Favorite Woodtux Formulas

[plainpainter 217]

So has anyone here have any favorite woodtux formulas, i.e. reduced woodtux stain? Basically painting a house and throwing in a deck staining as a value added job. But don't really care to put woodtux at full strength - just looking to see if anyone has come up with a tier system of quality. For instance tier 3 woodtux to water 1:1 for ok decent jobs, tier 2 wood tux to water 2:1 great quality jobs, tier level 1 - woodtux full strength

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We use it for the most part as it comes out of the can.

Only on fences do we thin it at about 10-20% with water.

We want it to perform well and cutting it too much will shorten it's lifespan as we understand it. Personally, I don't feel qualified to second guess the manufacturer on a formula they devised for a specific purpose.

Rod!~

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

Have you thought about using Woodrich Brand Stain & Seal?

Russell

[plainpainter 217]

To be honest, Russell, I haven't thought about it much. But my suspicion is that If I cut woodtux that it will mirror woodrich in performance - it's not an all out parafinnic stain. So I imagine it's woodtux thinned out some - I'd rather just buy woodtux and thin it myself. I may be way off base - but more importantly - lots of customers you sometimes have to do things to make yourself lool professional - like taking two weeks to do a paint job when it could be done in one, otherwise they start asking questions - why does it cost so much? And with your stain - if I apply it to wet decks with homeowners that are home all the time - they start asking questions, and let's face it - this technology goes against what most contractors know about deckstaining - so you can imagine all those homeowners out there who jump on the internet to become educated - will start accusing me of not waiting for 12% dryness. You can't reason with these people - so I'd rather just wait for the stupid decks to dry out. Even if I don't have to - where I see your product helping me is, when a customer isn't looking - just pre-wetting these 130 degree decks I seem to run into all the time or applying a thinned down version of woodtux to a dry deck - which would mirror applying straight woodtux to a damp deck. And your product which is high in solids - doesn't seem to penetrate like traditionally thinned down products of the past. Higher solids is higher quality - but I don't care about all the jargon of 'carrier' oils - I can't get Raw linseed oil, if it isn't thinned, to penetrate wood before it sets up - and that stuff is suppose to never dry - you'd think it would be a good quality 'carrier' oil. So I will be experimenting with cutting woodtux with water and adding nonylphenol as a wetting agent and/or adding turps or acetone.

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, you may not be big on presentations and consumer educaition but all the things you are menining to me read as all the things I think the other guys do.. cutting corners and practicing deception. Consider getting away from the painter's mentality. The key benefits from usng Wood Tux are its longevity and keeping one on schede regardless of weather. It seems you are hell bent on disabling both.

I know you are a guy that manages his expnses very well. It may be worth looking at a different aspect of residential and sell on quality wth a finer tuned marketing and sales agenda.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

You are correct in thinking that Woodrich Stain & Seal is a modified version of the Wood-Tux formula. In the simplest of terms if you take Wood-Tux and cut it 30% with paraffinic oil and then add 3.5% pigment by final weight you have Woodrich Stain & Seal.

If you cut Wood-Tux 30% with water and applied it side by side with Woodrich Stain & Seal they would look very similar once they both cure. They would not perform the same over time. Woodrich Stain & Seal will last longer. It gets really complicated when I try to chemically explain why, but from a practical point of view this is what's important.

Wood-Tux is an oil based formula. When you cut it with water you are not really thinning it, you are reducing it. When you cut a water based paint with water you have thinner paint and more of it. When you cut Wood-Tux with water you have Wood-Tux and water. You have more volume of liquid but it is still Wood-Tux and water. Eventually they must separate.

Now think about 1 gallon of Wood-Tux having 100 units of protection. If you cut it with 1 gallon water you have 2 Gallons of "product" but you've still only got 100 units of protection. Because water (in this mix) makes for a lousy carrier, you will get about equal penetration out of your new mix. That means that you are going to spread 100 units of protection over twice the area of wood. (half the protection of Wood-Tux)

You have half the pigment, half the mildewcides and here is the big one. . .half the binder. The binder is what holds everything in place and now you've spread it twice as far. It will only be half as strong. So in effect you now have half the protection lasting half as long.

When you thin Wood-Tux with an oil, you get a different scenario. For example if you just took 1 gallon of Wood-Tux and added 1 gallon of paraffinic oil you get 2 gallons of thinner Wood-Tux. Because you've actually reduced the viscosity with the appropriate carrier you are going to get increased penetration or a reduction in spread rate. So your same 100 units of protection will cover virtually the same surface area as the original Wood-Tux because the oils will dive deeper and faster.

I am really over simplifying this to make my point.

Another way to think about it. . .

Imagine your wood is like a progressive strainer or filter. The deeper you go into the wood, the smaller the holes in your filter become. At the surface (3 - 5 mils) you have big ole # 4 holes and at the heart of the board you have tiny little #1 holes or smaller

Now imagine that your stain is made up of 4 different sized components. From smallest to largest they would be:

1 Mildewcide

2 Oil

3 Resin

4 Pigment

The mildewcide and oil can filter all the way to the heart of the wood. The resin goes a little deeper than the surface and all of the pigment is trapped in the upper most layer of the filter. For the finish to provide UV protection it has to load up the surface of the wood with UV blocking pigment.

For simplicity lets say you require 100 units of pigment per square foot to protect the wood from UV damage for 1 year. If you were to apply straight pigment, it would take very little volume to load up all of the #4 holes. If you apply straight oil, you would have to fill all of the #2 holes, then all of the #3 holes and then finally all of the #4 holes would fill up.

In a perfect world the perfect product "if it were possible" would have exactly enough pigment to fill all of the number #4 holes with just a little room left for resin and mildewcide. All of the number 3 holes would contain resin and only about 80 - 90 # of the #2 holes would be filled. In that way you know that you have the maximum amount of your best protection at the surface.

Too much oil and there isn't enough room left for binder and pigment. Because the oil doesn't evaporate, if it fills all the way up into the #4 holes it won't ever let the pigment fill them all the way. Too much resin and pigment makes the finish very difficult to work with and you leave too many #1 and # 2 holes empty.

In the good ole' days, it was pretty easy, you would just take the amount of pigment and binder you wanted and thin the heck out of it with mineral spirits. The spirits would dive into the wood and pull the pigment and resin as deep as they could go and the spirits would evaporate leaving plenty of room. Now it has to be way more precisely calculated. To make things worse, mineral spirits were less expensive than most any alternative. So now, a good finish is more difficult to make and much more expensive.

Bringing this back around to a why the heck does Dan care place, the point is this. All water does is reduce your solids content without accelerating or enhancing penetration. When you cut with water you are truly reducing the amount of pigment and resin going into the #4 holes. The only fix for that is to apply two coats, which defeats the purpose of cutting it to begin with. (back to the same cost per square foot with more application time).

Woodrich has been thinned with oil so it will dive faster, but the pigment is adjusted to be sure all the #4 holes get filled up. I can't speak for the market in general, but with regard to our products, they all basically cost the same amount because all you pay for is the resin and pigment. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you pay $139.00 per pail for Wood-Tux or $99.00 per pail for Woodrich Brand Timber Oil your cost per square foot is going to be between 12 and 14 cents.

The real difference is in application. Wood-Tux will always cover in 1 coat on any type of dry wood and will last 3 to 4 years. Woodrich Stain & Seal will usually cover in 1 coat, sometimes takes 2 and will last 2 to 4 years. Woodrich Timber Oil will require at least 2 coats and will last about half as long.

If you want to do some field modification to demand that "custom" dollar, thin your Wood-Tux with Woodrich Timber Oil. If you want my honest opinion on the fastest, easiest way to get what you want, just buy Woodrich Stain & Seal.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

Know your above reply was for Dan but I'm far from home and bored. Not any more.

The above post is the clearest, most detailed explaination of the purpose of physical components of exterior wood stain and how they interact with the properties of the exterior wood itself.

This, or something similar, should be required reading for anyone taking any "Certified" Wood Contractor course.

[plainpainter 217]

Wow - great explanation on how these stains are working. I can't imagine another manufacturer going out of their way to explain how things work - now I have a greater understanding, thanks Russ. I also have a guilty conscience now - so I will be buying more woodtux to ease it. Just wait in a few years, Russ will be making so much dough he'll be able to afford to ignore us idiots! LOL. Just one question - why on your website do you show water reduced woodtux being applied to a mahogany/Ipe deck and explaining how the water makes the stain more readily absorbed into the wood - when above you state:

If you cut it with 1 gallon water you have 2 Gallons of "product" but you've still only got 100 units of protection. Because water (in this mix) makes for a lousy carrier, you will get about equal penetration out of your new mix. That means that you are going to spread 100 units of protection over twice the area of wood. (half the protection of Wood-Tux)

On your website you state:

To speed up the application the stain was reduced 2:1 with water. Reducing the stain helps the applicator lay down thin coats that will more readily dive into this dense hard wood.

So my question is.....if making water reduced woodtux makes it more readily dive into the wood as you described - does that contradict you stating that water is a lousy carrier and you get equal penetration with or without water? And if not can you further explain these two points? I promise to buy more woodtux! Or at least some HD80 or something. But I think you have forgotten, you aren't selling woodtux for $139 anymore - you upped the price to $169

[plainpainter 217]

Yeah I know what you are saying Ken about focusing on quality and targeting good customers. I just got a little depressed today about some email from some guy making feel like a piece of rubbish for asking for $900 to paint a 12x13 bedroom two coats with all my prep work. It takes me 20 hours of labor to sand everything, TSP clean, caulk, fill nail holes, prime all the emulliens where the paint flaked off - two coats on everything, vacuuming etc. Basically was like - 'do I get gold leaf with that' Some people are so amazingly cheap sometimes it gets me down. I can't paint a bedroom anymore for $500 unless it's just one coat - and I ain't sanding anything - maybe caulking and hole filling - but nothing else! Not to mention I just paid this contractor to insulate a 16x16 addition under the floor in a crawl space - he put in vapor guards and what not - two guys worked the morning - and it cost a grand. And people want me to spend two and half days painting a family room and only want to pay $500 or $350 after materials and sundries are taken out - so that would be making $17/hr over the table as a contractor - I pay that to guys cash under the table - don't people understand all the costs to run a business? At $17/hr - I'd be lucky to make a $2 or $3 an hour after I paid all my costs for running a contracting business - anyways way off topic - sorry. Just feeling the winter blues - can't wait to get more into pressure washing this spring - and make some real money for a change.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Daniel,

I know where you are coming from. Most people either don't know or don't care about what goes into a business. To them they have somehow developed a sense that contracting is just labor and materials. So they figure into their head a calculation based upon what they are "willing" to pay and what they think it is "worth" and come up with a price they think they should hear and are prepared to part with. They have been in the stores and looked at a few prices and think they have the upper hand.

But when we come in with a price that is twice as high or more, they freak out.

First, they rationalize why they are more in line.

Second, they scrutinize what you are offering for your price.

Third, they make a comparison with their list against yours to gain an advantage.

Fourth, they finally ask you why yours is so much higher and here is the punch line "than the other guy".

Now you are in the bargaining stage (if you do not control the situation) and they will try to get you to come down on the price closer to what they had in mind.

We've all been through this is the beginning. We get sucked into the consumer vortex of justifying price.

In a competitive frame of mind, we may not be as forth coming with our costs, but if you take the time to itemize like a grocery list, people actually get to quantify things better.

Without a list of the costs broken out, it is perceived as a figure you pulled out of your behind. We all know where this kind of business practice comes from. But most of us have a sincere interest in doing business the best we can and establish a reputation that is favorable. So we should be doing things in the most above board and ethical way possible.

For some people, only the lowest price works. Had a guy who had crawled all over our website, called us for an estimate, and on the date I went to see him, he was talking to me about how great he thinks we are and convinced we are the ones to do the work. He also admitted he was the guy who built the structure and save a boat load of money. (FLAG) I was polite, smiled and took the measurements. He noticed I was measuring the rails and commented about it like it was going a bit too far. (FLAG) Then I started writing up the proposal while he was talking to me and asking me questions. Finally, I wrote the bottom line figure and flipped to the pages containing all the government requisites and disclosures required in my state that I make the customer aware of our compliances. He saw the liability coverage and told me that in this business I didn't need to have that much to do this job and that likely would be reflected in the price. (FLAG) I informed him that our business scope required it. To this he started to get agitated. (FLAG) Then I flipped back to the proposal and started to explain the figures and he went straight to the bottom line and told me there was no way he would pay that price and his idea of how much it was worth is less than half of what I had on paper. (FLAG)(BOOM) I politely said thank you for having us come out and I closed my portfolio and left without giving him a single thing more.

This is just one of many examples of how people think they know how much something should cost. I was not about to try and overcome his objections because his expectations were way to low and any discounts I could have offered would have been insignificant to him. After that, I learned to ask ahead of time if they have a budget to work with. The responses I get are indicators of whether or not they have a good hold on their finances and to see how much they are willing to spend. Qualifying questions help me to determine how to proceed and when to walk away.

If someone thinks so little of someone else that they are willing to ask for much less, they are just as likely to be as further inconsiderate and complain about the result. The low ballers can have em.

Now I have a question for Russell. Is Wood Rich more durable than Wood Tux! Based upon your previous post, I would have to conclude that Wood Tux does not have the penetration capabilities of Wood Rich. Also, having used both, I would like to know if you would recommend using Wood Rich as a filler for the #1 and #2 holes and Wood Tux for the rest? This of course is on older wood that has the open structure to accept them.

Rod!~

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rod

Like I said, the higher the solids the more durable the finish.

The real difference is in application. Wood-Tux will always cover in 1 coat on any type of dry wood and will last 3 to 4 years. Woodrich Stain & Seal will usually cover in 1 coat, sometimes takes 2 and will last 2 to 4 years. Woodrich Timber Oil will require at least 2 coats and will last about half as long.

[plainpainter 217]

Thanks for the discussion Rod - it will never cease to amaze me how inconsiderate some people can be. I wonder when they think of what my 'labor' rate should be - they are probably thinking like 21-22 bucks max, which is ok for salary. But do these people honestly think I am going to pay for advertizing out of that 22 bucks? Or pay for louisville ladders out of that 22 bucks? Or 22 thousand dollar van - is that coming out of my 22 bucks an hour labor? What about the fax, commercial storage, van repairs, pressure washing equipment, trailers, welding, fax line -does all that come out of that 22 bucks an hour? And not to mention as a business owner - I don't do this for a wage - like any business, isn't there profit to be had? I choose to work for myself as a laborer - but I could opt to pay someone else to do the labor and make profit on top of that person. I wonder how about liability insurace - and oh yes, when they think how much they're willing to spend - did they factor workman comp rates on top of that?

Anyway just commiserating - one time this cop told me how he 'seals' the deal when making DUI arrests. He has an index card and draws a line and at the endpoints he lables - totally sober - and - totally drunk. And then puts a mid-point. And asks people where they feel they are on that line - and out of guilty conscience they pick somewhere near the mid-point and sometimes on the side of 'totally' drunk - and that nabs 'em court everytime for DUI. I am thinking of doing the same thing for estimates - like make up a slide rule with adjustable pricing - and they afix it to a range of 'totaly' cheap - reasonable - 'highway robbery' - just to see what I am dealing with and whether to waist my time or not.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Dan

I'm sure this isn't a new concept to you, I'm just throwing it out there. . .

Part of running a successful business is picking the right customers. It's extremely difficult for any contractor to run a business that delivers on both quality and lowest price. It is difficult to service both types of customers because they require different overhead models. Obviously on any single job if you deliver both the highest quality and the lowest price, your profit will not be substantial or sustaining.

If you want to be successful and always be the lowest bid, you've got to run lean and mean. That includes controlling cost at every turn. If you want to be successful and always offer the highest quality you have to invest in excellence and charge accordingly. That includes higher material and equipment costs and many other overhead items the budget contractor doesn't have.

There are many ways, as a contractor, to wind up working for the wrong customer. It's also easy to waste a bunch of valuable time estimating jobs that you don't want and probably won't get. The best way to minimize this risk is to prescreen your customers on first contact.

If you want to offer the highest quality and screen out those customers that are only looking for the lowest price, imagine yourself as the painter in the following phone call.

-----------

Mrs. Smith - "I'm calling to get an estimate for painting my ________."

Painter - "Well, Mrs. Smith, there's a lot that goes into estimating a job like that." "The key to any quality painting job is in the surface preparation." "You do want your _______ to look beautiful right Mrs. Smith?"

Mrs. Smith - "Uh, yeah?"

Painter - "Ok, good" "The final cost varies based on the amount of time and labor that goes into the prep work." "I'm happy to come out and spend some time with you preparing an estimate, of coarse, we only offer quality service so it will certainly not be the lowest bid you receive" "Mrs. Smith, were you looking for the lowest price, or a higher quality experience?"

Mrs. Smith -

Case 1. "I'm on a pretty tight budget, my husband and I were going to do it ourselves because my sisters first husbands gardener is having a party for his son's soccer team that was supposed to be held at the field but they had some kind of trouble with the sprinkler system so now we are having it HERE and I was going to have everyone put their jackets in the _______room." "We looked at the paint we want at the store but we were in my car and my husband says I should have gotten the SUV because we cant haul anything in my car, but anyway if you do the job, you can just pick up our paint there because we have a charge account."

Case 2. "Well, I've had a bad experience with a painter before." "He promised me this great deal and all that I received was a great deal of paint, slopped all over everything." "I certainly understand that you get what you pay for." "I'm still going to ask for another bid or two, but I would like you to take a look at it for me."

Painter -

Response 1. "Wow Mrs. Smith, sounds like you've got a lot on your plate." "That's great, do you have a pen?" "I am going to give you the phone number of a company that I think is going to be able to take care of your needs." "You can reach them at ______________."

Response 2. "Mrs. Smith, you sound like just the type of customer that we enjoy servicing." "I am going to come out to bid this job personally." "It's great when we're able to walk a way from a job knowing we did the absolute best work we could, rather than the best the budget would allow for."

-----------------

In both case 1 and case 2 you did your best to give the customer what they want. You have also eliminated the job that offers you very little chance at success.

There is no guarantee that you will get the contract for case 2, however if you do, you know that you are going to be able to charge the appropriate amount for the level of quality that you deliver.

There are a lot more customers who are shopping for price over quality. They drive the market for low-ballers. Competition is fierce and quality suffers.

If you are dedicated to quality you will find a smaller market that is willing to pay for excellence. The good news. . .It's much harder for customers in this market to find the quality they desire. The great thing is the higher your skill level, the fewer true competitors you will have.

When you are selling on quality, the guy that comes in at half of your bid isn't going to get the job. If a guy comes in right around your price and gets the job, chances are he won it on presentation.

If you can't compete with the splash and dash, lowballing, "I'll paint you toenails if the moneys right" companies, stop going out on their bids. Stop marketing to their customers and most important, stop competing with them. If you know you can't win, why set yourself up to loose?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I am one to practice the cutting off the problem before it gets to that point.

Another example was neighbor of a referral was talking to me and trying to make me feel the referring customer had a big problem with me (not according to our interaction) but he tried to put me in between them and made up stuff and then tried to get me to cut my price. He says "your charging 1320.00 for this job and if I take the coupon <$25.00> that makes it 1295.00. Just make it an even 1000.00 and I'll give you the work." To which I replied."I'm sorry, but my costs are not flexible like that. I don't get to negotiate them like I understand your culture is used to doing but my costs are pretty much set. You pay my price and I'll do the work. I'll give you some time to think about it and I'll show myself out. Thank you."

Of course he never called again and he still hasn't done anything about it (he was calling me late in the season anyway, spring will tell) and yet he has to look at his neighbors deck and the one next to it and the other neighbor across the street all of which we did and still look great today. (checked recently on a drive-by to a house a few doors down when doing a post-con cleanup)

It may be a sore situation for you if you live in a smaller population town where the price has been skewed way too low for the public to readily accept, I don't know but just thinking its a possibility for you north of boston.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

Rod when you wrote "...to negotiate them like I understand your culture is used..." I immediately thought of my experiences with Indian {hindu} people - I am curious if that was indeed what that person was - I know it's so stereotypical, but it's happened to often to me and others not to discount it. It's to the point I hear their accent, and I start thinking it will be an absolute waste of my time to give them an estimate.

I do live in a small suburb, but very wealthy - my one customer has two homes on Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard, a house up on the Maine Coast and yet another vacation home in Hawaii - When I presented him with an estimate to clean and stain his 450 sq foot deck with two 10 step stairways and well over 90 feet of railing - for $900 he wanted to shoot me dead!

[PressurePros 248]

There are two reasons a customer won't hire you.

1) They cannot afford your service.

2) They do not see the value in your service.

A third reason may be that they just don't like you but 95% of the time its numbers one and two. If you are marketing correctly, number one is eliminated.

If a multi millionaire blinks twice at paying for a $900 service its time to completely revamp your sales presentation.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

#3 should be that they are deluded and hopeful to strike a deal.

Some customers play the field and no marketing campaign will totally eliminate the happenstance of those who are looking to get a reputable company without paying top dollar. This was my example above of a referral who thought he could interject things and create a hand to win him a better price. I didn't budge.

Marketing is the first part, the second is qualifying and the third is sales (presentation, knowledge and closing technique) Many use the Dale Carnegie sales method, we use Sandler consultative sales methods. The first (when I learned it) was high pressure, the second is not.

Daniel,

Yes, he was of middle eastern decent and relatively new to the country. They do business in a negotiating framework most of the time. The women are just as good at it if not more so. lol Most will not do business with anyone who demonstrates such a high inflexibility in their pricing but that also indicates to me (another subject on why their economy is not favorable) but why they do not appreciate others business.

Gotta head out for an appointment, will 'clickety-clak' more later.

Rod!~

[PressurePros 248]

Good post, Rod. I have quite a few customers of Middle Eastern decent and you bring up a valid point. Its not that they are cheaper per se, but their culture dictates negotiation. It helps to know that going in. I don't neccesarily agree that you still cannot win the sale if you are inflexible on price. I find I have to spend a little longer closing a sale with someone from differring culture. For instance, many countries value education. I have had to sit down with many people and let them know I chose this business, it didn't choose me because I am an uneducated hack.

Again, it comes down to value. Each customer's perception of value is different. Sales is about exploration. If you ask the right questions, so many objections can be overcome before they leave the customer's mouth.

This thread has gotten off topic.. sorry about that Dan.

[plainpainter 217]

That's ok Ken - I like the information - lot of theory, even though I have degrees in physics and mathematics - I find it so hard to figure out how to effectively sell a service to homeowners. Not that I am going to stop trying to figure out - as it seems that effective sales technique works with a lot of you guys here. But I understand about having to revamp my sales technique - but where do you begin to even approach someone who is a millionaire - when they gawk at $900 - and threaten to do it themselves at that price? How much education and sales technique will turn someone like that around - especially since I had already stained the deck for them before. My thoughts are that I do quality work - and some clients who go with my services end up price-shopping when they need those services again in the future. And if they aren't sold on me - even after I had done work for them in the past - then I feel that is a battle I have lost. To me the proof is in the pudding - if I have already done work for them, and they still aren't sold on me for future work, there's little to nothing I can do. The only thing that works - is you have to let them go with the competition and suffer a little - before they realize what they had.

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, I'm sending out a powerpoint presentation this weekend to all of the guys that attended St Louis. I'll put you on my list. There are definitive actions you must take to maintain your customer database.

As far as your guy.. I again would have to resort back to the bill of goods he was being offered. He didn't see the value of exchanging $900 for what you were offering. Its hard for me to quantify his objection without having met you or him. He probably looked down on you for your chosen profession. I deal with that often. The reality is he called you, so he wanted the work done.

The issue over price with a majority of people is that they just don't realize what things cost. The personalized part of a sales presentation should encompass getting to know a bit about your customer. Phone prequalification will let you know whether the person is willing to pay for quality work.

I could write a book here (and often have) on the topic of sales psychology and technique. I doubt I would be writing anything that hasn't been written before. Check out the Powerpoint thing and if you have comments you can feel free to call me. I'll reciprocate by picking your brain on chemistry.

[plainpainter 217]

Ken - deal. Although my interest in chemistry is new - I hated chemistry in high school - I opted out by going into physics.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Wow, a millionaire that won't fork over 900.00! Must be house poor.

I have seen that around here too. Those who want to live the stature of being rich and don't have a thing in any rooms besides the kitchen, living room and bedrooms. The rest is sparse and mostly without so much as drapes in some cases. I give them the benefit of the doubt though that they may be coming into money or are just frugal spenders. Truth be told at the bottom line and the expressions on their faces would tip their hand for a poker player to see.

Body language has a bit to tell too. Ever notice that once the price is known; the client sits back and folds their arms? Or one of the couple gets up and leaves the room?

They have been sold but the price is out of their budget. That is disappointment you see.

Anyway, I will not take this any further off topic and get back to the one at hand.

pi r2 = WTW. Jk.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Rod posted:

Ever notice that once the price is known; the client sits back and folds their arms? Or one of the couple gets up and leaves the room?

They have been sold but the price is out of their budget. That is disappointment you see.

That is great stuff. Seen it often, never had the experience/empathy to put it into words or conscious thought. Good post. TGS keeps giving...

[James 624]

If they can't afford it. I tell them to save their money and have it done the next year. Because they know it's better to have their deck under my care. This works some time's.

Look the best way to get wood jobs is to have a relationships with Deckbuilder's and builders. Today I was fed two Ipe decks who were expecting my call. Sold before I called. One owner said she already gave my number to her girl freind who had an Ipe deck built on the shore. I have changed the name of Ipe' to Upe' .

If you are fed 20 new decks a year for five years that's 100 decks under your care!! But you have to know your stuff because people who build new high end decks have had terrible times in the past. Even though that is an issue the care of a new deck isn't thought of until after it's built ?

[RPetry 564]

Another good post. Diamond Jim says:

But you have to know your stuff because people who build new high end decks have had terrible times in the past.

Butchers are everywhere, craftsmen are rare. Be a craftsman if your market allows it. It pays dividends.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Butchers are everywhere, craftsmen are rare. Be a craftsman if your market allows it. It pays dividends.

That's a unique way to put it Rick. I like it.

Rod!~