Sealer Composition

[jnoden 15]

Since i have a fair amount of time on my hands until spring I figured i would post another question I have been curious about.

I always hear about the different types of oils that various sealer companies utilize in their stains. I also hear about the benefits of finely grounded transoxide pigments found in good stains. I never hear anything about the ingredient in a stain that actually seals moisture out. Is it the oil that repels moisture or is there something else? (speaking of oil based stains only). Does every company use the same ingredient/ chemical. Is it found more in some stains than others? If it is just the oil in the stain well than i guess water bourne stains use something else that generally last longer.

[plainpainter 217]

Ken - I haven't actually tested this brew on anyone's deck yet - I am really not inclined to do it. Although I have tons of customers that could care less what the heck I put on their deck. Maybe if I run into a house painting job - the ones where I toss in a deck staining for free, I'll try it out. Change that recipe to Raw instead of boiled - and that's what I use on wood siding after I pressure washed and scraped and sanded a house - I have yet to try adding a little wax. But when I saturate wood prior to spot-priming - it makes a world of difference in how my jobs last. Come up here for yourself. My houses don't peel - in my before and after shots, I explicitly do not take a photo of my home until 2 years has passed by. I want to show customers that when they pay for my services their home will look beautiful not only two weeks after I paint it - but two years. And most houses peel within two years of an exterior repaint around my parts.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Lets talk about oils then:

Linseed oil, is an extract of flaxseed used in fine wood finishing for is moisturizing properties. This oil requires a drier and provides only minimal water resistance. Some versions of this oil are more refined and even polymerized. Wood treated with a polymerized oil tends to get harder with age. Ever noticed a ptp deck that is tough to sand?

Tung oil, is derived from seeds of the tree and is used in place of Linseed oil in order to provide more water resistance.

Both are durable and penetrate the surface well on prepared surfaces that will allow them to.

Next! :)

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Good points on practical properties of linseed oil. A few more. First, linseed oil in general is a relatively inexpensive product to purchase in quantity. This is why so many ext. stain manufacturers use it. Second, as most know, it is a veritable feast for molds and mildews. This is why the stain manu's have to load up their products with mildewcide(s).

IMO, linseed based semi-trans ext. wood stains are inferior to other available products. More descriptive might be Home Depot consumer grade.

Tung oil is another animal. Tough stuff that really binds in the substrate of wood. But has the unfortunate property of being difficult to remove.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - I am a painter, and let me tell you - mold and mildew grow on anything. Why you bash linseed oil based stains is beyond me. And then post pictures of how well you cleaned up some vinyl sided home - you think that vinyl is a veritable feast for mildew? Yet we see vinyl sided homes everyday loaded with the stuff. Ever left a piece of wood unprotected outside? Notice that it becomes chock full of mold and mildew? Well place another piece of wood next to it - with a linseed oil based stain, and I assure you - there will be a lot less mildew on it. I think more than anything - this has more to do with guys who have no clue how to work with quality curing type finishes - such as Cabot's, California Storm stain, Muralo Lumberjacket, etc - all fine linseed oil based products.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick is correct in his posting.

Its not a bash to say the mildew proliferates on unprotected linseed oil. It is a fact. It is a natural food for mildew.

Mold grows everywhere yes, but it starts out as mildew and some locations create a suitable environment more readily than others.

-Since you paint, perhaps you may have noticed that the black or green stuff is most prominent in areas that are shaded but often wet or even more interestingly enough, crowded by bushes or sheltered by pine trees all of which limit air flow to dry the surfaces.

A little known factoid: Pine trees are in the same genome family as flax and contain high amounts of the underived linseed oil in the needles. The pollen released from these trees sticks on siding and exterior structures when damp from dew or rain. The commonly moist and shaded locations create an environment suitable to mildew growth which in turns spawns mold and algae. There is much more to mildew growth than linseed oil alone but in this case, the facts presented are widely accepted as published by US Forest Products Labs.

-As far as linseed oil based stains, no you will not see as much mildew for a longer period of time when compared with coated or bare wood due to the 2 prominent components; a mildewcide and a fungicide. These products you've mentioned Daniel are designed for exterior use and include the necessary ingredients to help facilitate a better result without the worry of microbial impregnation due to factors such as; incomplete or lack of suitable preparation in the forms of cleaning, sanding and disinfecting the surfaces they are applied to.

-One can buy the little additive packets of these in the paint stores to add to a paint product before application and for those who don't know, here is why: High humid conditions make the paint take longer to cure thus making it possible for spores and pollens to get caught in the paint and create a never ending problem of mildew growing from what seems like behind the paint. Yes, it can grow through the paint. Most paints do not have a mildewcide or Zinc oxide included and this is why they make this packet available for the contractor to decide on depending upon the climate they are working in.

-Speaking about Cabot in particular, they currently have a serious mildew growth problem with A.T.O. which uses linseed oil in the formulation as of past couple of years. We have noticed it with regard to applications on Ipe' and Cedar which in contrast, the product before the V.O.C. regulations were tightened in the 9 Atlantic coast states in '05 used to perform quite well.

-Not all products cure. Curing refers to hardening as in concrete or better known to us as acrylics, polymers, latex and bonding agents. These must become hard in order to have their strength and in that strength comes durability. Problem with curing in exterior wood is the thermal coefficient in which a product that once cured becomes inflexible and cannot expand and contract at the same rate as the wood will. Unless the wood is completely coated on all sides, it will fail quicker than other products that don't cure by cracking, flaking and peeling. Linseed oil based products do not cure. Latex does to an extent but due to the composition of linseed oil based products, the only thing they do do is dry. With a drier incorporated into the formulation, the product will not continue to dive into the wood and provide an environment for fungal growth.

-Choosing a product based upon these indicators will help one to decide suitability. Once a deck is built, it is not feasible to coat every side. If the deck is done correctly by (time consuming and more difficult) coating the (dry) boards before installation so that all six sides are protected, then the thermal coefficient is severely limited and the finish will last a long time with only minimal need for surface horizontals to be looked after.

Otherwise we have to used other products that will give a good performance but need to be cleaned and maintained at regular intervals.

btw...The assumptions of whether anyone has a clue or not was not constructive here.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Yet another stellar post. Do you have this stuff written down somewhere or is this all in your head? The FPL

Wood Handbook needs some serious updating. Wisc. should be calling!

Dan,

Sometimes the best evidence is by example. Maybe 5 years ago, Behr's settled a class action lawsuit for an amount north of $150 million due to not enough mildewcide in some of their linseed oil exterior wood stains.

Exterior wood was being severely damaged, and in some areas of the Pacific Northwest actually rotting, due to poorly formulated products.

I see this wood every season in NJ. Unless you want to NaOH soak for hours, this wood is permanently mottled and discolored by deep mildew stains.

[plainpainter 217]

I guess I have been using quality products. I just know the linseed oil based products I have been using have worked great. And I have used a fair share of linseed oil based solid oil stains on exterior applications - and have never noticed much mold or mildew. I did paint this one home with California 2010 exterior satin latex white trim enamel - pressure washed the home clean - and it is riddled with mildew on this trim. The remainder of the home that is oil solid stained clapboards has no mildew. And that was Muralo's linseed oil based solid stain. My sister - I sprayed her fence with Cabot's solid oil stain - white - one year and still no mildew. She has pine trees next to her home - the house with white latex trim, has no pine trees anywhere near it - and the mildew growth is bad on Southern facing side with full sun.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rod,

Do you have this stuff written down somewhere or is this all in your head? The FPL

Wood Handbook needs some serious updating. Wisc. should be calling!

It's all in my head...if I do this enough :lgbonk: it falls right out!

So far, only the few have come to have a discussion, the rest must be somewhere warm and working their butts off.

:taz: CABIN FEVER SUCKS!!!

Rod!~

[PLD 14]

I find no characteristic of what I know of "wax" in or about the stain. When I experience what I think is wax, its like a candle. A solid to be sure, but malleable. After weeks of exposure to air and warm temps, RS will kind of harden into a solid on my Decker 5'er. But there's nothing "waxy" about it!

Is the generic term "wax" not necessarily what a non chemist thinks is wax? I don't know. Where's Peirce or Russell?

Wax is a specific chemical term, and a generic description (looks waxy). The physical properties of "wax" range from cream like to hard as plastic. Carnuba wax, for example, is much more like plastic than wax. When you apply it to your car, the buffer actually melts the wax onto the surface.

[RPetry 564]

Philip,

Thanks for your reply. My more specific question is trying to determine if there is any chemical or I guess physical characteristic relationship between paraffinic oil and paraffin wax.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Philip,

Thanks for your reply. My more specific question is trying to determine if there is any chemical or I guess physical characteristic relationship between paraffinic oil and paraffin wax.

Ok, I did a little digging and what I have found basically supports the assumption that Paraffinic oil and paraffin wax are directly related physically and in the other basis is that one is derived from the other.

Paraffinic oil aka kerosene is derived from crude oil and contains some paraffin wax.

Paraffin wax is a condensate from some crude oils after a boiling process which separates the hydrocarbons upon freezing the barrels. This is what is used in making candles, baking, preservatives and waterproofing.

,~.whew.~.

Rod!~

[jnoden 15]

so based on the last post, parafin wax is used for waterproofing. Doe that mean that it is parafin wax and not parafinic oil that is found in deck sealers? Not that it really matters either way to me.

I was originally wondering what wood sealer companies use as their waterproofing chemical and which is the best, meaning which last longest. So linseed, tungs oil and parafin are the waterproffing agents in most deck stains. Also it is safe to say that these agents are all oils that have dual purposes and the other is to condition the wood and replenish natural oils that can be leeched out during the cleaning/ stripping process.

Lets start a new thread on mildecides. haha...just kidding.

or am I?

[Russell Cissell 65]

I fully agree with keeping things professional on these BBS's. Like Beth pointed out, people searching the web for these topics are likely to come across what is written here and on other BBS's. In large part being a professional is about taking responsibility. I think TGS in particular is a great place for people to come and learn. It's great that there are so many good people here willing to help out.

It's natural for people who want to help to become overzealous sometimes. Without realizing it, and with all of the best intentions, those who want to help may actually do more harm than good. Parts of this thread are an example of that. I think it is important to be sure the information you share when you intend to help others is accurate. Bad information at best confuses people and at worst leads to someone getting hurt.

It's true that wood restoration and pressure washing in general is not rocket science, but when it comes to the chemistry behind it, it's not like trading cake recipes either. The following "facts" presented in this thread are just plain bad information. It's important that anyone reading this should know the difference.

Most oils are drying oils in that once they penetrate and are absorbed into the wood, dry in place providing a measure of water repellent-ability that exists between oil and water, their ions repel each other.

It is important to understand that paraffinic (petroleum) oils are nonionic so there are no ions to repel each other.

Pigments such as you mentioned in addition to clay and earth along with other oxide pigments need a carrier to keep them in suspension until application. This is usually accomplished by either solvents or phenols (alcohols in water based/bourne) that evaporate once liberated upon application.

Solvents are only one means of temporarily holding pigment in suspension. For instance, solvents are used in pigment dispersions to keep a dry pigment suspended in a liquid for easier blending. In a stain or sealer the oils hold the pigment in suspension. That is why heavier bodied oil stains require less stirring than their thinner counterparts. Phenols are illegal and are not used to make stain or sealer.

Paraffin and paraffinic are of the same nature only Paraffinic (oil) is a derivative containing wax while the other is a compound (paraffin wax).

Paraffinic oil does not necessarily contain wax. Paraffinic is a descriptor in this case a type of oil or a kind of wax.

Exposure to minerals in soil accelerate this process by adding a catalyst in which spawns higher organisms to coexist and breakdown the wood.

Adding a mineral to anything will not spawn a higher form of life. On earth, organisms always spawn like organisms. Mold will always yield mold. Mold + minerals will never spawn a chicken or any life form higher than mold. The biggest problem I see is pollen or something providing a food source for mold.

Adding oils to the wood keeps it from drying out.

Adding oil to wood does not keep it from drying out and in fact, some types of oils can cause wood to dry out faster. I think there are two points being confused here. Wood that is free of water is good. Drying wood to remove excess water is a part of the process between forrest and lumber yard. Once at the lumber yard the challenge to keep water from getting back into the wood begins.

Wood has natural oils in varying amounts by species. As a rule lighter wood like pine has much less oil than heavier wood such as Ipe. Without some protection these natural oils can be depleted. That being the case, oils can be added to the wood to replace what is missing.

The water evaporation is enhanced by the alcohols in the formulation and as drying takes place, the water either is channeled inwards and out through uncoated areas or back to the surface being coated.

In waterborne systems, the polymer sets up as the water evaporates (almost completely). This evaporation happens at the surface, the water is never "channeled" deeper in. That is why this type of system is called an "evaporative coating"

Some even use acetones and ketones as carriers to lower the VOC content instead of solvents like hydrocarbons, mineral spirits, xylene, stoddard solvent etc.

Acetone IS a keytone and is 100% volatile or 100%VOC. Acetone is exempt from the VOC regulations, but make no mistake about it, it is never used to lower the VOC content. It may be used to skirt the regulations but Acetone is no friend to the environment.

It's a great thing to want to give back to the industry and help others but remember to stick with what you know and understand. Unless you are 100% confident with the source, you should always check the facts.

The topic of this thread (sealer composition) is way too broad to fully adress in this type of format. Perhaps we would be better served taking things one component at a time?

What is everyones primary concern?

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

Good post. This could be a real valuable thread. If you do not mind being the professor of Stain 101, I'll take advantage.

A few points. As most of us are using primarily semi-trans oil stains, I suggest we keep the discussion focused towards these product types. Also, many of us may not have a fundamental understanding of stain composition. If you have the time and are willing to help educate, can we start near the beginning?

First question. It is my understanding that the primary ingredients of semi-trans. stains consist of oils, resins, solvents or "carrier", and pigments. Would you kindly explain the primary ingredients, examples of each, the purposes of each, and how they work together?

Nothing elaborate, just the basics in layman's terms please. Thanks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thanks Russel for adding to the information.

It helps to have clarification on these types of points as you have done when I was speaking in general expounds on the whole. What took you so long?!?! :)

Anyway, I don't want to mince words as I have noticed that certain ones were of the object of your response.

i.e. ions when I should have said molecules. But I realize it is important in terminology to make that distinction otherwise it leads to mis-information. I am no scientist and in the dissemination one can make mistakes. That will improve thanks to your post.

Rod!~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

My responses are in blue:

Solvents are only one means of temporarily holding pigment in suspension. And to make sure that when you open the container, the product hasn't already set up thus, keeping it viable for application. For instance, solvents are used in pigment dispersions to keep a dry pigment suspended in a liquid for easier blending. In a stain or sealer the oils hold the pigment in suspension. That is why heavier bodied oil stains require less stirring than their thinner counterparts. Phenols are illegal and are not used to make stain or sealer.

While this is true and I will admit that I should have made sure I was looking at the right page of the Chemical reactivity worksheet when I wrote this one. Propylene Glycol is the chemical. I would also like to add that aqua ammonia is also used as well. Why they use these ingredients is yet to be determined but I am sure this could add to the discussion since water based products are becoming more common.

Paraffinic oil does not necessarily contain wax. Paraffinic is a descriptor in this case a type of oil or a kind of wax.

According to my research there actually is a small amount of it still in the composition. Negligible amounts of course.

Parffin / Wax and Waxy Crude Oil

Experimental and Theoretical Investigation of Paraffinic Oil Gel Breaking Mechanism

I am not familiar with the refining or other methods that get it to be what is used in sealers.

Adding a mineral to anything will not spawn a higher form of life. On earth, organisms always spawn like organisms. Mold will always yield mold. Mold + minerals will never spawn a chicken or any life form higher than mold. Which is still a higher form The biggest problem I see is pollen or something providing a food source for mold.

Mincing words, but organisms breed, grow and live in the earth and from a biological standpoint where fungi that is common to wood rot are concerned, they work in conjunction with the soil to break down wood. It's a symbiotic relationship. Soil contains minerals that when exposed to other catalytic/reactive agents (H2O for one) form other degenerative compounds. This is especially significant in potting soil where the nitrogen, (Ammoniacal Nitrogen and Urea Nitrogen) along with Phosphates, Potash, Boron, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Zinc etc. have been boosted, augmented or otherwise added. This, along with moisture retention accelerates the process by breaking things down for nutritative absorption by the plants root system.

Because of the decomposition capabilities of soil and fungi in general, this is particularly the reason why ground contact wood is given a higher concentration of preservative (21%+) to deter the decomposition. But, in the case of wood used as decking, the common practice of builders is to use above ground (10%) which is more susceptible to decomposition when exposed to these conditions. One is to kill the bacteria before it can grow and the other is to render the wood into a different state similar to mummification. Decomposition just takes a lot longer therefore the useful life is extended.

Mildew is a fungi but the fungi associated with wood rot is a higher form of it. Mildew in itself does not damage wood but these other forms do when combined with mineral decomposition and moisture which are catalytic reactions.

This link is a good one discussing the fungi associated with wood rot which is off topic but still an opportunity to learn.

http://helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/microbes/armill.htm

Mildew grows into algae which we all have slipped on when wet. This is the primary reason for removal...safety. Other than that, the effects are aesthetic and if left to grow unchecked will just cover the wood preventing UV penetration in as many other forms which can survive in direct sunlight.

Adding oil to wood does not keep it from drying out and in fact, some types of oils can cause wood to dry out faster. Please elaborate :) I think there are two points being confused here. Wood that is free of water is good. Drying wood to remove excess water is a part of the process between forrest and lumber yard. Once at the lumber yard the challenge to keep water from getting back into the wood begins.

True, and I should point out that oils are advocated to help keep the wood from drying out and it can be construed that they impart moisturization especially in the case of mineral oils and paraffinic oils which do posses these capabilities although short in duration, they help moisturize the wood cells to bring them into a state of functionality that helps a product containing them penetrate better.

Wood has natural oils in varying amounts by species. As a rule lighter wood like pine has much less oil than heavier wood such as Ipe. Without some protection these natural oils can be depleted. That being the case, oils can be added to the wood to replace what is missing.

Which leads to warping, cupping, etc as we all know. Unfortunately, they are also having to deal with the barrier that extractives create. High extractive content can make wood impermeable (impenetrable) to sealers which creates the need for other ingredients that actually change them or destroy them in order to get them into the wood. Perhaps you could elaborate more on this Russell. Sad but true: it is interesting that in the process of trying to protect wood we must first damage it.

In waterborne systems, the polymer sets up as the water evaporates (almost completely). This evaporation happens at the surface, the water is never "channeled" deeper in. That is why this type of system is called an "evaporative coating"

Then where does the water go that has been absorbed into the wood? The wood by nature will take it into itself thus channeling is facilitated by the capillaries (elongated ducts). Acrylics for example are not a permeable coating and do not "breathe" allowing moisture trapped below it to escape. I know from talking with you that resins in certain formulations do this but I cannot find anything to substantiate that acrylics can perform this way.

Acetone IS a keytone and is 100% volatile or 100%VOC. Acetone is exempt from the VOC regulations, but make no mistake about it, it is never used to lower the VOC content. It may be used to skirt the regulations but Acetone is no friend to the environment.

True, but for the basis of information to those (especially myself) who are not chemists and may not recognize the families upon reading labels, this was a good example. Methyl Ethyl Ketones like what are used in many formulations containing alkyds are present for the benefit of keeping the product in suspension. I stand corrected.

Again, I am not a biologist/chemist and the information I give here while it may not be presented in a class room structure is meant to elicit questions for further clarification if what is posted here goes beyond a readers current knowledge base. Otherwise, I would have to put out a 20-5000 page thesis on this covering all relevant topics, paradigms, terminology and hypothesis which I am not interested in doing and noone could stay awake long enough to read it all. :)

Don't let this stop anyone from answering/asking questions or participating because it is all learning. We learn what is good and what is not based upon the contributions made. As Russell has pointed out, we make mistakes and sometimes need things to be presented in another way for understanding. (tomato/tomato) in some cases.

I would not want to narrow the scope on this too much because there is no need unless we are talking about VOC regulations, CWA or EPA concerns based upon a products ingredient in question.

Back on topic though, sealer composition in its own right is justified as we need to understand what works best; where, under what conditions, in which climates, and for how long. These form the basis of our business decisions on what to offer and we need a better understanding of them in order to answer our customers questions. Some of them posed to me have been pretty tough. :goodgrief That's ok though because they help me to know where my weakness is and in doing so, give me the questions I need to find answers to which in the future will benefit others who ask them of me.

Rod!~

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

Your understanding of the ingredients is pretty well right on. To keep things simple forget about the word "carrier" as an ingredient. In the finished formulation, the oil itself is the primary carrier.

Now that leaves four things to discuss. Oils, Resin, Solvents and Pigment.

Most oil based finish formulations will primarily consist of these four ingredients in different ratios depending on the intended purpose of the finish. One of the best ways to predict how long a finish will last in any particular situation is to look at it's solid content.

The term solids has adopted two definitions in this industry so it can get a little confusing. In the paint industry solids are used to refer to the body (or resin) and the pigments. In our industry it has taken on a modified definition of "anything that doesn't evaporate when the finish cures." I find the old paint definition a much better indication of a products longevity.

By way of example, look at two of our products, Woodrich Brand Timber Oil and Wood-Tux Stain. If you use the "anything that doesn't evaporate" criteria, Timber Oil is nearly 100% solids while Wood-Tux falls short of 80%. This is because Timber Oil is a paraffinic based formula with virtually no solvent or other evaporative. If our marketing boasted nearly 100% solids you might believe that Timber Oil would last longer

More important to the longevity and effectiveness of a product is the amount of resin and pigment solids. Using the measure as understood by the coatings industry Wood-Tux is actually much higher in solids because we wouldn't count the paraffinic oil that is in Timber Oil as a solid, only the resin and pigments. We don't count the paraffinic oil because alone it will never dry or cure, therefore it is always subject to loss.

Because Wood-Tux is higher in resin and pigment solids you will get a much better spread rate and gallon for gallon more protection. Timber Oil is designed to dive much deeper into the wood for conditioning purposes. It contains less pigment by percentage and requires more product to be applied to achieve the same concentration of pigments at the surface.

Generally speaking, the higher the resin and pigment solids, the more difficult a finish will be to apply. Timber Oil is extremely easy to apply because it has very little resin. Wood-Tux requires more skill because it is a heavy bodied finish that is very high in resin and pigment solids. Again, there is no magic bullet so you have to find what works best for you.

This is no exaggeration, there are manufacturers out there who put more $$ per gallon into marketing than they do the actual product. The fastest way to separate marketing hype from fact is to do your own product testing. In most cases you will find that a couple months is all it takes to recognize quality.

I'm not sure how well I did at answering your questions. It's difficult for me to talk about broad subjects without going into sales mode. You know they put the word SELL in my name twice for a reason. I'm more than happy to spend time educating contractors. If you would like more specific information, I would be glad to take another stab at it.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

Thanks much theres a lot of info in your post. Yeah, trash the "carrier", no question it is the oil, I meant to write "binder".

Very good description on the old "my solid is better than yours" nonsense. Due to the new VOC regs, I would assume that nearly all manufacturer's must up the non-evaporative, non-volitile solids measurements to comply. How are they doing that? Some type of inert "filler"?

Resins. Now it gets interesting. From what little I think I know, do resins act as a "binder", in other words, marrying all other ingedients together? This is my impression. If so, there is a close and important symbiotic relationship between resins and pigment. And typically, what are these resins made of?

If you care to elaborate, I'm all ears. Be forwarnded, if you reply, more questions will be forthcoming.

You know they put the word SELL in my name twice for a reason.

Hah, can't imagine that!

Thanks.

[plainpainter 217]

resins are binders.

[Russell Cissell 65]

As a manufacturer, I would be out of line speaking directly to the how or why of other companies. The choices are fairly limited. You are exactly right though, if they want to continue to sell in those markets they have to lower the volatile content. That means an increase in more expensive oils and resin. There really isn't any inert "cheap filler" that can be used.

Resins. Now it gets interesting. From what little I think I know, do resins act as a "binder," in other words, marrying all other ingedients together? This is my impression. If so, there is a close and important symbiotic relationship between resins and pigment. And typically, what are these resins made of?

When you are talking about the longevity of a finish, nothing is more important than the pigment to binder (resin) ratio. As you said, the binder is what sort of locks everything in place. For example Woodrich Brand Timber Oil is called a stain (not a sealer) because even though it is high in pigment content, it is low in binder resin. Most of the oil in that product is paraffinic oil which doesn't dry or cure. There is only enough resin in the formula to hold the pigment in suspension. So it is a non drying oil based stain. Even though it will keep water out of the wood, it would be misleading to call this product a sealer.

On the flip side, Woodtux is extremely high in both pigment and binder and has no paraffinic oil. This means that after it's applied, it will dry and cure to form a seal. This seal works both to keep water out and to keep all the good stuff in. If you apply the exact same amount of each product side by side on a deck, the Timber Oil would offer less protection because there is nothing protecting the oil and pigment. That means that it can dissipate or even be washed away by the rain. Wood-Tux will last a long time before it even begins to break down because the resin cures to protect everything and keep it in the wood.

Resins are simply modified oils. Take for instance linseed oil. Plain old linseed oil can be used in a stain formulation to get one result or you can first "cook" that linseed oil into an alkyd resin for a different end result. It all just depends on what the finish is being designed for. By itself linseed oil will eventually dry out and there are a variety of "dryers" that can be used in the formulation to speed this process. (still not really a sealer) The difference is, once made into an alkyd the same linseed oil will "cure" and form a seal either at or on the surface of the wood.

Those that would have you believe that linseed oil if food for mold and mildew earn their paycheck from the marketing department. The bottom line is paraffinic oil is much cheaper than resins. Because it's not a "vegetable" oil or my favorite "food oil" they attack linseed oil and have you believe that it will "attract" mold and mildew.

I am here to tell you if you take two boards, one treated with just linseed oil and one treated with just paraffinic oil, there is no contest. Paraffinic oil does not dry so mold and mildew spores stick to it along with pollen and other organics. Once you the mold and mildew will not "feed" on the oil, but they will thrive on the buffet that is caught by the wet oil.

When it comes to long term mold and mildew prevention, I would much rather work with nice alkyd than a non drying paraffinic oil. That is why I recommend that Timber Oil should be top coated with Wood-Tux or Woodrich Stain & Seal. I really cant say it any better than Plainpainter did above.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

Good stuff.

nothing is more important than the pigment to binder (resin) ratio.

Which side of the equation is more important? As written, pigment would give you a higher ratio. Is the holy grail just enough resin to "bind" the amout of pigment desired, or the opposite?

So it is a non drying oil based stain. Even though it will keep water out of the wood, it would be misleading to call this product a sealer.

Finally, a definition that makes sense. Been doing this for a while and never could figure out the difference between stain and sealer. Bet most contractors can't either. Kudos, great stuff.

Resins are simply modified oils.

Really, now thats interesting and unknown to me. What type of oils are typical and how / why are they modified?

Those that would have you believe that linseed oil if food for mold and mildew earn their paycheck from the marketing department.

I must question the veracity of this statement. Why the Behr's monster class action settlement (after going to trial) and why do I still see mildew stained Behr's treated wood years later? No corporation settles for 150 million on a whim. The courts found Behr's negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines. All product lines in the judgement were linseed based exterior oil stains.

[plainpainter 217]

Did Russell Cissell just back me up? Hey Russell I have this recipe that involves that new cabots waterbourne silicone sealer + Boiled linseed oil + copper pentahydrate + enough acetone to make the water base miscible with oil. We should talk......lol, I really did make this concoction though!

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, you just developed Wood Tux 2

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - Behr is a big player in the california market - and marketed mostly to DIY'ers. Put the two together and you may have a nightmare. If you take that same product and apply it to a deck that you prepared vs. a homeowner I bet it wouldn't turn out so bad. And companies settle all the time. Civil court ain't about who's right and who's wrong - just about finding an 'uncle' point both parties can agree on. If any product like sikkens or cabots was aggressively marketed through lowe's or home depot markets - you'd find a huge base of unhappy people with their products as well. Heck if Woodtux was sold through home depot - I bet Russell would probably commit suicide - there's a good reason to keep certain products Contractor exclusive.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Which side of the equation is more important? As written, pigment would give you a higher ratio. Is the holy grail just enough resin to "bind" the amount of pigment desired, or the opposite?

The best way I can answer that simply is Pigment/Binder : Everything else

Obviously you need several other key components like mildewcides, dryers, etc., to make the finish function properly but these key ingredients are required in smaller percentages.

When you look specifically at the pigments and binder resin, proportionally you will have much more resin, but the pigment gives you the best "protection" at the surface. Remember, the customer complains loudest when it doesn't "look" good. The wood may be completely protected but if it isn't pretty, it's no good.

Really, now thats interesting and unknown to me. What type of oils are typical and how / why are they modified?

I don't really feel qualified to answer that question. From my experience linseed oil and soy oil both make for a nice alkyd. Though they are quite different in what you can do with them, both can be used to make an excellent finish. There is a wide variety of other oils used ranging from nut oils to rose oils but I'm not sure that all can be modified into an alkyd. That's why I draw a tech support check and Richard makes the big money!

The reason they are modified is to make them more betterer and I'll teach you how it's done if you would like to come work in production.

I must question the veracity of this statement. Why the Behr's monster class action settlement (after going to trial) and why do I still see mildew stained Behr's treated wood years later? No corporation settles for 150 million on a whim. The courts found Behr's negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines. All product lines in the judgement were linseed based exterior oil stains.

The courts found Behr negligent for failing to put adequate mildewcides in some of their product lines. If we released Woodrich Brand Timber Oil (A paraffinic based formula which contains no raw linseed oil) and failed put adequate mildewcides in it, I would expect it to have mildew problems and result in customer complaints. How those complaints were handled would determine whether or not we ever wound up in court.

We took the easy way out and loaded our Timber Oil down with mildewcide like the rest of our formulas.