Wood Tux

[Mike W 14]

Another newbie question. I was wondering if there was a way to adjust the tint of WTW? I could not find the info on extreme solutions. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We have seen instances where a product - any product - will only last a year (or less depending), but we all know what instances those are...new wood, or hard wood. As for other instances, we have seen some finishes out perform others, we have seen some colors look better than others, and much of this seems to depend also on climate and exposure as well. Preparation of the surface will also effect the longevity.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

James - do you truly never ever ever have to rip readyseal off a deck ever again? What if you have customers that don't sign up for maintenance but give you a call back like in 3-4 years after the first time you restored their deck - or even 5 years - would it still just be an application coat - or would you then have to strip?

[dsp powerwash 14]

Rick, to clarify russell said maintenance coat. you say ready seal is a 2 year product at which time it needs to be redone not maintained. although i know it is much quicker to redo and i understand this could be considered maitenance. I think russell means maitenance coats which to me are a light wash and recoat of horizontals , and maybe a touchup of the rails.what he is saying is that at 2 years a lot of positive dry prducts are to worn and patchy looking to maintain, and must be stripped and redone. my opipion is that products like ready seal and bakers twp 500 and 200 series are the best at recoating or maintaining at anytime. where a product like woodtux can be maintained but it takes a little knowledge and finesse, and you have to do it within a window where the product is worn but not to worn. actually ready seal can be maintained at 1 yr as jim does and woodtux probably cant.not taking sides just trying to clarify. frank ,dsp powerwash

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick,

My answer would be, any finish that is applied on a job that includes a yearly maintenance contract. If no finish requires annual maintenance, what is it you are saying about those contractors who offer annual maintenance contracts?

You keep throwing around the words Inaccurate and Misleading but the best I can tell your only proof is your opinion. You are taking what I said out of context to make your point. I have no problem with you attacking our products, this is an open discussion board. When you challenge my personal integrity, you better stand ready to back it up.

If you would like to have an honest discussion, begin by telling me your definition of a "premium wood stain" Then, if you name a specific product, I'll give you a direct comparison.

Short of that, this amounts to a he said she said debate that doesn't benefit anyone.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

I assume we both speak, read, write, and hopefully comprehend the English language. What is painfully clear is that we interpret and retain what we have read differently. I tend to take writing somewhat literally, unless it is made in obvious jest. If I have mistaken your intent in your quoted statements, my fault and my sincere apologies.

There is no need to repost your statement already quoted twice. Read it literally, and if you still do not understand my prior replies, fine. Let that dog lie.

However, so you have no illusions of ill will, the following are a few responses to your above post. You say:

I have no problem with you attacking our products...

Forgive me Russell, but where the frick did I attack ESI products? Or anywhere on TGS in the nearly 4 years that I have been a member. Quite the contrary, please read... I stated the following:

Look, ESI's WTW may be the best thing since the proverbial sliced bread.

Yet further on in the same post, I stated:

But I am sure that it is a good product that can stand on its own merits.

Kindly point out my "attacks" on WTW or any ESI product. I am confident ESI makes fine products. The fact that I do not currently use them does not mean I'm "against" them.

Another response. You ask :

If you would like to have an honest discussion, begin by telling me your definition of a "premium wood stain" Then, if you name a specific product, I'll give you a direct comparison.

Unless the moderator(s) deleted my original post, I thought I did just that. Let me see here, ah yes, as follows:

But name one premium, specialty exterior wood stain that requires yearly maintenance, at least here in the northeast U.S. Baker's Gray Away?, Ready Seal?, Woodrich?

Yet further on for good measure:

RS is a two year stain. Baker's Gray Away is a two year stain. I would assume Woodrich is a two year stain.

Either I'm writing with digital invisible ink or you are responding without so much as reading my posts.

Lastly, my apologies if you truly believe I have questioned your personal integrity. Although you and I have never met in person, we have had some long conversations, both intense, and good, in the past. We might not be "friends" in the traditional sense of the word, but more like respectful colleagues.

What my intent has been on this thread is to question yours, and others, marketing, and in some cases behavioral tactics. Bear with me, its time to clear the air, and much overdue. So far, I, and maybe others have let sleeping dogs lie. One caveat, I am only speaking as Rick Petry. Others may agree or disagree and chime in as warranted. As you so aptly put, it is an open discussion board.

This all kind of started when Beth & Rod were product distributors. ESI was their primary chemicals supplier and the original WT was their, if I remember correctly, only stain that they sold through distribution. Naturally, and more power to them, they used TGS to market their wares. Fine, no foul, its their site and thats great marketing.

With time and efforts, new and some old time contractors tried the product. TGS built a base of customers for ESI and I'm sure you are grateful. Some of us relative old timers purchased some stain, and went back to our old tried and true ways. Others, and newer contractors in the business continued on with WT and eventually WTW. All fine and good. Competition and new ideas in products is one factor in what makes our economy great.

But the condescending, in your face, "I'm making more money than you" posts since then from some of WTW contractors and you as ESI, has been irritating in the least, and at times, more than disingenuous. Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment.

Believe it or not, this board generates a bit business for me. I have gotten and will continue to get real, paying, fine customers off this site. These customers find my little business by reading this stuff. It has only happened once thus far, but when you get a misinformed, confused, and befuddled customer questioning my business during a sales call, you can imagine that I might be just a little *issed.

How about the newbies? Theres a ton of 'em. They get fed a lot of product marketing misinformation here and slop on some WTW without having a clue how to prep wood or apply an admittedly difficult product. This is not only bad for ESI, but reflects on this fledgling industy as a whole. They don't even know what a pigment is!

And, while I'm on a roll, the rain. Those of you that take great glee in kicking others when the weather is sour and "sticking it" to others should be ashamed. Take stock in what you post and how you affect others.

Four examples, believe them or not. No names, no faces.

A very good contractor in my area has been specializing in exterior wood restoration for more than a decade, after being a painting contractor for many years. He uses, and continues to use, a paraffinic oil stain.

Last summer I attended and contributed to a mini "summit" on wood restoration standards. The host of this meeting, probably the longest in business contractor I have ever met, recently switched his product line to a paraffinic oil. Another attendee at that meeting, who started his business in North Dakota of all places, has expanded with operations throughout the Chicago area. He has been using a paraffinic oil stain for years.

I correspond at times with a retired wood restoration contractor in the Southwest. He recently sold his business. At that time he had built up 28 separate locations around the US that specialized in exterior wood restoration. Near the end of his no less than "wood empire", he switched all of these locations to a paraffinic oil stain.

ESI manufactures a paraffinic oil stain. I would assume you do not produce and distribute inferior products.

These examples are not meant to convince anyone that RS or Wooodrich or Baker's or TWP is superior or better than ESI's WTW or any other stain. It is only to show that in this business, as in any others, there are numerous ways to skin a cat.

Look Russell, WTW may be the greatest stain in history for contractors and customers. In all aspects, I do not think that anyone knows. Claims are fine but the testing of time will tell. I am not so stupid as to deny the benefits of innovation, but I believe that until proven, be a bit sceptical, and bide your time. Too may product "innovations" in the immediate past have become nightmares and pulled from the market. Comes with getting old.

I promise to be the first in line when and if WTW or any other new product proves its stuff. But until then, everyone, please show some decorum and charity to your fellow contractors.

_________________________________________________

As a side note for any newbies or consumers. There is a winter plague in this business. Its called stir crazy and watching your business account balances decend. March madness, woodies gone wild, call it what you will. We always have these spats. Its normal.

Check out last year's Great Bleach Debate here on TGS. Now that was a hoot and a true classic. Contractors yelling at each other, epitaths thrown left and right, inuendos and nonsense galore. Please believe that this is calm and refined in comparison.

For anyone, especially those going to ACR this weekend, I'd be honored and pleased to meet each and everyone of you, especially fellow woodies. We are a breed apart, and just love our craft. And we all try our best to do the finest work possible.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Just remember that I double dog dared you to wear that costume this weekend....I'll up that right here to the triple dog dare! See you Saturday morning bright eyed and bushy tailed!

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

Long post.....but I am sure through enough feedback and time we will know these different products for what they are and not for what is promised. In the end we all choose different business models and choose quality products that enhance our business model - and we eventually gravitate towards the best products through trial and error. Lets leave Russell alone - its getting to be soon if wtw indeed will beat the competition or not. My film forming stains like cabots, california, etc. Need another coat after one year of my initial restoration of my decks. Did I do a bad job? I don't know - it seems after that they do pretty well and last longer and longer. From what I am understanding - if Woodtux is a 4-year product on the horizontals, that we should schedule a maintenance coating after the 2 year mark - correct? Or three year mark if it's shady and not much abuse. Other than my experience after ther first year of restoration - these time frames are pretty much what I go by now with the products I use. I envision wtw to be a product that most my customers will have me come in and do - and then neglect it for like 4-5 years - at which point I will be back to strip, neutralize and reapply. But other than that I don't see it being all that much better than what I already use - other than perhaps the first year deal.

I think for customers that want us to come back every single year and clean and reapply an oil - we should use paraffinic stains for them - it makes more sense, the stuff won't keep stacking on top of itself. Customers that want a longer time before we come back can go with a film-forming stain - that will need to 'etched' at the 2 year mark with a light reapplication, with the caveat that after 3 or so coats - it will need an expensive strip. Maybe customers like that should go with woodrich. And then the customers who think deck staining is a once in a lifetime good for ever kind of thing - give them wtw, and then advertize to the new inhabitants 5-7 years later to restore their deck. Tons of different models you can go by. Most people I come across - which are my painting customers - never ever think about down the road, and what is the proper maintenance. If people did that - there wouldn't be all those blacker than night decks out there.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

That was one heck of a dissertation Rick!

Seems there is a bit of tension on one side or the other so let's sit back and read thoroughly. Think about it, then make your posts with respect and polite regard. All is well so far and may the discussion remain productive.

Next!

Rod!~

[James 625]

Very well put Ricky. Dan, call me some time or come to Ct when I get Bizzy ?

[plainpainter 217]

You need help James? I could use some work - how much are you paying?

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

You have me dancing around a bit, but I'm not trying to avoid your question.

Please understand that as a manufacturer, I'm not afforded the same freedoms as you. If I mention another product by name, I've pretty well got to stick to what is on their label, literature, etc. If you ask me about a specific product, I can give you a direct comparison.

Before I got involved in manufacturing, I was a full time restoration contractor for many years. Granted, a lot has changed in the coatings industry since then with new VOC regulations and increasing oil prices. I've still got a good bit of personal experience to fall back on.

Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet, so I had to learn about products through trial and error. If it was on the shelf in the 90's I've probably tried it. My badge of honor was my Wolmans' certification.

I was a die hard TWP fan. I sold my customers TWP Cedar 101 and that was about the only thing I would apply. I used the product every day and I knew what to expect from it in almost every situation. In other words, I knew it's limitations, and I also understood how to optimize it's effectiveness.

I learned about the benefits of paraffinic oil stains during the time I was developing cleaners and strippers in the mid to late 90's I switched over to Ready Seal when I began subcontracting most of our work. The obvious advantage was the ease of use. The first stain formulation we began working on was a paraffinic base. It used to be called Wood-Tux DMC now we sell it in our online store as Woodrich Brand Timber Oil.

I started my wood restoration career in Hotlanta, then I moved to Missouri. Our wood restoration season is about 8 months long if you go by temperature. It's about 6 months long if you go by rain. It was obvious that we had to do something about the wood moisture content issue. The WET technology that we use in Wood-Tux does not work in a true paraffinic base, it requires a resin.

When we formulated Wood-Tux, I didn't abandon paraffinic formulations. They are two entirely different animals. In many cases, the best prescription for aged or neglected wood may be a combination of both.

We market or sell Wood-Tux so much because it needs it. As you said, to most people, especially on the net, it's a new concept. When I talk about the advantage of being able to stay on schedule through the rainy season my only intention is to let contractors know there is solution. I don't mean to pour salt into a wound.

As far as "making more money. . .," the only real quantifiable way Wood-Tux will make you more money is the days you don't loose to rain. It's less expensive to use gallon for gallon than a paraffinic based formula on dry wood, but we're only talking pennies per square foot. For example Wood-Tux easily covers 200 square feet per gallon while Woodrich Brand Timber Oil cover about 150 or less. Even though the Timber Oil is less per pail, at the end of the day it costs more (in material) to apply.

Beyond that, what I am talking about is a business model. You could choose any "quality" finish and do the same thing. If you know the strengths and limitations of any good product you can offer high quality service and results. You can cater to those who seek quality rather than those who are on a budget.

I know I've used this line before. . "A master can make music with a child's toy while the beginner will blame the instrument."

Skill and knowledge are the key.

I understand that you like to work with paraffinic stains. When you know how to apply them they provide excellent protection for the wood. I invite you to try our Woodrich Brand Timber Oil, I think you would be impressed by the coverage due to the high pigment solids.

Now when you talk about the new guys, you get my attention. I come here to help the new guys and obviously, promote our products. I don't presume to think that I'm teaching the veterans anything. Some try our products and some don't. It's not my intention to misinform anyone.

The message that I bring to TGS is a reflection of what I hear all day talking on the phone. One of the most common things that I hear is "I tried "x" finish and it barely lasted a year and when I went back to touch it up, most of the finish came off when I washed it" the other is "I have so many decks washed and it keeps raining and I can't get anything stained to collect any money."

There is no doubt that when applied correctly, most finishes will last over a year. It's more profitable for me to invest my time in teaching contractors how to use our products than trouble shoot what they are currently using. There is nothing stopping other manufacturers from visiting these boards and helping contractors become more efficient in the use of their products.

Frankly, I would enjoy an open debate. I consider ESI and myself to be reserved when it comes to our product claims. There are a few products out on the market that have more money in marketing than they do in the pail.

Like you said about the cat, there's no reason either of us is wrong. If you really want to get into a head to head about products, a real apples to apples sort of thing, I'll come have lunch with you, but you have to promise to walk away with a free pail of Woodrich Brand Timber Oil. Also, I believe protocol dictates I should pick up the tab.

[RPetry 564]

Russell,

A fine, well written reply and post. Come on man, give me a big virtual hug! Ah, thats better. See outsiders, woodies can be one big diverse family. Like any family we have our spats, disagreements, arguments, etc. But at the end of the day we can all sit at the dinner table in peace and contentment.

Can't you just feel the love gushing over the wire and beaming through your monitor? Now this is just great. Makes me proud to be a woodie!

Spring is just around the corner. Calls are coming in and orders are building up. Its that magic time of calm before the storm. And here we all repose in that warm, cozy glow of wood restorer brotherhood. What a wonderful moment!

Of course next week we'll all be at each other's throats again! But hey, we can all have some fun with a bit of roughhousing. And there is and will continue to be some valuable information shared by all.

[jeffex11 121]

very interesting thread!! This is a pivital year for me as I am in search of a new stain to market. RPety , what stain do you use? My business thrived on Sherwin Williams UV Sunblock Cedar for 10 years. The new Deckscapes is a severe dissapointment. My business model found success in providing a 2-3 year repeat customer that totally thrived on referrals. We also have a landscape business for diversification. I have been at the deck business for 16 years and have tried many products over the years but this year is a toss up.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jeff,

Are you going to ACR this weekend?

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Jeffex11,

Welcome to the board. You have been restoring exterior wood for 16 years? *ell man, you may be the most senior member here! There is a lot of information on various stains here and I recall a poll somewhere on this site that spelled out in numbers stain brand use.

I, and many others, use Ready Seal stains. Reasons are many and more information can be gained at my still in development website, Windsor WoodCare - Wood restoration If you want to see photos of various colors on different species of wood, look through the photo galleries.

Many quality contractors here use Wood Tux Wet stains. These are manufactured by Extreme Solutions, Inc. and their website is accessible via banner ad on the home page of this site.

[James 625]

Dan , that's if want to see RS. I have decks ten years old.

[plainpainter 217]

James - sure, it's just that I would have to find somewhere cheap to stay - you're on the other side of Hartford. That would be a real haul for a day trip - or maybe I am a whimp.

[James 625]

Your a wimp!I have some work on the Massoftwoships boarder we'll see.

[jeffex11 121]

thanks for the replys!nice site Rpety & Beth n Rod nice site as well!! I can't make it to the Acr but thanks for the invite. I must tell you all I have been doing power washing for 16 yrs as well as holding down a full time job so I am not a big opperation. My wife and I started doing this type of work as a side business so she could be a stay at home Mom. I have used many products over the years in searching for something good for my schedule and my customers satisfaction and as I said this year is up in the air . Many of my customers are loyal repeat jobs every 2-3 years and they sell for me. The phone just starts ringing and we handle our small niche market. When I retire is a few years from the full time gig I want to go big but I still like to keep up with the new products and innovative methods. DECK DOCTOR PRESSURE WASHING

[PressurePros 249]

Good morning, Jeff. Someone gave me this advice and it was good advice so I am going to pass this on. On your website the very first link takes you to a different site. From a marketing standpoint that may be a bad idea. Your goal with your website should be to prequalify and sell. People are both easily distracted and click happy. Just a heads up, please pardon the unsolicited advice.

PS: Just tried to go back to check your page further and the site is down.

[jeffex11 121]

thanks for the heads up!! it just won't link off this site anymore I guess

[PressurePros 249]

No I mean your website was down.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Touche! It lasts too long. I have customer's decks I haven't touched in three years other than a quick cleaning. Thats not very profitable ;-)

The way we look at that, is the customers are more satisfied because the product actually performs as stated (that alone is amazing) and also you have more time to get lots of new customers who in 3 years will repeat.

We do have folks who love it so much that after a year they want a little refresher cleaning and touch up...

We do have folks who want it at the two year mark.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Beth, You just had to ttt this thread didn't you? Which are you refering to..RS? WTW, or? :)

Do I dare mention that I read this whole thread and never did hear the brands that don't compare after a year or two in. Am a bit depressed over it actually but I understand in a business sense why it is not best for a manufacture to be name specific on known lesser competitors.

Is always best to speak of your assets and what you can do rather than what others can't. Maybe I would have felt better about this thread if Russell could have just mentioned firstly only how long he expects his product to last or had only used his secondary rebutal language of relating his product into the "quality" group. I am much more comfortable with the straight facts on how something lasts on it's own merits.

I admire how both Rick and Russell turned to accentuating their stuff in their last posts and being professionals of great charactor...that was awesome luv :)

I'll leave a couple questions I have for a new topic since this thread is or should have been specific to the wood tux..

[Russell Cissell 65]

Maybe I would have felt better about this thread if Russell could have just mentioned firstly only how long he expects his product to last or had only used his secondary rebutal language of relating his product into the "quality" group. I am much more comfortable with the straight facts on how something lasts on it's own merits.

I'll leave a couple questions I have for a new topic since this thread is or should have been specific to the wood tux..

You can find information you need about product performance on our website at www.esproducts.net.

If you would like more detailed information about the products, you can call me direct at 636-288-8512

There is too much liability as a manufacturer to mention other products by name. I can however give you a direct comparison if you ask, and if it can be backed up with facts.

It is difficult to discuss the assets of a product on an open BBS where no one is held to fact. Regardless of what you see posted (mostly by those who have never actually seen/used Wood-Tux) the following are the facts.

You can expect 1 coat coverage on dry or damp wood.

You should apply 2 coats if the wood is soaking wet.

The spread rate should be 200 square feet per gallon (or more). Any less and you are over applying except in very rare cases.

Wood-Tux does not need to be cut with anything.

The finish will look good on most decks 4 years if you do nothing else to it.

Maintenance should be done every 2 years on horizontals and as needed on verticals.

Wood-Tux is an oil based penetrating sealer that does not form a film (when applied as directed)

The only way to get Wood-Tux to form a film is with multiple wet on dry coats or drastic over application neither of which are recommended.

Wood-Tux is not "food" for mold and mildew. If you apply Wood-Tux to a moldy board, it will kill the mold. There is the same level of anti-microbial in Wood-Tux as any quality 30 year exterior paint.

You will find Wood-Tux extremely easy to apply if you have ever worked with any other sealer.

Wood-Tux can easily be removed when it is new with HD-80, when it is aged (over 1 year) it can be removed with full strength EFC-38.

I am more than happy to answer any questions you have.