Rick Warren & Obama

[Jeff 232]

I'm uaually at odds with the religous right when it comes to a lot of things, politics, social issues etc. But I've seen some interviews and stories about the Minister Rick Warren. I saw him recently on 60 minutes. He has a huge ministry and I've heard he's going to be or is the next Billy Grahman.

I like this guy. He believes in talking and LISTENING to all sides, even if it upsets the religous right. I like how he says & believes your not always going to agree with everybody all the time, but he also beleives that all have to work towards common ground to unite. Sounds like a very interesting man and I like his mission on uniting

I like how he wont start a TV ministry, he doesnt want or need to a celebrity. I like how as being part of the right he doesnt always agree or do what the right thinks is right. He's gone to countries that we consider our enemy's and trys dialog. I'd like to see him more

Barak Obama,

I've been listening to him for some time also and I enjoy a lot of his views and the way he trys to unite also. He isnt tied to one democratic group and he isnt all Washington. He excites people with his uplifting talk & speaches. He's not out to just bash the other sides views. I feel he truely listens

These 2 men I find might be a change we need, two different sides willing to work with and listen to the other side

I say put them as running partners for Prez & Vice Prez and lets start to unite all of us. There is common ground to be found.

Warren I dont think would run now, but maybe

Just wishing & talking out loud.

[bigchaz 157]

I just don't think that in the case of obama, someone who can talk well and makes cute little emotional speeches should qualify him for president

[Celeste 341]

I just don't think that in the case of obama, someone who can talk well and makes cute little emotional speeches should qualify him for president

Isn't that how most all of them get into office?

Celeste

[Jeff 232]

I just don't think that in the case of obama, someone who can talk well and makes cute little emotional speeches should qualify him for president

Like Obama , Abe Lincoln was a 2nd year senator, with little experience, but he did some great speaches and ended up in history as a great Prez. Im looking for people to run that will truely unite. I like he's younger than the old school thats in control of the Rep & Dems now.

He may be a lot more than you think,

He's a pretty smart man and he's lived in asia/Indonesia for many years. That part of the world is very important.

I dont know if America will hire a black man yet

[John T 744]

Obama seems like the real deal but with his very little experience I think thats going to go against him for this election. He should IMHO sit this one out and gain the experience and then 4-8 yrs from now he should run. If he loses this time that could hurt him for the next time when he's much more qualified.

What a bad break for the Dems with that senator out west having that crippling life threatening stroke. It looks as though the Republican Govenor there is going to replace him with another rebulican senator which now makes the house 50/50 which puts VP Cheney as the tie breaker.

You Dems can't catch a break. I like to win but not at a cost like that.

On the Republican side John Mcain and my boy Rudy are looking good. 08 is going to be an iteresting year. If I was a betting man I would have to think that the Dems should win but my heart is still with my own Party.

[Deck Guy 14]

Being a good speaker may not qualify him, but it would be a refreshing change. I love to hear great oration. Watching the tapes of JFK, MLK, and a handfull of others have moved me to tears at times. Those types of powerful words can inspire people to act, and change can occur as a result. We all have heard of motivational speakers. When we have a leader unable to move people due to his lack of communication skills, it's a loss to our country.

I wish I was wrong, but there are still too many bigots, even in the Democratic party, to elect a black man. I hear racist BS all the time around here, and I'm certain many of you do as well. I'm not trying to start anything, but having travelled the south extensively, I have been shocked by it at times. Bottom line, I just don't see it as a possibility.

[HotShot 34]

Ya know I'm suppose to be a racist bigot being that I'm a conservative Christian right wing extremist...but I'd prolly vote for Condi Rice in a heartbeat :eek: Character is far more important to me than beinga slickster with words. JFK was hardly a model of character...MLK was also a known adulterer....Bill Clinton...well, I don't even have to go there.

As far as Rick Warren goes...the man is a false teacher!!! Ecumenism is NOT a good thing in the Bible. Let's take Jesus for example on how he brought people together: I am the way the truth and the life: No man cometh to the Father but by me (John 14:6)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matt 23:33)

Rick Warren is a false teacher!!!!

As far as Obama, Osama Hussein bin Laden goes. He is a full fledged liberal left wing democrat. He is all for abortion, and the fact that Rick Warren would have him in his [so called] church is a disgrace and he should be ashamed of himself. Oh yeah, did I mention that Rick Warren is a liar? ... All liars will have their part in the lake of fire....(Rev. 21:8)

Listen to this if you have about 20 minutes or so...

[Deck Guy 14]

... All liars will have their part in the lake of fire....(Rev. 21:8)

"Read my lips...no new taxes!!" George H. W. Bush

Watch out Georgie Boy!!!!

[HotShot 34]

Yes he had better watch out. So should you, me and everybody else who is reading this. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Thanks for the opportunity to share the gospel Larry :)

[HotShot 34]

by the way...that was another quote from the not so "Unite us All" Jesus....Except a man be born again....John 3:3

[Jeff 232]

Ya know I'm suppose to be a racist bigot being that I'm a conservative Christian right wing extremist...but I'd prolly vote for Condi Rice in a heartbeat :eek: Character is far more important to me than beinga slickster with words. JFK was hardly a model of character...MLK was also a known adulterer....Bill Clinton...well, I don't even have to go there.

As far as Rick Warren goes...the man is a false teacher!!! Ecumenism is NOT a good thing in the Bible. Let's take Jesus for example on how he brought people together: I am the way the truth and the life: No man cometh to the Father but by me (John 14:6)

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matt 23:33)

Rick Warren is a false teacher!!!!

As far as Obama, Osama Hussein bin Laden goes. He is a full fledged liberal left wing democrat. He is all for abortion, and the fact that Rick Warren would have him in his [so called] church is a disgrace and he should be ashamed of himself. Oh yeah, did I mention that Rick Warren is a liar? ... All liars will have their part in the lake of fire....(Rev. 21:8)

Listen to this if you have about 20 minutes or so...

Anthony, I hope you dont take offense, but its people like you that scare many, NO tolarance at all. Everybody should burn in hell if they dont subscribe to your way of interpeting the bible. Theres another group somewhat like that and they are the extreme muslims. They think they're right too

I love God and he's probably the same God you love, But I dont believe that God or Jesus is extreme as you think, Im sure they are more tolerant than you give them credit

Condi Rice....She's a lesbian..........................I dont really know if she is, but Anthony if she was, which she could be, would you still vote for her. **** Chenney supports his lesbian daughter, so is he doomed also? There are no perfect people in this world. So Rick Warren who wants to unite where he can is now a piece of crap too in your eyes. Its a shame your so one way and intolerant

Obama Hussien Barak, so what he has a name like that, thats just funny that you right wingers would even bring that up. I know a lot of Anthonys that were mobsters, so are you in the California Mob. Is the name of your company a front for a hitman group, see what Im saying its just ridiculous

I think some of your extreme views someday God will tell you, you were wrong and you should love instead of hate and try to put people down

Rick Warren and the Millions who follow and like him are a disgrace? Why because he wants to bring people together instead of dividing them.

I hope someday you see the light and take people for what they are

Anthony, I have always been far from perfect I know, but i love people in general, I may spew hate about Bush, but If he was a little more open, I 'd give him a break. But hell you wont even give JFK a break

What if your minister was found out to be seeing gay prostitute and doing Meth like that other one was, does that make you & him doomed because you listen ed to him

Maybe God gave us brains to do things, Maybe he gave doctors the brains that give abortions or scientist that are doing stem cell research. Maybe his plans to have wars to not over populate the world. Maybe it was his plan to have different religions so we would be a diverse world

I try to be more tolerant, I think you should be too along with the rest of this country we all should unite or we will bring the end to all of us quicker

OK I think I said enough. I still like Obama & Warren, at least they try to unite

JL

[StainlessDeal 16]

• • --Their foot shall slide in due time.--
    • • Deuteronomy 32:35

In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving Israelites, who were God's visible people, and who lived under the means of grace; but who, notwithstanding all God's wonderful works towards them, remained (as vers 28.) void of counsel, having no understanding in them. Under all the cultivations of heaven, they brought forth bitter and poisonous fruit; as in the two verses next preceding the text. -- The expression I have chosen for my text, their foot shall slide in due time, seems to imply the following things, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Israelites were exposed.

1. That they were always exposed to destruction; as one that stands or walks in slippery places is always exposed to fall. This is implied in the manner of their destruction coming upon them, being represented by their foot sliding. The same is expressed, Psalm 72:18. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction."
   
2. It implies, that they were always exposed to sudden unexpected destruction. As he that walks in slippery places is every moment liable to fall, he cannot foresee one moment whether he shall stand or fall the next; and when he does fall, he falls at once without warning: Which is also expressed in Psalm 73:18,19. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment!"
   
3. Another thing implied is, that they are liable to fall of themselves, without being thrown down by the hand of another; as he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down.
   
4. That the reason why they are not fallen already and do not fall now is only that God's appointed time is not come. For it is said, that when that due time, or appointed time comes, their foot shall slide. Then they shall be left to fall, as they are inclined by their own weight. God will not hold them up in these slippery places any longer, but will let them go; and then, at that very instant, they shall fall into destruction; as he that stands on such slippery declining ground, on the edge of a pit, he cannot stand alone, when he is let go he immediately falls and is lost.

The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this. -- "There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." -- By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment. -- The truth of this observation may appear by the following considerations.

1. There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men's hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands. -- He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defence from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God's enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?
   
2. They deserve to be cast into hell; so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God's using his power at any moment to destroy them. Yea, on the contrary, justice calls aloud for an infinite punishment of their sins. Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, "Cut it down, why cumbereth it the ground?" Luke 13:7. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God's mere will, that holds it back.
   
3. They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. They do not only justly deserve to be cast down thither, but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John 3:18. "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is, John 8:23. "Ye are from beneath:" And thither he is bound; it is the place that justice, and God's word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assign to him.
   
4. They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.
   So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.
   
5. The devil stands ready to fall upon them, and seize them as his own, at what moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their souls in his possession, and under his dominion. The scripture represents them as his goods, Luke 11:12. The devils watch them; they are ever by them at their right hand; they stand waiting for them, like greedy hungry lions that see their prey, and expect to have it, but are for the present kept back. If God should withdraw his hand, by which they are restrained, they would in one moment fly upon their poor souls. The old serpent is gaping for them; hell opens its mouth wide to receive them; and if God should permit it, they would be hastily swallowed up and lost.
   
6. There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell fire, if it were not for God's restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men, a foundation for the torments of hell. There are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell fire. These principles are active and powerful, exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in scripture compared to the troubled sea, Isa. 57:20. For the present, God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further;" but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all before it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God's restraints, whereas if it were let loose, it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone.
   
7. It is no security to wicked men for one moment, that there are no visible means of death at hand. It is no security to a natural man, that he is now in health, and that he does not see which way he should now immediately go out of the world by any accident, and that there is no visible danger in any respect in his circumstances. The manifold and continual experience of the world in all ages, shows this is no evidence, that a man is not on the very brink of eternity, and that the next step will not be into another world. The unseen, unthought-of ways and means of persons going suddenly out of the world are innumerable and inconceivable. Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they will not bear their weight, and these places are not seen. The arrows of death fly unseen at noon-day; the sharpest sight cannot discern them. God has so many different unsearchable ways of taking wicked men out of the world and sending them to hell, that there is nothing to make it appear, that God had need to be at the expense of a miracle, or go out of the ordinary course of his providence, to destroy any wicked man, at any moment. All the means that there are of sinners going out of the world, are so in God's hands, and so universally and absolutely subject to his power and determination, that it does not depend at all the less on the mere will of God, whether sinners shall at any moment go to hell, than if means were never made use of, or at all concerned in the case.
   
8. Natural men's prudence and care to preserve their own lives, or the care of others to preserve them, do not secure them a moment. To this, divine providence and universal experience do also bear testimony. There is this clear evidence that men's own wisdom is no security to them from death; that if it were otherwise we should see some difference between the wise and politic men of the world, and others, with regard to their liableness to early and unexpected death: but how is it in fact? Eccles. 2:16. "How dieth the wise man? even as the fool."
   
9. All wicked men's pains and contrivance which they use to escape hell, while they continue to reject Christ, and so remain wicked men, do not secure them from hell one moment. Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail. They hear indeed that there are but few saved, and that the greater part of men that have died heretofore are gone to hell; but each one imagines that he lays out matters better for his own escape than others have done. He does not intend to come to that place of torment; he says within himself, that he intends to take effectual care, and to order matters so for himself as not to fail.
   But the foolish children of men miserably delude themselves in their own schemes, and in confidence in their own strength and wisdom; they trust to nothing but a shadow. The greater part of those who heretofore have lived under the same means of grace, and are now dead, are undoubtedly gone to hell; and it was not because they were not as wise as those who are now alive: it was not because they did not lay out matters as well for themselves to secure their own escape. If we could speak with them, and inquire of them, one by one, whether they expected, when alive, and when they used to hear about hell, ever to be the subjects of misery: we doubtless, should hear one and another reply, "No, I never intended to come here: I had laid out matters otherwise in my mind; I thought I should contrive well for myself -- I thought my scheme good. I intended to take effectual care; but it came upon me unexpected; I did not look for it at that time, and in that manner; it came as a thief -- Death outwitted me: God's wrath was too quick for me. Oh, my cursed foolishness! I was flattering myself, and pleasing myself with vain dreams of what I would do hereafter; and when I was saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction came upon me."
   
10. God has laid himself under no obligation, by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant.

So that, whatever some have imagined and pretended about promises made to natural men's earnest seeking and knocking, it is plain and manifest, that whatever pains a natural man takes in religion, whatever prayers he makes, till he believes in Christ, God is under no manner of obligation to keep him a moment from eternal destruction.

So that, thus it is that natural men are held in the hand of God, over the pit of hell; they have deserved the fiery pit, and are already sentenced to it; and God is dreadfully provoked, his anger is as great towards them as to those that are actually suffering the executions of the fierceness of his wrath in hell, and they have done nothing in the least to appease or abate that anger, neither is God in the least bound by any promise to hold them up one moment; the devil is waiting for them, hell is gaping for them, the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out: and they have no interest in any Mediator, there are no means within reach that can be any security to them. In short, they have no refuge, nothing to take hold of; all that preserves them every moment is the mere arbitrary will, and uncovenanted, unobliged forbearance of an incensed God. Application

The use of this awful subject may be for awakening unconverted persons in this congregation. This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ. -- That world of misery, that take of burning brimstone, is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of; there is nothing between you and hell but the air; it is only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.

You probably are not sensible of this; you find you are kept out of hell, but do not see the hand of God in it; but look at other things, as the good state of your bodily constitution, your care of your own life, and the means you use for your own preservation. But indeed these things are nothing; if God should withdraw his hand, they would avail no more to keep you from falling, than the thin air to hold up a person that is suspended in it.

Your wickedness makes you as it were heavy as lead, and to tend downwards with great weight and pressure towards hell; and if God should let you go, you would immediately sink and swiftly descend and plunge into the bottomless gulf, and your healthy constitution, and your own care and prudence, and best contrivance, and all your righteousness, would have no more influence to uphold you and keep you out of hell, than a spider's web would have to stop a falling rock. Were it not for the sovereign pleasure of God, the earth would not bear you one moment; for you are a burden to it; the creation groans with you; the creature is made subject to the bondage of your corruption, not willingly; the sun does not willingly shine upon you to give you light to serve sin and Satan; the earth does not willingly yield her increase to satisfy your lusts; nor is it willingly a stage for your wickedness to be acted upon; the air does not willingly serve you for breath to maintain the flame of life in your vitals, while you spend your life in the service of God's enemies. God's creatures are good, and were made for men to serve God with, and do not willingly subserve to any other purpose, and groan when they are abused to purposes so directly contrary to their nature and end. And the world would spew you out, were it not for the sovereign hand of him who hath subjected it in hope. There are the black clouds of God's wrath now hanging directly over your heads, full of the dreadful storm, and big with thunder; and were it not for the restraining hand of God, it would immediately burst forth upon you. The sovereign pleasure of God, for the present, stays his rough wind; otherwise it would come with fury, and your destruction would come like a whirlwind, and you would be like the chaff on the summer threshing floor.

The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the mean time is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If God should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood. Thus all you that never passed under a great change of heart, by the mighty power of the Spirit of God upon your souls; all you that were never born again, and made new creatures, and raised from being dead in sin, to a state of new, and before altogether unexperienced light and life, are in the hands of an angry God. However you may have reformed your life in many things, and may have had religious affections, and may keep up a form of religion in your families and closets, and in the house of God, it is nothing but his mere pleasure that keeps you from being this moment swallowed up in everlasting destruction. However unconvinced you may now be of the truth of what you hear, by and by you will be fully convinced of it. Those that are gone from being in the like circumstances with you, see that it was so with them; for destruction came suddenly upon most of them; when they expected nothing of it, and while they were saying, Peace and safety: now they see, that those things on which they depended for peace and safety, were nothing but thin air and empty shadows.

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell. You hang by a slender thread, with the flames of divine wrath flashing about it, and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder; and you have no interest in any Mediator, and nothing to lay hold of to save yourself, nothing to keep off the flames of wrath, nothing of your own, nothing that you ever have done, nothing that you can do, to induce God to spare you one moment. -- And consider here more particularly,

1. Whose wrath it is: it is the wrath of the infinite God. If it were only the wrath of man, though it were of the most potent prince, it would be comparatively little to be regarded. The wrath of kings is very much dreaded, especially of absolute monarchs, who have the possessions and lives of their subjects wholly in their power, to be disposed of at their mere will. Prov. 20:2. "The fear of a king is as the roaring of a lion: Whoso provoketh him to anger, sinneth against his own soul." The subject that very much enrages an arbitrary prince, is liable to suffer the most extreme torments that human art can invent, or human power can inflict. But the greatest earthly potentates in their greatest majesty and strength, and when clothed in their greatest terrors, are but feeble, despicable worms of the dust, in comparison of the great and almighty Creator and King of heaven and earth. It is but little that they can do, when most enraged, and when they have exerted the utmost of their fury. All the kings of the earth, before God, are as grasshoppers; they are nothing, and less than nothing: both their love and their hatred is to be despised. The wrath of the great King of kings, is as much more terrible than theirs, as his majesty is greater. Luke 12:4,5. "And I say unto you, my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that, have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: fear him, which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell: yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
   
2. It is the fierceness of his wrath that you are exposed to. We often read of the fury of God; as in Isa. 59:18. "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay fury to his adversaries." So Isa. 66:15. "For behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." And in many other places. So, Rev. 19:15, we read of "the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." The words are exceeding terrible. If it had only been said, "the wrath of God," the words would have implied that which is infinitely dreadful: but it is "the fierceness and wrath of God." The fury of God! the fierceness of Jehovah! Oh, how dreadful that must be! Who can utter or conceive what such expressions carry in them! But it is also "the fierceness and wrath of almighty God." As though there would be a very great manifestation of his almighty power in what the fierceness of his wrath should inflict, as though omnipotence should be as it were enraged, and exerted, as men are wont to exert their strength in the fierceness of their wrath. Oh! then, what will be the consequence! What will become of the poor worms that shall suffer it! Whose hands can be strong? And whose heart can endure? To what a dreadful, inexpressible, inconceivable depth of misery must the poor creature be sunk who shall be the subject of this!
   Consider this, you that are here present, that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity. When God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom; he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare, nor be at all careful lest you should suffer too much in any other sense, than only that you shall not suffer beyond what strict justice requires. Nothing shall be withheld, because it is so hard for you to bear. Ezek. 8:18. "Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity; and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet I will not hear them." Now God stands ready to pity you; this is a day of mercy; you may cry now with some encouragement of obtaining mercy. But when once the day of mercy is past, your most lamentable and dolorous cries and shrieks will be in vain; you will be wholly lost and thrown away of God, as to any regard to your welfare. God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock," Prov. 1:25,26,&c.
   How awful are those words, Isa. 63:3, which are the words of the great God. "I will tread them in mine anger, and will trample them in my fury, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." It is perhaps impossible to conceive of words that carry in them greater manifestations of these three things, viz. contempt, and hatred, and fierceness of indignation. If you cry to God to pity you, he will be so far from pitying you in your doleful case, or showing you the least regard or favour, that instead of that, he will only tread you under foot. And though he will know that you cannot bear the weight of omnipotence treading upon you, yet he will not regard that, but he will crush you under his feet without mercy; he will crush out your blood, and make it fly, and it shall be sprinkled on his garments, so as to stain all his raiment. He will not only hate you, but he will have you in the utmost contempt: no place shall be thought fit for you, but under his feet to be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
   
3. The misery you are exposed to is that which God will inflict to that end, that he might show what that wrath of Jehovah is. God hath had it on his heart to show to angels and men, both how excellent his love is, and also how terrible his wrath is. Sometimes earthly kings have a mind to show how terrible their wrath is, by the extreme punishments they would execute on those that would provoke them. Nebuchadnezzar, that mighty and haughty monarch of the Chaldean empire, was willing to show his wrath when enraged with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; and accordingly gave orders that the burning fiery furnace should be heated seven times hotter than it was before; doubtless, it was raised to the utmost degree of fierceness that human art could raise it. But the great God is also willing to show his wrath, and magnify his awful majesty and mighty power in the extreme sufferings of his enemies. Rom. 9:22. "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?" And seeing this is his design, and what he has determined, even to show how terrible the unrestrained wrath, the fury and fierceness of Jehovah is, he will do it to effect. There will be something accomplished and brought to pass that will be dreadful with a witness. When the great and angry God hath risen up and executed his awful vengeance on the poor sinner, and the wretch is actually suffering the infinite weight and power of his indignation, then will God call upon the whole universe to behold that awful majesty and mighty power that is to be seen in it. Isa. 33:12-14. "And the people shall be as the burnings of lime, as thorns cut up shall they be burnt in the fire. Hear ye that are far off, what I have done; and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites," &c.
   Thus it will be with you that are in an unconverted state, if you continue in it; the infinite might, and majesty, and terribleness of the omnipotent God shall be magnified upon you, in the ineffable strength of your torments. You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty. Isa. 66:23,24. "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
   
4. It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?"

How dreadful is the state of those that are daily and hourly in the danger of this great wrath and infinite misery! But this is the dismal case of every soul in this congregation that has not been born again, however moral and strict, sober and religious, they may otherwise be. Oh that you would consider it, whether you be young or old! There is reason to think, that there are many in this congregation now hearing this discourse, that will actually be the subjects of this very misery to all eternity. We know not who they are, or in what seats they sit, or what thoughts they now have. It may be they are now at ease, and hear all these things without much disturbance, and are now flattering themselves that they are not the persons, promising themselves that they shall escape. If we knew that there was one person, and but one, in the whole congregation, that was to be the subject of this misery, what an awful thing would it be to think of! If we knew who it was, what an awful sight would it be to see such a person! How might all the rest of the congregation lift up a lamentable and bitter cry over him! But, alas! instead of one, how many is it likely will remember this discourse in hell? And it would be a wonder, if some that are now present should not be in hell in a very short time, even before this year is out. And it would be no wonder if some persons, that now sit here, in some seats of this meeting-house, in health, quiet and secure, should be there before tomorrow morning. Those of you that finally continue in a natural condition, that shall keep out of hell longest will be there in a little time! your damnation does not slumber; it will come swiftly, and, in all probability, very suddenly upon many of you. You have reason to wonder that you are not already in hell. It is doubtless the case of some whom you have seen and known, that never deserved hell more than you, and that heretofore appeared as likely to have been now alive as you. Their case is past all hope; they are crying in extreme misery and perfect despair; but here you are in the land of the living and in the house of God, and have an opportunity to obtain salvation. What would not those poor damned hopeless souls give for one day's opportunity such as you now enjoy!

And now you have an extraordinary opportunity, a day wherein Christ has thrown the door of mercy wide open, and stands in calling and crying with a loud voice to poor sinners; a day wherein many are flocking to him, and pressing into the kingdom of God. Many are daily coming from the east, west, north and south; many that were very lately in the same miserable condition that you are in, are now in a happy state, with their hearts filled with love to him who has loved them, and washed them from their sins in his own blood, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. How awful is it to be left behind at such a day! To see so many others feasting, while you are pining and perishing! To see so many rejoicing and singing for joy of heart, while you have cause to mourn for sorrow of heart, and howl for vexation of spirit! How can you rest one moment in such a condition? Are not your souls as precious as the souls of the people at Suffield, where they are flocking from day to day to Christ?

Are there not many here who have lived long in the world, and are not to this day born again? and so are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and have done nothing ever since they have lived, but treasure up wrath against the day of wrath? Oh, sirs, your case, in an especial manner, is extremely dangerous. Your guilt and hardness of heart is extremely great. Do you not see how generality persons of your years are passed over and left, in the present remarkable and wonderful dispensation of God's mercy? You had need to consider yourselves, and awake thoroughly out of sleep. You cannot bear the fierceness and wrath of the infinite God. -- And you, young men, and young women, will you neglect this precious season which you now enjoy, when so many others of your age are renouncing all youthful vanities, and flocking to Christ? You especially have now an extraordinary opportunity; but if you neglect it, it will soon be with you as with those persons who spent all the precious days of youth in sin, and are now come to such a dreadful pass in blindness and hardness. -- And you, children, who are unconverted, do not you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God, who is now angry with you every day and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?

And let every one that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God's word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, a day of such great favour to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others. Men's hearts harden, and their guilt increases apace at such a day as this, if they neglect their souls; and never was there so great danger of such persons being given up to hardness of heart and blindness of mind. God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the greater part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on the great out-pouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles' days; the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you, you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God's Spirit, and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the axe is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree which brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down and cast into the fire. Therefore, let every one that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over a great part of this congregation. Let every one fly out of Sodom: "Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed."

[Jon 533]

When are y'all gonna learn that the only HONEST politician is a dead one.

All living ones LIE with a smile and so many people believe them too.

Obama, Hillary, and a dozen or so others, mostly Dems are out to remove the little freedom left as Americans, all have forgotten how this country was won.

I am not saying the Reps are any better, heck if I had my way there would be NO polictical parties and you would not be forced to register as a DEM or REP.

[Deck Guy 14]

Obama, Hillary, and a dozen or so others, mostly Dems are out to remove the little freedom left as Americans, all have forgotten how this country was won.

Forgot about that little thing called "The Patriot Act," Jon??

"The Constitution is a shield, not a sword."

[James 625]

I think the words fanatic, zealot, and extremist come to mind. I had to read it a couple of times ??

[HotShot 34]

Anthony, I hope you dont take offense, but its people like you that scare many, NO tolarance at all.

Jeff...no offence taken whatsoever...that is by far the biggest compliment to me or somebody like me who believes the Bible and it's teachings. I know that I'm on the right track :)

I love God and he's probably the same God you love, But I dont believe that God or Jesus is extreme as you think, Im sure they are more tolerant than you give them credit

Jeff...God is a holy God and has NO tolerance for sin whatsoever man...NONE..He is justified in sending us all to hell, but because of his mercy he saves some!!! That's why he sent his son...to save us from our sin so that if we choose to REPENT AND TRUST in him we can be saved. Not because we are good people, but because of his grace and his love for us.

Condi Rice....She's a lesbian..........................I dont really know if she is, but Anthony if she was, which she could be, would you still vote for her.

No, I would not...like I said character is far more important to me than one's political leanings or how well they speak or whatever. I could not vote for someone continually living in sin like that.

Obama Hussien Barak, so what he has a name like that, thats just funny that you right wingers would even bring that up. I know a lot of Anthonys that were mobsters, so are you in the California Mob. Is the name of your company a front for a hitman group, see what Im saying its just ridiculous

just making a joke homie :) However, I do think that the Muslim religion is America's number 1 enemy...

I think some of your extreme views someday God will tell you, you were wrong and you should love instead of hate and try to put people down

Jeff, if you were heading for a cliff at 90 miles per hour and I was talking to you on the phone giving you directions would I be loving or hating if I told you that the road ends up ahead and you're going to fall to your death if you don't stop? Even though you are having so much fun driving that fast and the road looks great right now.... Man, I don't come on here and share this stuff because I hate people...it's the absolute opposite man. "Because he hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained...." Dude, a reckoning is coming and we all will answer for our crimes against God (breaking his holy laws) you can either be covered by the blood of Christ and have your sins forgivin, or you will be sent to a place called hell. I would not be loving if I was tolerant with sin Jeff...I hope you understand that bro. I'm not saying that we should kill homosexuals, or muslims or anything like that...the Bible tells us what to do for our enemies and it's quite different that what the Koran teaches.

Rick Warren and the Millions who follow and like him are a disgrace?

I don't remember saying the people that follow him and if I did, I take that back...Rick Warren is a disgrace becuase he knows (supposedly) the word of God and he chooses to teach another gospel. A false gospel.

I hope someday you see the light and take people for what they are

Oh man, I saw myself for what I was years ago...and that was a liar, a theif, an adulterer, a blasphemer and even a murderer. No I've never physically killed any person and no I've never physically cheated on my wife but Jesus says that "whoever should look at a woman with lust in his heart has commited adultery with her"..and "Whosever hates his brother" is seen as murder in Gods eyes. God is holy!!!

What if your minister was found out to be seeing gay prostitute and doing Meth like that other one was, does that make you & him doomed because you listen ed to him

That's a very deep theoligical question and I can't say that I know the answer 100%. The Bible does talk about people setting under false teaching, but I truly haven't searched out the scriptures enough to give you an exact answer man. I do know though, that that minister will answer for his sins and his punishment is worse according to the Bible.

Maybe God gave us brains to do things, Maybe he gave doctors the brains that give abortions or scientist that are doing stem cell research. Maybe his plans to have wars to not over populate the world. Maybe it was his plan to have different religions so we would be a diverse world

In God's soveignty he knew this would happen, but he never intended for Earth to be like this. He created it perfect and man chose death instead of life. Genesis 1:31 "And God saw everything that he had made and behold it was very good...." we messed it up, not God. He has been judging the world for the last 6000 years because He is NONTOLERANT of sin.

I try to be more tolerant, I think you should be too along with the rest of this country we all should unite or we will bring the end to all of us quicker

...it's the other way around bro...the more sin, the more wrath of God will fall upon us.

[Jeff 232]

Jeff...no offence taken whatsoever...that is by far the biggest compliment to me or somebody like me who believes the Bible and it's teachings. I know that I'm on the right track :)

Jeff...God is a holy God and has NO tolerance for sin whatsoever man...NONE..He is justified in sending us all to hell, but because of his mercy he saves some!!! That's why he sent his son...to save us from our sin so that if we choose to REPENT AND TRUST in him we can be saved. Not because we are good people, but because of his grace and his love for us.

No, I would not...like I said character is far more important to me than one's political leanings or how well they speak or whatever. I could not vote for someone continually living in sin like that.

just making a joke homie :) However, I do think that the Muslim religion is America's number 1 enemy...

Jeff, if you were heading for a cliff at 90 miles per hour and I was talking to you on the phone giving you directions would I be loving or hating if I told you that the road ends up ahead and you're going to fall to your death if you don't stop? Even though you are having so much fun driving that fast and the road looks great right now.... Man, I don't come on here and share this stuff because I hate people...it's the absolute opposite man. "Because he hath appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained...." Dude, a reckoning is coming and we all will answer for our crimes against God (breaking his holy laws) you can either be covered by the blood of Christ and have your sins forgivin, or you will be sent to a place called hell. I would not be loving if I was tolerant with sin Jeff...I hope you understand that bro. I'm not saying that we should kill homosexuals, or muslims or anything like that...the Bible tells us what to do for our enemies and it's quite different that what the Koran teaches.

I don't remember saying the people that follow him and if I did, I take that back...Rick Warren is a disgrace becuase he knows (supposedly) the word of God and he chooses to teach another gospel. A false gospel.

Oh man, I saw myself for what I was years ago...and that was a liar, a theif, an adulterer, a blasphemer and even a murderer. No I've never physically killed any person and no I've never physically cheated on my wife but Jesus says that "whoever should look at a woman with lust in his heart has commited adultery with her"..and "Whosever hates his brother" is seen as murder in Gods eyes. God is holy!!!

That's a very deep theoligical question and I can't say that I know the answer 100%. The Bible does talk about people setting under false teaching, but I truly haven't searched out the scriptures enough to give you an exact answer man. I do know though, that that minister will answer for his sins and his punishment is worse according to the Bible.

In God's soveignty he knew this would happen, but he never intended for Earth to be like this. He created it perfect and man chose death instead of life. Genesis 1:31 "And God saw everything that he had made and behold it was very good...." we messed it up, not God. He has been judging the world for the last 6000 years because He is NONTOLERANT of sin.

...it's the other way around bro...the more sin, the more wrath of God will fall upon us.

Anthony, You're alright, your beliefs are yours and thats cool. Have a great one!!!

Merry Xmas

Jeff

[HotShot 34]

Merry Christmas to you too bro...hope you and your family have a great one..

[James 625]

There is know heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy!Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day,this hour, for no redeemer livith.

The book of Satan:IV 2

[HotShot 34]

that's great....and from a great source too :rolleyes:

[StainlessDeal 16]

If anybody took the time to read the long post I last posted in this thread, did it seem familiar?

It is a famous two hundred year old sermon preached in puritan New England.

It is notable because the author insists, and backs his claims with scripture, that God knows already who will and who won't go to heaven. Remember that God is omnicient and all powerful, so we are predestined by Him to our final disposition, regardless of the acts of our lives. No good deed can save us.

Because of this he says we should all tremble every day because we are "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God." He says that god abhors us as we abhor disgusting bugs, and that he can hardly stand not to throw us into the flames of hell, much as we might dispose of a cockroach in a fire.

When I hear inflexible, dogmatic Christians or Muslims justifying their particular brands of religion to others by selecting phrases from the bible as interpreted by some charismatic leader, I begin to worry.

Any of these people might be right, but I'll keep my religion between myself and my God, and will endeavor to keep the faith of my government leaders in mind while I vote. I don't want to be represented by those without faith, but it needn't be mine. I just wish it to be moral.

I'd like us all to go to heaven, but I don't believe that there are some rules that God has to follow that might send an otherwise good man to Hell for not worshipping just so. I'll bet that God will judge as He will, and that I'll be surprised by some of those judgements, since I don't know anything about anybody else's relations with Him. I just bet that God can do whatever He wishes, and that He acts in Love.

I'd posit that I can't be the judge of where anybody else will be going, and that I'm not worried about it. I'll tend to the log in my own eye for now.

Merry Christmas to all of you. May you have peace in your life, and rest everafter.

[John T 744]

If anybody took the time to read the long post I last posted in this thread, did it seem familiar?

It is a famous two hundred year old sermon preached in puritan New England.

It is notable because the author insists, and backs his claims with scripture, that God knows already who will and who won't go to heaven. Remember that God is omnicient and all powerful, so we are predestined by Him to our final disposition, regardless of the acts of our lives. No good deed can save us.

Because of this he says we should all tremble every day because we are "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God." He says that god abhors us as we abhor disgusting bugs, and that he can hardly stand not to throw us into the flames of hell, much as we might dispose of a cockroach in a fire.

When I hear inflexible, dogmatic Christians or Muslims justifying their particular brands of religion to others by selecting phrases from the bible as interpreted by some charismatic leader, I begin to worry.

Any of these people might be right, but I'll keep my religion between myself and my God, and will endeavor to keep the faith of my government leaders in mind while I vote. I don't want to be represented by those without faith, but it needn't be mine. I just wish it to be moral.

I'd like us all to go to heaven, but I don't believe that there are some rules that God has to follow that might send an otherwise good man to Hell for not worshipping just so. I'll bet that God will judge as He will, and that I'll be surprised by some of those judgements, since I don't know anything about anybody else's relations with Him. I just bet that God can do whatever He wishes, and that He acts in Love.

I'd posit that I can't be the judge of where anybody else will be going, and that I'm not worried about it. I'll tend to the log in my own eye for now.

Merry Christmas to all of you. May you have peace in your life, and rest everafter.

You can't go to hell if you are not a believer. Hell is for sinners of your religion. Oh yea Merry Christmas to you also and yes I am Catholic by birth and a Power washer by choice:)

[HotShot 34]

If anybody took the time to read the long post I last posted in this thread, did it seem familiar?

It is a famous two hundred year old sermon preached in puritan New England.

Was it Jonathan Edwards? Or Calvin? I read and listen to sermons by these great puritans like Edwards and my favorite is of course Charles Spurgeon :)

It is notable because the author insists, and backs his claims with scripture, that God knows already who will and who won't go to heaven. Remember that God is omnicient and all powerful, so we are predestined by Him to our final disposition, regardless of the acts of our lives. No good deed can save us.

You got that right, no good deed can save us, only Repenting and Trusting in Jesus can save us..

Any of these people might be right, but I'll keep my religion between myself and my God

How can you say this when the Bible directly commands ALL christians to "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel" ???

I'd like us all to go to heaven, but I don't believe that there are some rules that God has to follow that might send an otherwise good man to Hell for not worshipping just so.

The Ten Commandments are God's standard and that standard is perfection. You just said that "send an otherwise good man to hell".... God says that there are NONE good, but God Mark 10:18 If you think you're good take the Good person test!!!

Let me give a little analogy about what you said about predestined and God's foreknowledge. It doesn't mean that we don't still have freewill..let me explain:

How would you catch a criminal who is on the run? Well, you'd think about where he might go, then you'd try to be there to intercept him. Now, if you had perfect knowledge--if you knew everything-- you'd not only know where he is at any given moment, but where he'll be at any moment in the future. You'd know exactly what time he'd arrive at any point along his entire route.

Would you be able to catch a criminal if you knew the exact moves he was going to make? If you knew the things he was going to freely choose to do--and this is important--at any given point, would you be able to catch him? Sure you could.

If you know he's going down a particular road and will come around a particular corner at a particular time, you could place your men there so that when he takes the route he freely chooses (though known by you), your men would be right there to nab him. You're in control the entire time--you're sovereign. You're able to be in control because you know every move he's going to freely make. Therefore, your plan can be perfectly executed, even though he's making his free choices.

My point is, just because God knows who will be going to heaven and who won't, doesn't mean that we as Christians, set back and chill.... We don't know who is going and who isn't.

[HotShot 34]

You can't go to hell if you are not a believer. Hell is for sinners of your religion. Oh yea Merry Christmas to you also and yes I am Catholic by birth and a Power washer by choice:)

John...I don't believe in gravity, does that mean that if I step off of a 10 story building I wouldn't plumit to my death? After all, I can't see it, smell it, taste it, or hear it so it must not be true....

[John T 744]

John...I don't believe in gravity, does that mean that if I step off of a 10 story building I wouldn't plumit to my death? After all, I can't see it, smell it, taste it, or hear it so it must not be true....

Anthony- A building is a fixed object and Gravity is science so there's your answer..I just had this conversation with my sister inlaw again the other day..it comes down to you have to have BLIND faith. You must have so much faith that science will be overruled. I'll believe in more of what you say when my time here is about to end...Untill then put me in your prayers.

[Celeste 341]

John T.....funny to see you speaking of blind faith. It's almost hypocritical.

Celeste