Sealer Composition

[jnoden 15]

Since i have a fair amount of time on my hands until spring I figured i would post another question I have been curious about.

I always hear about the different types of oils that various sealer companies utilize in their stains. I also hear about the benefits of finely grounded transoxide pigments found in good stains. I never hear anything about the ingredient in a stain that actually seals moisture out. Is it the oil that repels moisture or is there something else? (speaking of oil based stains only). Does every company use the same ingredient/ chemical. Is it found more in some stains than others? If it is just the oil in the stain well than i guess water bourne stains use something else that generally last longer.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

Brilliant! Send me a sample, we'll apply for a patent then we can both be broke!

Sweet

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

I just walked away from the computer and then thought about how things can be misread. The joke was that you could come join me in the stain manufacturing business if you wanted to be broke like me.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

The wood may be completely protected but if it isn't pretty, it's no good.

Ain't that the truth. Appearance is primary for most customers. But good pigments do protect wood. At least here in the Northeast, western red cedar seems to be more damaged over time from UV than moisture.

I'll teach you how it's done if you would like to come work in production.

I'll pass on that offer.

The courts found Behr negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines.

Dan said:

If you take that same product and apply it to a deck that you prepared vs. a homeowner I bet it wouldn't turn out so bad. And companies settle all the time. Civil court ain't about who's right and who's wrong - just about finding an 'uncle' point both parties can agree on.

This was not a settlement about appearance. The cause was not enough mildewcide. The effect and huge settlement was due to rotted wood. Due to the unmildewcided linseed oil, the wood was impregnated and rotted from molds/mildew. Homeowner's had to replace full decks and wood siding.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This was not a settlement about appearance. The cause was not enough mildewcide. The effect and huge settlement was due to rotted wood. Due to the unmildewcided linseed oil, the wood was impregnated and rotted from molds/mildew. Homeowner's had to replace full decks and wood siding.

According to a deposition I had read, the cause of the problem was an incompatibility between a fungicide and mildewcide which caused them to cancel each other out. This created the environment for mildew to grow on unabated.

2003BCSC1252

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Whatever. The fact remains that thousands of board feet of wood rotted due to inadequate mildewcide / fungicide in the linseed oil based Behr's stains. The point is that linseed oil is a viable food source for molds and mildew that can cause real and destructive damage to exterior wood unless properly formulated.

Russell,

Another question if you are still on board in this discussion. Don't need the particulars but percentage / weight / volume wise, does more quantity of mildewcide and/or fungicide need to be mixed into ESI's linseed oil stains compared to ESI's paraffinic oil based stains?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

Whatever. The fact remains that thousands of board feet of wood rotted due to inadequate mildewcide / fungicide in the linseed oil based Behr's stains. The point is that linseed oil is a viable food source for molds and mildew that can cause real and destructive damage to exterior wood unless properly formulated.

Sorry Rick, didn't mean to offend. Just sharing what I have read.

I dread working on decks coated with the stuff. The wood never looks as clean and bright again and the stain goes dark again because of what is left in the wood. Strippers won't remove it if it was the first product installed on the wood. That part I think has to do with some other ingredient in their product of which I have no clue. I apply warm honey gold and get yuck honey brown.

Trying to sand the wood is a bugger to say the least (hardened wood) and if I don't get below 6mils the darkening will show through.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Certainly no offense taken. I am a bit ticked off at Russell for implying linseed oil is an innocuous ingredient in exterior wood stains. May be that if the formulations are correct, the problems with linseed oil can be mitigated. But as a base oil in and of itself, linseed oil is nothing but trouble.

I dread working on decks coated with the stuff. The wood never looks as clean and bright again and the stain goes dark again because of what is left in the wood. Strippers won't remove it if it was the first product installed on the wood. That part I think has to do with some other ingredient in their product of which I have no clue.

This I have not noticed. Have stripped many linseed oil CWF's, Wolman's, Behr's etc. without any perceived problem. Cabot's Aussie Oil is an exception, but I think the tung oil in the product may be the culprit.

Another exception is wood that was previously treated with one of the Behr's stains implicated in the lawsuit. Mildew stains are deep into the wood. Left a shurflo with F-18 overnight on the deck surface of a job and the wand leaked a cup or so of stripper. Came back the next morning and the deep mildew stains in that one spot were gone. Of course, it probably was about the worse thing possible for the wood, guess I'll find out this season when I do a maintenance. Hope there's not a hole in the wood!

I apply warm honey gold and get yuck honey brown.

Rod, could you please clarify? I'm not sure what "warm honey gold" is.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Another question if you are still on board in this discussion. Don't need the particulars but percentage / weight / volume wise, does more quantity of mildewcide and/or fungicide need to be mixed into ESI's linseed oil stains compared to ESI's paraffinic oil based stains?

Timber Oil (our paraffinic based stain) requires more mildewcide because it is a non drying stain. It doesn't dry or cure to lock in the ingredients. Just so you know, we go WAY above and beyond what is "required."

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

Certainly no offense taken. I am a bit ticked off at Russell for implying linseed oil is an innocuous ingredient in exterior wood stains. May be that if the formulations are correct, the problems with linseed oil can be mitigated. But as a base oil in and of itself, linseed oil is nothing but trouble.

This I have not noticed. Have stripped many linseed oil CWF's, Wolman's, Behr's etc. without any perceived problem. Cabot's Aussie Oil is an exception, but I think the tung oil in the product may be the culprit.

Another exception is wood that was previously treated with one of the Behr's stains implicated in the lawsuit. Mildew stains are deep into the wood. Left a shurflo with F-18 overnight on the deck surface of a job and the wand leaked a cup or so of stripper. Came back the next morning and the deep mildew stains in that one spot were gone. Of course, it probably was about the worse thing possible for the wood, guess I'll find out this season when I do a maintenance. Hope there's not a hole in the wood!

Rod, could you please clarify? I'm not sure what "warm honey gold" is.

Warm honey gold is our favorite out of the can Wood Tux color. ;)

Beth

[Jarrod 22]

I dread working on decks coated with the stuff. The wood never looks as clean and bright again and the stain goes dark again because of what is left in the wood. Strippers won't remove it if it was the first product installed on the wood. That part I think has to do with some other ingredient in their product of which I have no clue. I apply warm honey gold and get yuck honey brown.

Trying to sand the wood is a bugger to say the least (hardened wood) and if I don't get below 6mils the darkening will show through.

Rod!~

Rod, I have noticed that same problem with Olympic Maximum. After I strip it off and brighten the wood, the deck still looks kinda "drab."

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not addressing the physical properties of raw linseed oil. I am speaking to the effectiveness of formulations, or finished product.

I am a bit ticked off that much of the marketing hype would have you believe that a paraffinic oil = mildew free finish. When they make their case against other oils they talk about them being a "food" for mold and mildew in their raw form. I don't know of any high quality products that use raw linseed oil.

But as a base oil in and of itself, linseed oil is nothing but trouble.

Please qualify this statement. When you say "base oil in and of itself" what do you mean? Why do you believe this? What led you to that belief?

[plainpainter 217]

Russell - Rick isn't a painter, if he was - he'd know that linseed oil based primers and paints are a godsend. And being a painter having worked with many acrylic/latex based coatings - I know that mildew can eek out an existence on just about any surface. If alkyd modified drying oils were such a veritable feast for mildew - how come all the homes and fences that I have stained with Cabots solid oil stains - in light shades - have little to no mildew problem? If you remove the proteins from Raw linseed oil - there is no longer any food source - and I believe an alkyd modified oil whether it be cotton, safflower, rape, soy, or linseed - is about as yummy to mildew as Dow corning insulation. That was one of the motivating factors in creating alkyds I believe - so as not to be a food source - it's synthetic. Funny how many homes I walk into - and there is mildew growing on their ceilings because the house doesn't breathe - yet no mildew on all their trim, which was coated with low-lustre oil based paints. Ceiling paint is latex btw.

[PressurePros 249]

Excellent summation, Dan. :lgbow:

[YVPW 20]

This thread is very informative for anyone in the wood restoration business. It all makes sense, seems like everything comes together with what I've saw when working with stains on wood. Case in point, I have Natural Cedar Ready Seal on my deck right now, it was applied properly. Since it's not a drying oil everything seems to stick to it, it hasn't been on the deck but about 8 months, and is in full sun most of the day. It has a black haze over the whole thing with black streaks running down from the rails. The color is still there, although it needs a very good wash. I also have 3 boards of Wood Tux applied right next to it, not a spot of anything black on those boards. Since the Wood Tux cured stuff doesn't stick to it as bad. These posts just assure me even more how much of a great product Wood Tux and Wood Rich are. In my opinion I don't believe there's 2 better products on the market. I think what everyone has posted here proves it if you really read what has been said.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

You posted:

I dread working on decks coated with the stuff. The wood never looks as clean and bright again and the stain goes dark again because of what is left in the wood. Strippers won't remove it if it was the first product installed on the wood. That part I think has to do with some other ingredient in their product of which I have no clue. I apply warm honey gold and get yuck honey brown.

Trying to sand the wood is a bugger to say the least (hardened wood) and if I don't get below 6mils the darkening will show through.

Thank you Beth for clarifying "warm honey gold", what you are referring to is a stock color of Wood Tux Wet. Let me get this right. What you are saying is that when its time for a maintenance of WTW on wood that was originally treated with WTW, the color is "yuck honey brown"? And strippers (I'm assuming NaOH) won't remove the old pigment from the wood? Can't you at least strip off most of the old WTW, apply a new coat, and get to at least "close" to the designed "warm honey gold" color?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the only linseed oil based exterior wood stains I have seen with the above problem has been Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil. Reasoning indicates that the tung oil added into the product may be the problem. But even then, on hardwoods, most of the remaining color can be sanded or buffed out with a Makita.

Might be that tung oil or some other "permanent color" oil is included in WTW.

What do you mean by "hardened" wood? Is it so tough that sanding is difficult? Reason I ask is I've got exactly one WTW deck, and its due for a maintenance this year.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

You posted:

Thank you Beth for clarifying "warm honey gold", what you are referring to is a stock color of Wood Tux Wet. Let me get this right. What you are saying is that when its time for a maintenance of WTW on wood that was originally treated with WTW, the color is "yuck honey brown"? And strippers (I'm assuming NaOH) won't remove the old pigment from the wood? Can't you at least strip off most of the old WTW, apply a new coat, and get to at least "close" to the designed "warm honey gold" color?

No, but I can understand why I confused you. This is regarding any structure that has had behr installed on it and once stripped it looks ok but after the application of WT, the color is not what you'd expect due to some ingredient in the behr product like silicone or something else (again, no clue) that remains in the wood. The only way to completely get it (the behr ingredient) out is to sand the heck out of it and get below it's penetrated level to more pristine wood.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the only linseed oil based exterior wood stains I have seen with the above problem has been Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil. Reasoning indicates that the tung oil added into the product may be the problem. But even then, on hardwoods, most of the remaining color can be sanded or buffed out with a Makita.

Might be that tung oil or some other "permanent color" oil is included in WTW.

I defer to Russell on this one.

What do you mean by "hardened" wood? Is it so tough that sanding is difficult? Reason I ask is I've got exactly one WTW deck, and its due for a maintenance this year.

This was from post #28

Linseed oil, is an extract of flaxseed used in fine wood finishing for is moisturizing properties. This oil requires a drier and provides only minimal water resistance. Some versions of this oil are more refined and even polymerized. Wood treated with a polymerized oil tends to get harder with age. Ever noticed a ptp deck that is tough to sand?

Don't fear the maintenance with wtw. Just clean it focusing on the horizontals. The rails may exhibit some environmental staining which cleans easily. A percarbonate or efc-38 (even better) will do the trick. Just neutralize afterwards. Recoat but expect to use less product. We experience a 30% product savings on recoats.

Does this help?

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Whew! Your post had me worried for a moment. In all probability I'll strip this one WTW this year and apply RS. Last season, converted a few remaining old Wolman F&P customers to RS and aside from some Cabot solid oil jobs, all current customers are now RS wood. Nice and simple! Thanks.

[Jarrod 22]

How do you price maint. jobs compaired to strip, brighten & stain jobs?

[RPetry 564]

Jarrod,

For a job like this one WTW deck I have, it will be priced like a normal RS main. job. Reason being I put the stain on originally, and its my choice to change stains. Went through this for the past several years, changing original F&P customers over to RS. Did not charge any premium.

Wait a minute, the only reason I used WTW on this one deck was the customer insisted that the work be done in Nov., after the normal season. May have to rethink this one.

For regular old RS maintenance customers, materials and labor runs ~ 65 - 70% of a "new" customer. Reason is simple, a lot less labor, materials, and time. The wood dries out quick due to the paraffinic oil already in the substrate so I don't have the scheduling delays due to rain.

[PressurePros 249]

Rod,

You posted:

Thank you Beth for clarifying "warm honey gold", what you are referring to is a stock color of Wood Tux Wet. Let me get this right. What you are saying is that when its time for a maintenance of WTW on wood that was originally treated with WTW, the color is "yuck honey brown"?

I'm fairly certain Beth/Rod meant that when they try to strip a competing linseed oil (of which there are grades like anything else) and apply WT Warm Honey Gold (or the yellow, as my guys like to call it), the remaining product left from strip taints the tone of the Wood Tux negatively. I come to this conclusion by reading the posts leading up to one quoted.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'm fairly certain Beth/Rod meant that when they try to strip a competing linseed oil (of which there are grades like anything else) and apply WT Warm Honey Gold (or the yellow, as my guys like to call it), the remaining product left from strip taints the tone of the Wood Tux negatively. I come to this conclusion by reading the posts leading up to one quoted.

Exactly. Ken got it.

Beth

[Russell Cissell 65]

When you are working with semitransparent finishes, the color of the substrate, or wood itself will always have an impact of the final color. Regardless of the product you're using. Think of it as if you're mixing two different colors together. Your stain being one color and the wood itself being the other.

For example the Warm Honey Gold Wood-Tux stain is an amber yellow color and here is why. In my experience, the majority of homeowners want something that looks natural. It's common to hear them say "I like the way the wood looks when it's wet." Well, obviously without some pigment in the finish the wood will quickly begin to patina. By making the stain an amber yellow color we are able to block out the suns UV rays while at the same time staying as close to the natural color of the wood as possible.

Warm Honey Gold fits the bill on any species of wood that has a natural rich color. Ipe, Cambara, Red Cedar and your darker Pressure Treated lumbers are some examples.

Now, if the homeowner says, I like the way the neighbors deck looks, things become more interesting. Lets say for example, they want their greenish tinted pressure treated deck to look like their neighbors red cedar deck. Well, there was never anything green about the neighbors deck so that is the first thing you've got to cancel out. We all remember from art class that (HA!) that Red + Green = Brown. . .Eureka!

If you want to make Green Pressure Treated wood look like cedar, your stain needs to have some red in it.

If the homeowner has a very light yellowish pressure treated pine and you apply a Warm Honey Gold color, that's no good. You are basically adding the same colors to the wood, which will intensify it to an orangy color. So, if you want yellow pressure treated wood to look like a rich cedar your stain needs to cancel some of the yellow, increase the red and deepen the tone. Yellow + Black = Green + Red = Brown + Amber = Sweet!

For very light wood like yellow pine or light cedar you have to have a darker richer stain color if you want a finish result similar to Ipe or Cedar.

Some home owners prefer a finish that is more brown or more red. They don't always understand that the original color of the wood is half the story. If you present them with color samples remember, the color they choose isn't always the color you use. Make an effort to have a clear understanding of what they envision as the finished product and then match your stain color to the wood to achieve that result.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

Whew! Your post had me worried for a moment. In all probability I'll strip this one WTW this year and apply RS. Last season, converted a few remaining old Wolman F&P customers to RS and aside from some Cabot solid oil jobs, all current customers are now RS wood. Nice and simple! Thanks.

A word of note: If you are going back to RS after having WTW installed, you may not get the same penetration you once did with RS. It may stay on top and get tacky. Just playing Devils Advocate.

Wait a minute, the only reason I used WTW on this one deck was the customer insisted that the work be done in Nov., after the normal season. May have to rethink this one.

You may find you will have an easier time of it just recoating with wtw. I know how adverse you are to using a NAOH stipper so I am putting that out there for your consideration.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

I followed your significant others' advice on another thread here on the Grime Scene and had a few brews. Just arose from a peaceful mid day nap to find that you wrote:

A word of note: If you are going back to RS after having WTW installed, you may not get the same penetration you once did with RS. It may stay on top and get tacky. Just playing Devils Advocate.

What? I understand about WTW and WTW's lack of penetration. No doubt it is a different animal than paraffinic oil stains. Must have gotten 250 sq. ft. to the gallon on a percarb/citric prepped deck. Are you saying that I may not be able to strip and use RS?

You may find you will have an easier time of it just recoating with wtw. I know how adverse you are to using a NAOH stipper so I am putting that out there for your consideration.

Your are right, I do not like using NaOH unless necessary as I believe its bad for wood and its just a nasty chemical to work with. But of course, use it all the time to prep new customer's wood to accept RS. Past rumor and innuendo hinted that WTW was difficult to strip. Is it true? If I have to use BTN BFS II to get rid of the stuff Beth will ban me from the boards as I'll be screaming bloody friggin' murder.

Russell, what's the story?

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

With regard to:

A word of note: If you are going back to RS after having WTW installed, you may not get the same penetration you once did with RS. It may stay on top and get tacky. Just playing Devils Advocate.

I think, as Rod said, he is just playing Devils Advocate, or something. There is no actual logic in that statement. In my experience RS is not the type of stain to get tacky. Besides that, being that it is a paraffinic oil, it would migrate through the existing Wood-Tux finish unless it was freshly applied and I assume you are talking about an aged finish. In addition I believe that your stated intention was to remove the existing Wood-Tux before applying RS correct?

With regard to Wood-Tux being difficult to remove, I've seen others post that in the past too, but again that's just not our experience nor consistent with how the finish is designed. Unless it was just applied a day or so before, a milder product like EFC-38 will take it right off.

Having only used the product on the one deck, I would like you to elaborate on your statement about the products "lack of penetration." It would be interesting to get your perspective. I think it may touch on another popular misconception about exterior wood finishes.