances at l% or greater and CARCINOGENS at 0.1% or greater.

TLV / STEL /

INGREDIENT (chemical name) CAS# % range P E L TWA Ceiling Skin

Sodium Hydroxide 1310-73-2 <1 2mg/m³ N/A 2mg/m³

2-Butoxyethanol 111-76-2 <10 50ppm 25ppm 50 ppm *

Sodium Metasilicate 6834-92-0 <5 N/A N/A N/A

Sodium Ethylenediamina Tetraacetate 64-02-8 <5 N/A N/A N/A

NonylphenolPoly(oxyetheylene) 9016-45-2 <5 N/A N/A N/A

* Note: Sodium Hydroxide is a SARA TITLE III SECTION 304 material subject to reporting by user within the manufacturing section.

* OHSA requires skin protection to prevent or reduce exposure to this product.

SECTION 3 EMERGENCY & FIRST AID PROCEDURES

EYE CONTACT: Immediately flush with large amounts of water for at least l5 minutes, lifting upper and lower lids occasionally. Get immediate medical attention.

SKIN CONTACT: Immediately flush exposed area with water for at least 15 minutes. If irritation occurs, get medical attention.

INHALATION: Remove individual to fresh air. If symptoms persist, get immediate medical attention.

INGESTION: Do not induce vomiting. Dilute by giving water and fruit juice. Get immediate medical attention.

NOTE TO PHYSICIAN: Contains 2-Butoxyethanol and Sodium Hydroxide

SECTION 4 PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

PRIMARY ROUTE(S) OF ENTRY INTO BODY: Skin contact, Ingestion.

ACUTE EFFECTS:

Eyes: Redness, watering.

Skin: Redness, irritation.

Inhalation: Irritation, coughing.

Ingestion: Burning sensation, nausea.

CHRONIC EFFECTS: Causes liver and kidney damage.

SECTION 5 OCCUPATION CONTROL PROCEDURES

VENTILATION: Local exhaust.

PERSONAL PROTECTION:

Respirator type: None required if concentration is below TLV/PEL. Otherwise use NIOSH approved CCROV or better respirator.

Gloves: Chemical resistant gloves required.

Eye Protection: Chemical splash goggles.

SECTION 6 PHYSICAL DATA

Appearance/odor: Clear yellow / green / butyl

Physical state: Liquid

Boiling Point: 212° F

Freeze Point: 30° F

Specific Gravity: 1.05 pHconcentrate: 13.2

1 % pH dilution: 11.7

Solubility in water: Complete

Vapor pressure: 17 mmHg

Vapor density (air=1): >1

Evaporation rate (water= 1): >1

SECTION 7 FIRE & EXPLOSION DATA

Flash point: None.

Method: T.C.C.

Flammable (explosive) limits in air: N/A.

Suitable extinguishing media: Water/foam.

Hazardous combustion bi-products: Carbon Monoxide.

Recommended fire fighting procedures: Firefighters should wear waterproof protective clothing.

Unusual fire & explosive hazards: None.

SECTION 8 REACTIVITY DATA

Stability: Stable.

Conditions to avoid: Extreme high heat.

Hazardous decomposition products: None.

Hazardous polymerization: Will not occur.

Incompatibility:

Material to avoid: Strong acids.

Corrosive action on material: Moderate on soft metals such as aluminum.

SECTION 9 STORAGE & HANDLING PRECAUTIONS

Storage: Store at temperatures below 120° F. Do not allow to freeze.

Handling: Wear proper gloves, boots, eye and face protection when handling.

Precautionary labeling: Corrosive.

SECTION 10 ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION

Spill or leak procedures:

Small spill/leak: Neutralize with vinager or citric acid..

Large spill/leak: Mop up excess. Neutralize with vinager or citric acid. Collect solution in containers for disposal.

Spill reportable quantity: 100,000 pounds or more.

Waste disposal method: Consign to waste facility approved by federal, state, and local regulations.

RCRA or appropriate waste classification: By Characteristic.

Procedures for handling empty containers: Triple rinse.

Environmental toxicity data: Biodegradable.

Other regulatory controls:

Is material classified under the CLEAN WATER ACT (USA) or appropriate water regulations as:

Toxic pollutant? No.

Hazardous substance (SECTION 302)? No.

If yes, reportable quantity (R.Q.). N/A.

Is material classified under the CLEAN AIR ACT (USA) or appropriate CLEAN AIR regulations as:

Hazardous air pollutant (SECTION 12)? No.

SECTION 11 PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION

Indicate country/regulatory agency which specifies requirements: USA-DOT/IMO

Proper shipping name: COMPOUND, CLEANING, LIQUID (containing Sodium Hydroxide)

Hazard class: 8

Identification number: NA1760

Packing Group: II

Labels required: Product, Corrosive

PRODUCT NAME: RPC 271 GUTTER SHOCK

PRODUCT CODE: 22410

PREPARED: 1/4/01

I dont readily have the MSDS with me on the Zap but it you have one please compare the two.:D

[Paul B. 523]

Morgan,

I have the MSDS sheets for Gutter Shock, Gutter Zap, AllBrite, and Krud Kutter Original along with scores of others. They don't really tell you which product is better as they only list the hazardous and carcinogenic substances above specific levels. Example: <5% (less than 5%) Sodium Metasilicate does not tell you if it's 0.5% or 4.9%.

MSDS does however get you in the ballpark as usually (although not always) the key ingredients are hazardous.

Again, I was curious as to what in specific made you say that Gutter Shock is twice as strong as Gutter Zap??

As for the economy of the products (without shipping costs or taxes):

5 gallons of Gutter Zap is about $49 or $9.80 per gallon

5 gallon of Gutter Shock is about $49 or $9.80 per gallon

5 gallon of AllBrite is about $21.00 or $4.20 per gallon

15 gallons of AllBrite is about $55 or $3.67 per gallon

If you need a product with Sodium Hydroxide boost, adding 1/2 oz. of HD-80 per gallon (for example), would cost you less than $0.25 (less if you purchased HD-80 in 30# bulk - $0.18).

Again, I'm not saying which product is better (I have tested and have used all 4 of them) but I was in the same boat of looking for alternatives when I considered the overall cost (especially when blowing chemicals with an X-Jet). You can go thru 2 gallons of product very quickly just shooting it at gutters and downspouts.

You have to do your own evaluation and tests as there are a lot of variables such as: water hardness, type of stain, length of stain on substrate, climate, etc..

[ParadiseProWash 14]

Paul I just want to point out one thing the Gutter Shock already has Sodium Hydroxide in it were as the Gutter Zap and 675 does not.:D

[Mike Cappa 14]

am I allowed to say what I use? I don't want to push a product that beth doesn't sell. I will wait to hear from Beth.

[ParadiseProWash 14]

I didnt realize that Beth sold a gutter cleaner if that is the case then I should not have brought up anything!!!!!!:whoops:

[Paul B. 523]

Morgan,

I think you have been mis-informed about Gutter Zap - it DOES contain Sodium Hydroxide (check the MSDS).

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Guys, keep chatting. You're fine. Blatant advertising is where I draw the line. I don't have a problem with naming a product and discussing how to use it.

Beth;)

[Outlaw 14]

Right on the bottle under "active ingredients" it says Sodium Hydroxide, but keep going, this thread has made me think about more than application methods.

Gav

[ParadiseProWash 14]

I went and looked and you guys are right it is already in the Zap my mistake.:D

[Paul B. 523]

I would like to add that Sodium Hydroxide based products are not the only products that will remove black streaks from gutters.

What causes the black streaks on the gutters?

It's an oil based run-off from asphalt shingles.

So you have to find products that have components which will break down oil and grease based stains without (in the case of gutters) stripping off the paint. In laymen terms, we would be looking for a degreaser.

[One Tough Pressure 580]

I have used a sodium metasilicate with light brushing and it worked out great.

[Aplus 525]

What causes the black streaks on the gutters? It's an oil based run-off from asphalt shingles.?

Paul, that's what I always thought too. However, there seems to also be a theory about moving water building up a static charge on the gutter which attracts dirt, etc. Any thoughts on this?

I've never really bought into that theory. I don't really know 100% for sure what causes the stains, but I know I can remove them. As you mention, degreasers or similar products are what works to remove the stains.

Also, you make a good case for looking at the Allbright, it is certainly priced right.

I'm still not going to xjet gutter cleaner, but it will save a good amount of $$ on each house wash.

[ron p 500]

back to the orig question.

if your going to brush why are you useing a pump-up?

Why not use a sponge head mop and a bucket?

[Outlaw 14]

Ron on high 2nd story houses I do just that, but it does tend to be somewhat messy, on houses where its low enough, I simply walk along spraying the gutter, then go back to the beginning and walk along brushing ( it doesn't take much) and then I rinse it all down, it actually doesn't take as long as it sounds and rather than a sponge I use a vehicle brush.

Gav

[Paul B. 523]

Tony,

I've read the static theory also, but it's a bit hard to buy because you are always seeing streaks running down from top to bottom never side to side and if it was only dirt, you wouldn't need a strong degreaser to remove it. Also static is normally generated in dry conditions not when it's wet.

My theory and I'm sticking to it!

[Paul B. 523]

X-Jetting is nice because it acts like a foamer.

In any case, the Sodium Hydroxide content in most of the gutter cleaning chemicals is relatively low - below 1%.

Remember how we talked about water hardness effecting cleaning ability of the same solution from area to area? Here's a tid bit for you:

Sodium Metasilicate is not a cleaning agent by itself. It is a VERY strong base. The pH of a 1% aqueous solution is about 13. It's a strong base that reacts violently with acids. A major use is as a builder (a material that enhances or maintains the cleaning efficiency of a surfactant, mainly by inactivating water hardness) in soaps and detergents. It may be used as part of a component in a chemical degreaser, where it would react with fatty acids (animal grease) to form a soap, which is then rinsed away.

[James 625]

When a gutter is made on site a lubricant is used. After a few rain storms its pushed over the side attracting dirt and run off from the roof.

[Aplus 525]

James,

How much lubricant can there be? I've washed gutters yearly, for several years, and the black streaks still come back. Pauls' theory is more sound.

Gav,

I do gutters the same way you describe.... use a pump up for single story, and a 10" truck brush on an extension pole for uppers.

Very fast, a typical 50 foot run is done in about 5-6 minutes.

I've never used the Gutter Shock, but my gut feeling is that it will perform similar to Gutter Zap. Since the two are similarly priced, it might make sense to buy the one that allows for the cheapest shipping. The shipping distance on commercial carrier is a factor in the price, so look at which one is closest to you.

I've added a little HD-80 to boost my mix on occasion, with satisfactory results.