Inside 911

[Jeff 232]

Anybody watch National Geographics show "Inside 911" I've seen it 2 times already and I always when there on watch shows of 911. I just get so mad! Are we much safer today and I just wonder why we took a lot of our troops off chasing Bin Laden

Radical Clerics..............CIA kill those who speak to kill us. You know they are going to get us again, it could be in 10 days or 10 years, but they get us

Damn I hate these peice of crap radical Islam or what ever you want to call them. Hell we let every Illegal in over the borders for cheap labor , guess were the radicals will come in if they want. Hell we'll let them cash a check at Bank of America so they can buy bomb making stuff and it will be a phony ID. Some times I think we are just doomed, I pray not

Nuke em all and lets finish it now

Sorry for the rant 911 shows really get to me. God Bless all the 911 familys

[racechaser 64]

I don't believe in war for any reason and that is the part you do not get. Trying to convince me on the contrary is a waste of time.

Rod!~

You don't believe in war for ANY reason?? It's your right and I'm not knocking you, I'm just surprised to hear that from you.

Scott

[PWkid 79]

Rod , in your mind we should be a third world country that shakes like a church mouse in the corner. I would like to see how successful your business would be in a third world country. Maybe you would like living that way but not me! I would hope you misquoted yourself. War is not a pretty thing but it is neccessary for a strong country to survive.

[Deck Guy 14]

I'm too drunk to comment, but not too drunk to read...

Jeff, you win. I'll post some simple thoughts tomorrow.

[squirtgun 122]

Rod , in your mind we should be a third world country that shakes like a church mouse in the corner. I would like to see how successful your business would be in a third world country. Maybe you would like living that way but not me! I would hope you misquoted yourself. War is not a pretty thing but it is neccessary for a strong country to survive.

And all the bleeding heart liberals will be laughing all the way to the bank when the administration starts drawing down the troop number's.War stimulates the economy.

You won't hear a bad word about the war when they are riding on the money train to the bank.

I'm so sick of hearing the whining about the war in Iraq.After 9/11 (not 911 that's the emergency number)the same bleeding hearts demanded action against terror.Bush took the fight to them and because wars cost money and lives now they want out.No one forced any soldier to enlist they do it voluntarily with pride and honor.They were also fully aware that they could go to war and could die and they still enlisted.

[PLD 14]

The Victim here is someone who is being misled

You nailed it. With the exception of Rod, the whole world is full of nothing but a bunch of mindless idiots incapable of determining truth from fiction. Thank God they have you to think for them...

I don't believe in war for any reason and that is the part you do not get. Trying to convince me on the contrary is a waste of time.

I can't get it if you didn't say it. Now that you have managed to get it out, I can respect your opinion in that regard. But, if you are against war, then be against war. All the other BS about stupid soldiers, inflated death tolls, etc. just makes you look like another mindless babbling liberal.

[Jeff 232]

[Jeff 232]

We are in those places also. In my opinion we should be anywhere there is terrorism being practiced.Anyone wearing Hamas cloaks should be shot on sight.Anyone holding a firearm in palestine(where it is illegal) should be shot on sight for violating the law.

We dont have wars like in Iraq going on in all the other countries. I do agreee they all should be shot but it isnt realistic is it. I know, to bad we cant kill them

How can you say that when they shot at our planes every day while flying in the "no fly zone" protecting the Iraqi citizens from Sadaam.

Yet you want to NUKE EM ALL!!!

they did not shot at our planes everyday and over all we had Saddam contained. He put up a good front buy building castles but he didnt have WMD's, he was struggling. My point with the Iraq war and you can turn it around how you would like is we could of waited or gone after him covertly and continued going after Bin Laden. We dropped the ball by not getting Bin Laden

No matter what any of you say, we pulled a majority of our troops out of Afganastan and left Bin 911 Laden free

Protect the Iraq citizens, WHY do we have to protect everybody? we dont, theres people dieing and being murdered in many countries and we dont do a thing, we cannot be the police men of the world, super power or not if we go into countries all the time its going to breed resentment and create many problem with the more countries we go into, just like it has now in the middle east and Iraq

Give me a break get real, if you really took that statement NUKE THEM ALL totally seriously, I guess you didnt get the sarcasm. Funny

Now maybe we should gladly take on that job since President A's sole mission is to wipe Israel off the map because they don't have a right to live.

You know whats funny is, I'd like to wipe all these A holes off the face of the map but we cant there is not enough military to do it. Our military is strained now, we didnt even have armor on humvees, soldiers families had to send money to buy the armor, our goverment sent our troop s wit out some of the proper equipment

We have a president that wont ask the american people to sacrifice anything. He tried to make this war in Iraq sound like it was going to be a cake walk and it backfired he now has our soldiers doing tour after tour, National gaurdsmen tour after tour. Tanks are piled up waiting for parts, the prez rather give tax cuts to the rich then fund the military( Dont blame the dems Bush had 6 years in control with republicans in the house & senate). Oh he says he's for the military and then sends them without the proper stuff. This is the 1st war ever that any president gave tax cuts, we have to fund the war and I'll pay more taxes to give our soldiers EVERYTHING THEY NEED

We may have to go to Iran, but part of the reason we will is because of us taking out that peice a crap saddam, the one country that helped keep Iran in check.

Bush didn't go all the way to Baghdad because the UN didn't give him permission in the resolution. His ONLY mandate was to drive Iraq from kuwait.

Bush Sr was weighing the option of going in he had his general make plans up and he decided, not the UN he decided not to go in, because as he said, we would have had to occupy the country for years. So did the present Bush listen to the UN. With or without is what Bush said I think, well he's proven you cant go it alone, we have 97% of the troops in Iraq must countries didnt go with us and many since have left and a good part of the reason is GW's poor planning The hawks of GW admin wanted to go even thou several in his admin didnt want to go.

99.99% of the people do feel that way. Only the Sunni muslims, who lost their dictator and privelege of running the contry even though they were the minority, really are upset over the events. A couple of thousand insurgents, most from other countries, are comitted to killing themselves and others to get their way.

Your crazy 99.99% of iraq citizens dont want us there. Well over half said they want us dead. If 99.99% wanted us there we would have already won this war and our men would be home. We have sunnis, shites and many other trying to kill us or at last they want us out and then there are many who want us there to be their policemen

If not now then when?? Did he need to violate 30 UN resolutions?? Did he need to actually kill one of our pilots he was shooting at?

After we got Bin Laden would of been nice

Lies or bad intelligence? There is a difference. Clinton stripped the CIA of their power of intelligence gathering.

Lies & bad intelligence, both

Clinton was useless on terrorism, he should of got Bin Laden a long time ago. I dont recall stripping the CIA of their powers but I wouldnt be surprised. clinton was weak in many areas, I will totally agree with you on that

I'm sorry for being ignorant about current events sometimes. Would you please give me the date we left Afghanistan so I can be sure to give my children correct information when we get to that in school.

It was shortly before we went to Iraq. Do you remember we had over 100,000 troops in Afganastan and then we pulled out over 80% of the troops. Tell your kids about Bin Laden you remember him 911 he caused it and we still dont have him and most of Afganastan is out of our control, all we have control of is Kabul

One thing we can agree on

Yay we agree. But why has bush said we are going to do all these things for homeland security and not done them

The barracks in Saudi Arabia that housed our soldiers and their families, the simultaneous bombings of the African emabassies, the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, the attack on USS Cole and others I am probably forgetting all occured under Clinton's watch. All these basically went without any substantal retalliation. We have not had another attack on US soil since then. Madrida and Brittain have not been so fortunate. I'll bet they are more vigillant about their safety since then.

You mention all these attacks while Clinton was in office, BUT ONLY ONE was on American soil ( Agreed clinton useless) 1993 was the only one in the US. But theres only been the same amount under Bush 911. Everybody always says there hasnt been any more attack in the US since 911 and they say its because Bush is saving us from all these attack. It was years from 1993 attack to 911 are you sureits Bush thats responsible for that. Since you mention all these attacks under Clinton, what about the Iraq that has killed over 3000 of our service men, what about the growing numbers of terrorist since bush has become president, what about our standing in the world, There are more countries and allies that now dont trust us since Bush has been in office, some of Bushes policies are creating more terrorist. So who's worse Clinton or Bush, I dont know neither one of them has gotten BIN LADEN...you remember him 911

Is Bush saving us or hurting us, maybe only history will tell, but I PERSONALLY dont like or trust the man and Im not weak on terror or the military I just dont trust Bush to tell us the truth, I dont trust him to plan or run a war, I just dont trust the man and PERSONALLY I think we are going to find out a lot of negative things about bush in time, Now thats just my personal feeling, its not me as you all say a LIBERAL Talking. I just dont like him because to me he is a proven liar and not a good president

They were here before in greater numbers as previously posted

Yeah I guess when he said that he thought the economy and domestic issues was going to be his biggest concern. I guess the soothsayer failed to tell him America was going to be attacked on our own soil in the greatest way ever. I guess you think he should have been prepared for everything before he made genral statements in a debate.

Its not that the soothsayer failed to tell him. If he had any foreign policy background any clue at all or listened to everybody not just the hawks in his administration, maybe he could of handled this horrible terrorist act better, But Bush wanted to go to Iraq and he did before 911 happened. Collen Powell and many others were trying to tell him this wasnt the time and place to go to Iraq, but what did he do he got rid of anybody that wasnt for his plan on Iraq, he got rid of some very smart people that knew war & foreign policy. We had almost the whole world behind us after 911 and then he started talking all his cowboy **** and basically told all other countries even our allies that its his way and only his way, thats not foriegn policy and now who do we have behind us? Hell even britain has pulled many of their troops

Oh yeah by the way...What do you think Al Gore would have done on 911 besides blasting the terrorists for the bad greenhouse gas emissions released from the burning jet fuel and the plumes sent into the ozone.

I wonder.....

You know you're just plain funny. All you Bush supporters always say us "liberals" just hate anything bush does, but are you all any different with your comments

You know something if Gore was president we might already have BIN LADEN you know the guy who was the one behind 911. We might not have over 3000 dead US soldiers and 100's of british and other troops dead in the middle of a cival war in Iraq, we might have less terrorist, we might not have as many countries not liking us, we might have countries still with us on our side fighting side by side against terrorism, we might have much better homeland security. I WONDER

I'm not weak on terror and yes I hate to say i think we should get out of Iraq, yes 1st I dont think we should have gone there when we did., but since we are there I dont like leaving now then it is a defeat, but sad to say, I think the way things have gone and even adding 20,000 - 30,000 more troops we are being defeated and I think its because of poor planning and knowledge of foreign policy. Do we stay another 2, 3, 5, 10 years and have many more die, for a country that just might not want us there, for a region that hates us, for a middle east thats been killing each other for centuries

We should kill terrorist but i think many poor decisions and a poor president has cost us so much in many ways.

Scott

Scott and others that totally disagree with me I guess we'll just have to disagree. Im done on this subject. I started this because of the INSIDE 911 show i saw, if someone hasnt seen it they should. I think they should show the Towers coming down at least once a week because i do think we sometimes just talk so much BS, we almost forget what happened on 911. I'll never forget and I hope someday we get BInLaden and most of all I wish & pray we can get along with the whole world and put terrorist where they belong....DEAD BURIED . It would be nice if all countries in the world rose against terrorism and wiped it out. I can dream:USA: :USA: :USA: :USA:

Jeff

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Mel,

In one word...no. That is incorrect. At least to me it is and towards anything about me. This thread is about 911 and the supposed reasons why we are at war.

In my "perfect world" people like you or anyone else would be listening without admonition and actually care about what other people have to say when it comes to the position against wasting human life for a BS cause.

These people in middle eastern countries only pose a threat when here. They have no long range nuke capabilities, no navy, no real armies...nothing but militia and people who are damned pissed that we are in their country over someone else getting the blame, who of which we can not find in the dessert.

Philip,

Here you go with the labels. I could stand the debate up until then. Now it is going negatively.

Frankly, I don't care what I look like, I stand for what is right and I thought it was plain and evident that I was against the war in my first post. As far as blabbering whatever, that is what people call it when they don't want to hear anything contrary to what they are set on. I never said anything about soldiers being stupid and it is not BS when I speak in favor of their lives.

Have a good day all.

Rod!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Hey you guys are throwing so much soap in the mix that yer clogging my injector!! :) Although this has been an intriguiing refreshing debate it has gotten a bit personal on each other with the nit picking and quoting every little thing. Agreeing to disagree seems the only way out. It be like the pot calling the kettle black but do ya all think so much more can be said with fewer words?

Rod, Your respect for human life is admirable but at same time your responsability to freedom as I related them to each other earlier in my one post is in question in my most humble opinion anyway...

I believe that war itself has become disfuctional in terms of red tape nitpicking of what not to bomb or who to try and save. It has become too much like this debate in which we must pick and choose carefully from all the data and things said in order to come up with decent minded points and side taking. War is not decent and is not until this past century meant to be clean and pretty. I mean are we at war or not? Time for debate of reasons why or justification are over. In old days armies just went through and ravaged everything leaving nothing but starvation and burnt fields or the overthrowers commanded so much respect through their past endeavours that the people under them dare not rebel. It has become something much more sinister in my opinion now these days.

I would have prefurred to see us out after the heavy bombing was over cause I knew dang well that we weren't going to be able to go through and do it satisfactory to all let alone completely. Shoulda withdrew, let saddam come out his hole, go back and bomb him again, and let them all kill each other.

Policing for military is just silly idea. And if it aint policing and is considered full on war instead then we should be conducting it as such with whole area clearing and upsetting of the system. The system the way it is now is one of don't tell on cousin cause it will offend Ala yadda yadda... Old days you would find it hard pressed to hide from troops looking for you cause you had no where to hide or people to hide behind. Your support system/communications was thrown through a loop by your contacts being uprooted and isolated off in a camp somewhere or moved to places lacking proper communications just so as to get away from the advancing campaign of heavy bombing or door to door type of war. Why the heck do we continue to help rebuid what needs to come down anyway. All we're doingis giving more places and resources to those we are at war with.

In war you siege, starv, burn, or bomb out your enemy until they give up.

In Iraq's case I care not much for stupid innocent people standing around while war goes on around them. If they are so stupid to stand there as casualites and try and continue on about their financial or any other type life they are living in the wrong century. Old days people knew when to run and knew their whole life was going to be in shambles if they did not follow the change of rule. Helping rebel forces would get you hanged or staked to the ground.. Anyways. I believe in much of what everyone here has said but I would go to war with only some...carry on...

[kevinw 14]

I thought some of you might find this interesting. There is obviously a lot of strong emotion on this on both sides. The attachment is an after action assessment from Gen. Barry McCaffery (Ret.). If you remember the first Gulf War, you probably remember him...he was all over the briefings. Whether you like him, or don't, he's a straight up guy that tells it like it is. He doesn't sugar coat the present situation, he gives an accurate description of our current political environment, and he describes a hopeful solution in Iraq. Read it all the way through, very interesting.

AARMcCaffreyIraq032607.pdf

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I thought some of you might find this interesting. There is obviously a lot of strong emotion on this on both sides. The attachment is an after action assessment from Gen. Barry McCaffery (Ret.). If you remember the first Gulf War, you probably remember him...he was all over the briefings. Whether you like him, or don't, he's a straight up guy that tells it like it is. He doesn't sugar coat the present situation, he gives an accurate description of our current political environment, and he describes a hopeful solution in Iraq. Read it all the way through, very interesting.

About that pdf.... in other words either blow it up or get out of dodge..

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Kevin,

Sorry about the convolution and I agree, it was getting a bit to narrow of scope. But to reply to your response:

War is money. It fuels the economy. Red tape, I don't think so in that respect but more likely what can "they" get away with and how to position it in order to do so. This is in the conspiracy tone but none-the-less, it is my perception.

We have the capabilities to do some major damage and render nations such as Iraq harmless in just a few weeks or less. But the strategies employed were not well thought out and now it is on the ground and face to face with the enemy who could be any civilian. I don't like that we went there to begin with and the fact that it is being so badly mismanaged is compounding the efforts and boosting the death toll. I say quit wasting time and get the job done and get the heck out. Otherwise, it becomes obvious we are there for another reason. I say it is oil.

Rod!~

[Jeff 232]

Hey you guys are throwing so much soap in the mix that yer clogging my injector!! :) Although this has been an intriguiing refreshing debate it has gotten a bit personal on each other with the nit picking and quoting every little thing. Agreeing to disagree seems the only way out. It be like the pot calling the kettle black but do ya all think so much more can be said with fewer words?

Rod, Your respect for human life is admirable but at same time your responsability to freedom as I related them to each other earlier in my one post is in question in my most humble opinion anyway...

I believe that war itself has become disfuctional in terms of red tape nitpicking of what not to bomb or who to try and save. It has become too much like this debate in which we must pick and choose carefully from all the data and things said in order to come up with decent minded points and side taking. War is not decent and is not until this past century meant to be clean and pretty. I mean are we at war or not? Time for debate of reasons why or justification are over. In old days armies just went through and ravaged everything leaving nothing but starvation and burnt fields or the overthrowers commanded so much respect through their past endeavours that the people under them dare not rebel. It has become something much more sinister in my opinion now these days.

I would have prefurred to see us out after the heavy bombing was over cause I knew dang well that we weren't going to be able to go through and do it satisfactory to all let alone completely. Shoulda withdrew, let saddam come out his hole, go back and bomb him again, and let them all kill each other.

Policing for military is just silly idea. And if it aint policing and is considered full on war instead then we should be conducting it as such with whole area clearing and upsetting of the system. The system the way it is now is one of don't tell on cousin cause it will offend Ala yadda yadda... Old days you would find it hard pressed to hide from troops looking for you cause you had no where to hide or people to hide behind. Your support system/communications was thrown through a loop by your contacts being uprooted and isolated off in a camp somewhere or moved to places lacking proper communications just so as to get away from the advancing campaign of heavy bombing or door to door type of war. Why the heck do we continue to help rebuid what needs to come down anyway. All we're doingis giving more places and resources to those we are at war with.

In war you siege, starv, burn, or bomb out your enemy until they give up.

In Iraq's case I care not much for stupid innocent people standing around while war goes on around them. If they are so stupid to stand there as casualites and try and continue on about their financial or any other type life they are living in the wrong century. Old days people knew when to run and knew their whole life was going to be in shambles if they did not follow the change of rule. Helping rebel forces would get you hanged or staked to the ground.. Anyways. I believe in much of what everyone here has said but I would go to war with only some...carry on...

Pretty good post !

Jeff

[kevinw 14]

I appreciate your opinion, Rod. I guess I don't see it in those terms. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to interpret the information, but I thought he gave a pretty impartial assessment. Interestingly, he's not a politician...from what I know of him, he's a pure soldier with no axe to grind. I thought he provided a good assessment of the current situation and what must happen for this to have a decent chance of success. I haven't seen that kind of objectivity anywhere else.

I don't agree that war is about money, but I understand your opinion. However, I also understand that there is an economic impact to war and there are those who profit from war. I'm not sure that I can come to the conclusion that makes them bad or good anymore than I can conclude that about myself. I make my living off of people who need maintenance for deck...does that make me an opportunist?

I do get a little sideways when I see some of the postings that keep going back to the same old pre-election rhetoric, regardless of contextual accuracy or any other form of accuracy. There have been a lot of postings on this thread that just keep dredging up the same old generalities, even if they're inaccurate.

Wars aren't simple, and it's deceptive to make simple conclusions about them. For example...should we have taken Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Yes. Should Clinton have taken him out when he was offered multiple opportunities? Yes. Who is more wrong...Bush or Clinton? Do we blame Clinton for what happened or Bush? Should Bush have fired Rumsfeld earlier? Yes. But if Clinton had taken Bin Laden out, we wouldn't need to ask that question...so who's fault is it...Clinton or Bush?

I'm not trying to start another debate, my point is that it's not always a straight line or a simple conclusion. We are where we are. We can keep pointing fingers and second guessing, or we can plan the best course forward and get on with it. As the parent of a soldier, I am glad to see that the plan is showing measurable signs of improvement. That means my son will be at less risk in Iraq. Due to my beliefs and convictions, I don't believe we can simply walk away and leave those people to their own devices knowing full well that it will result in the deaths of thousands more.

There was an interesting note in Gen. McCaffery's report, re-enlistment rates are at an all time high. What that tells me is that our soldiers believe in what they are doing. I know a lot of these guys that are re-enlisting. I find it interesting that they believe in what they are doing...even in the face of the debates that rage on here.

[Deck Guy 14]

Re-enlisment bonuses are also at an all-time high. Those numbers may reflect more than pure patriotism, or a belief in the mission. Sometimes it's just about feeding your family.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rod,

My use of "redtape" was metaphor of how the military's hands get tied behind their backs due to compassion modern methods of warfare. You seem to be using it in terms of the stretching and extension of the war by and for political means and then on down through to and through the military as if they too like the extension. ..You can use the term anyway you wish of course...just wanted to be clear :)

I am taking what you say about getting job done so as notto look like being there for something else and putting it in my business repertoire.. :)

[PLD 14]

Frankly, I don't care what I look like, I stand for what is right and I thought it was plain and evident that I was against the war in my first post.

Oh, it was perfectly evident you were against the war all along. It's just that your justification for that position keeps changing post-to-post. Clearly you formed an opinion and then started searching for objections to support it. When your information gets challeged, the topic changes to the next objection.

As far as blabbering whatever, that is what people call it when they don't want to hear anything contrary to what they are set on.

Not wanting to hear contrarian information is "decidedly ignorant". We have all been guilty of that at one time or another. "Blabbering" is when one intellectually staggers about making a continuous stream incongruent and often irrelevant statements.

I never said anything about soldiers being stupid

You said that they were being misled. Which implies that the soldiers are incapable of determining the truth for themselves. In contrast, smart people like yourself are perfectly capable of determining the truth.

So, while I will grant that you did not literally call them stupid, you made it perfectly clear that they are not as intelligent as you and other enlightened folk. A concept which I (and many others) would have great disagreement with.

it is not BS when I speak in favor of their lives.

Perhaps you might try letting people speak in favor of their own lives for a change.

[PLD 14]

Re-enlisment bonuses are also at an all-time high. Those numbers may reflect more than pure patriotism, or a belief in the mission. Sometimes it's just about feeding your family.

While I agree that compensation is a factor, dead men cannot plow fields. It takes alot more than a pay raise to get someone to take a bullet and leave the family totally unsupported.

[PLD 14]

All you Bush supporters always say us "liberals" just hate anything bush does

Yes, we do. Yes, you do. (your words below)

Is Bush saving us or hurting us, maybe only history will tell, but I PERSONALLY dont like or trust the man and Im not weak on terror or the military I just dont trust Bush to tell us the truth, I dont trust him to plan or run a war, I just dont trust the man and PERSONALLY I think we are going to find out a lot of negative things about bush in time, Now thats just my personal feeling, its not me as you all say a LIBERAL Talking. I just dont like him because to me he is a proven liar and not a good president

And this is the heart of the matter. You guys just don't like bush and ANY decision he makes is wrong before he has even made it.

Bush mistakes according to libs:

Pulled out of afghanastan too early

Didn't pull out of iraq soon enough.

Too many soldiers dying

Not enough soldiers in iraq.

didn't finish the job already.

Too many soldiers in iraq.

Didn't nuke 'em all.

Too many civilian casualties.

Gas prices are too high because of war

Bush is wrong to fight for more oil.

Bush didn't kill bin laden

Bush did kill saddam

Gitmo is cruel

Not enough intelligence from terrorists.

Our men do not have equipment.

We spend too much on the war effort.

[Jeff 232]

Yes, we do. Yes, you do. (your words below)

And this is the heart of the matter. You guys just don't like bush and ANY decision he makes is wrong before he has even made it.

Bush mistakes according to libs:

Pulled out of afghanastan too early

Didn't pull out of iraq soon enough.

Too many soldiers dying

Not enough soldiers in iraq.

didn't finish the job already.

Too many soldiers in iraq.

Didn't nuke 'em all.

Too many civilian casualties.

Gas prices are too high because of war

Bush is wrong to fight for more oil.

Bush didn't kill bin laden

Bush did kill saddam

Gitmo is cruel

Not enough intelligence from terrorists.

Our men do not have equipment.

We spend too much on the war effort.

[/quote

YES PHIL YOU ARE RIGHT AGAIN, AS USUAL

I choose not to debate you at all, you are much to rude to me and others. No one can voice a veiw, without you, your tone and your words being nasty.

There are other posters here that have totally opposite and strong views than mine, but they can post & rebut what i say or others say without being a

The End

Jeff

[Jeff 232]

NUKE EM........

Have a good one

[Jeff 232]

I appreciate your opinion, Rod. I guess I don't see it in those terms. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to interpret the information, but I thought he gave a pretty impartial assessment. Interestingly, he's not a politician...from what I know of him, he's a pure soldier with no axe to grind. I thought he provided a good assessment of the current situation and what must happen for this to have a decent chance of success. I haven't seen that kind of objectivity anywhere else.

I don't agree that war is about money, but I understand your opinion. However, I also understand that there is an economic impact to war and there are those who profit from war. I'm not sure that I can come to the conclusion that makes them bad or good anymore than I can conclude that about myself. I make my living off of people who need maintenance for deck...does that make me an opportunist?

I do get a little sideways when I see some of the postings that keep going back to the same old pre-election rhetoric, regardless of contextual accuracy or any other form of accuracy. There have been a lot of postings on this thread that just keep dredging up the same old generalities, even if they're inaccurate.

Wars aren't simple, and it's deceptive to make simple conclusions about them. For example...should we have taken Bin Laden in Afghanistan? Yes. Should Clinton have taken him out when he was offered multiple opportunities? Yes. Who is more wrong...Bush or Clinton? Do we blame Clinton for what happened or Bush? Should Bush have fired Rumsfeld earlier? Yes. But if Clinton had taken Bin Laden out, we wouldn't need to ask that question...so who's fault is it...Clinton or Bush?

I'm not trying to start another debate, my point is that it's not always a straight line or a simple conclusion. We are where we are. We can keep pointing fingers and second guessing, or we can plan the best course forward and get on with it. As the parent of a soldier, I am glad to see that the plan is showing measurable signs of improvement. That means my son will be at less risk in Iraq. Due to my beliefs and convictions, I don't believe we can simply walk away and leave those people to their own devices knowing full well that it will result in the deaths of thousands more.

There was an interesting note in Gen. McCaffery's report, re-enlistment rates are at an all time high. What that tells me is that our soldiers believe in what they are doing. I know a lot of these guys that are re-enlisting. I find it interesting that they believe in what they are doing...even in the face of the debates that rage on here.

Kevin, good post

I'm going to try to explain some of my views, not to fight or anything, just to help explain what I feel and what i think many Americans feel on why now we may want the war to end or come to a conclusion. I'm not a great writer and in this posting I may be all over the place and may sound like mindless babbling but I'm just going to write things as i think of them.

Kevin as you are a parent of a soldier I want to thank you and your child for doing what he does. I am not against the military at all and most americans are not I would guess to say 99.99 % aren't , yes there are some nuts that are and they are extreme. I am 100% behind our military soldiers, that doesn't mean I cant be against what the military brass say or do. It doesn't mean I have to support Rumsfeld 100% when I think he was wrong on many things. I think we don't fund the military enough, actually thats a fact.

Its like Jack Murtha, I never really heard of him until he came out for getting the troops out. Some hate him and some love him for his present position. Well from what I've read and heard about him he was one of the strongest supporters of the military for decades. What I think is he saw things being run wrong and after trying for change and answers , which he saw there was going to be no change under Rumsfeld and wasn't going to get many answers from the Bush admin he decided he had to take what would be considered a Strong or extreme view and for the soldiers on the ground I think he said the way things are going he rather have them out than continue on a no win course. I feel he thought we were fighting a war but not doing what was need to actually win that war. Now Murtha has stated that with the new Sec of Defense Gates he feels Gates is trying, he says Gates is giving answers to questions that should of been answered all along. Will he turn around now and say leave the troops and fight on, no, for a couple reasons as I see it, some is partisan politics and some is I think he thinks we may of lost the opportunity to win this war and some is mistrust of the Bush admin

I think many Americans that were for the war and now against it ( yes I know sounds like Kerry) are against it for several reasons, some of the same reasons i gave when I talked about Murtha. Some Americans feel its a war we cant win as in other past wars and they feel why have our boys killed for a people or a Regen, that have either been killing each other for centuries or for a people that wont rise up against what we think is evil

I may to some sound like I'm flip flopping but just because my views change with time doesn't necessarily mean its flip flopping

Alright now I give you my views on President Bush, this is how i feel about him when it comes to the war in Iraq and some other things, I am going to right this without trying to be inflammatory and I hope you all understand I'm just trying to write how I feel and I hope I'm not multi quoted just to be torn apart for my views and if I am I will not respond to negative just for the sake of being negative.

True I do not like President Bush. I feel I'm a pretty good judgment of character ( I may be I might not be but I feel I am). I've supported past republicans on many of their views in the past, yes I may be liberal on many domestic issues but when it comes to soldiers I'm 100% for them. Now Bush I feel much of what he has said and done is for the benefit of getting elected, some was lack of experience, some was lies I think, some was strong feeling he holds. I've always thought something about him doesn't ring true. I've posted and have been shot down many times saying that Bush was going to go to Iraq no matter what even before 911 happened, thats how i feel and I cant and shouldn't really have to prove thats how I felt, I'm not lieing. I have alway been a current affairs kind of guy, I watch the news Fox,MSNBC, CNN, read Newsweek, The National Review and many other things. But just so some know my thoughts about Bush & Iraq. I used to talk with my mom & dad about politics all the time. Before my dad passed away we would have talks all the time. and way before 911 I had said to him Bush is going to go after Iraq, because he wanted to because I felt he had to get Saddam for wanting Bush Sr killed and I felt he thought his father lost reelection in part due to not going all the way in the 1st Iraq war. so that is why I say he was going to Iraq no matter what and thats why I say he lied to us saying it was because WMDs or to liberate the people of Iraq

I feel with many who are Bush supporters they follow blindly SOMETIMES, no trying to **** you all off. I see a president that I too was behind 100% after the 911 attack, thats how we are as Americans, Althou I didn't like Bush prior to 911 I would have followed him to hell and back after that horrible day. I think this is where some don't understand us liberal or democrats or us who want out of Iraq ( many who want out of Iraq are also republicans, many in the armed forces and many from all walks of life not just us flip flopping liberals)

We were attacked and we stood behind our president, we listened to his arguments for going to war in Afghanistan, we all/most said go get them, we all said yes sign the Patriot Act, we said go do what you have to do to kill who killed us. We would of all probably said go ahead and NUKE Afghanistan if he said thats the only way we can get them all or if they said they (Afghanistan had nukes) So when the intelligence and the administration said Saddam had WMD's that he or other could use against us, or Saddam was working on nukes to use against us we questioned some of it, but since 911 happened we said DO what you have to to protect us and it was also for revenge. I and many others thought it was possibly a bad idea or not the time to go to Iraq, but we wanted to be behind our president and our country so we basically gave him carte Blanche to do what ever he wanted. Unlike some Bush supporters we did have some reservations some were spoken and some never said a thing. What I didn't like back then was how if you spoke your mind against the war in Iraq or against Bush, you were labeled unpatriotic. A lot of that labeling was as I saw it a ploy, to get there way on the war and some I thought & think was nothing but a ploy to get elected, because yes unfortunately BOTH parties will say or do just about anything to get elected.

So here we are 100% or 90% what ever behind the president, we hear things that aren't ringing true, we go to Iraq, we find no WMDs right away, but we hear Bush, Chenney, Rumsfeld say we will find them, they are there, we wait still no WMDs, well then we hear its not just because of WMD's that we went to war, we are now there also because we have to help liberate the Iraq people ( hold it, that wasn't the original reason that wasn't in a UN resolution) I'm not a huge fan of the UN, but we do need something and the UN is all we have. So the war goes on. Now we are fighting this war and Rumsfeld is making all these press conferences and looking pretty happy with how things are going and yes I said it before that as Rumsfeld has stated the war will cost us $10 billion and Chenny was saying we have the insurgents on the run, that was over 3-4 years ago they said that. Just a year ago Chenney was saying we have them on the run. Nothing I have seen says we have anyone on the run. So we are in Iraq, we have a president saying MISSION ACCOMPLISHED . Everybody is feeling kind of good, we think the war will be over soon, months maybe a year or so. I'm thinking good, but things start to change the people in the streets of Iraq are looting there is NO police no military to stop them. American are wondering why we cant control it when we are told we can. The admin keeps saying everything is great. We as Americans can see that everything isn't great, why is our government saying it is. We are wondering why we pulled many from Afghanistan, we weren't told at 1st we would be pulling 75% or more of our troops out. Why weren't we told some and I are wondering. we see our president who is suppose to be for the military isn't protecting are troops. We all thought our servicemen would have EVERYTHING they need, we are a super power but we don't have vest for soldiers!!!! we don't have armored vehicles for our soldiers. We try to question it and all we are told is we are UNPATRIOTIC.

I wonder to this day why they kept trying to say everything is alright, it wasn't until recently anybody in the administration said some things were done wrong. I wonder why our president didn't come to the American people and ask us to sacrifice something. Why didn't he say hey we are going to charge everybody something to help contribute to the military, or say hey we need more military so we are going to need to start a draft. A lot wasn't asked of us the non military people. I wonder and think, he asked us to do nothing because it would of been unpopular and yes it would of hurt his and others chances for reelection

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[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Oh, it was perfectly evident you were against the war all along. It's just that your justification for that position keeps changing post-to-post. Clearly you formed an opinion and then started searching for objections to support it. When your information gets challeged, the topic changes to the next objection.

Right, so I am a chameleon now. Wrong again. One piece of advice...Psychology is not working in your favor on me, lets stick to the topic and not personal interjection to support your arguments. As the thread unfolds, one finds out more about someone but not enough to justify making targeted statements that don't have anything to do with the topic.

Not wanting to hear contrarian information is "decidedly ignorant". We have all been guilty of that at one time or another. "Blabbering" is when one intellectually staggers about making a continuous stream incongruent and often irrelevant statements.

Granted, but where do you get your information that is so much more reliable? You have your sources and I have mine. We can agree to disagree about what is relevant.

You said that they were being misled. Which implies that the soldiers are incapable of determining the truth for themselves. A soldier is not trained to think for themselves outside of following orders. Their mind is programmed to get the job done. There, they have the ability to think but inside a box confined to duty and honor. They are not afforded the luxury of questioning orders. Peer pressure and training prevents that. In contrast, smart people like yourself are perfectly capable of determining the truth.

Now you are getting belligerent. People like myself are on the outside looking in and can see from a different perspective. You obviously have a problem with my position and choose to try to discredit me.

So, while I will grant that you did not literally call them stupid, you made it perfectly clear that they are not as intelligent as you and other enlightened folk. A concept which I (and many others) would have great disagreement with.

No, not in the least. You are reading into something that is not there...it is called assumption. Ask a question and get an answer...you will learn more and have a better relationship with the person instead of alienating them due to an unwillingness to understand and jumping to conclusions. Conversation is not an exact science like rocketry. It takes a bit more effort to understand and to be understood.

Perhaps you might try letting people speak in favor of their own lives for a change.

They do that already and I am sure it helps them to know that someone else values their life unlike the ones who are sending them to waste.

So far Philip, this has only served to segway into a counter productive debacle between you and I and as others have posted their unfavorable view of our exchange, I am ending it here.

To the readers, I apologize for the detraction from this thread.

Rod!~

[Jeff 232]

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Sorry

So we all followed like sheep, yes even those who we hire to question things didnt, except a few.

We follow and those of who dont like Bush to begin with can see discrepancies in whats being told to us and what we see, yes I agree the majority of the news media does lean to the left, but the facts are we arent seeing a smooth running machine, that we are told is running smooth. I figured 140,000 tropps would probably be enough, but then I think why in the 1st Iraq war did we have 500,000. Several months after Mission accomplished I think was the real point people started questioning the war.

We naturally question things and we are seeing things get worse, yes they dont show the good things like schools and stuff like that , but the facts are after good things alway come bad. We would clear an area of insurgents and then leave to go to another area and then the insurgents just walk back in. Many now are asking for us to leave in America, many are asking for more troops but what does the admin do, no change stay the course we are told. we wonder if we can see things going wrong why cant the admin. All along we here Haliburtin is making billions, we hear stay the course, we hear we are unpatriotic, we are 1000, 2000, 2500 soldiers are dead, we hear we are training Iraq police and troops from the beginning and they will take over, we see no troops that will stand and fight we see all our soldiers hard work training them show no real results. To this day we have over 50% of the troops just disappear, we are told many many things and dont see results. SO WHAT DO WE DO..........We start to see things are being run wrong by our President, althou he will not admit it, he doesnt ask for more troops Rumsfeld says we dont need them, I know war isnt easy, it isnt predictable, its hell, TELL US THAT and then change, but all we got up till 8-12 months ago is everything is going OK, this is 3-4 years after Mission Accomplished. So we as American people question why are we there, if we stay what will it accomplish, many of us cant see the way its being run that it will accomplish anything and you know the way it was being run wasnt and wouldnt accomplish anything

SO WE AS AMERICANS lose faith and we say GET OUR TROOPS OUT and let the cards fall as they may. We know leaving may cause death, we know leaving may bring insurgents in more, we know leaving will look like defeat, we know leaving is defeat but if we see no winning plan or actions we say get out and save our soldiers. We cant just keep following a losing plan, plain and simple

Are we unpatriotic for wanting out NO, are we concerned about some of the same things Bush followers are concerned about yes. But Bush hasnt shown us the way.

Its a total picture, we see other things going on, everything is political and Bush is one of the best at playing politics so do we follow him, do we trust him, no we cant its seems to many that this is a game and it isnt. So all the political stuff and some of the lies or games play take away from his credibility also

There were elections, we couldnt trust who was in charge so the people wanted change, they got it and if we see the same old same old we will ask for change again. We the people have to voice our opinions more but we are lazy or content. Bush supporters should question Bush and push him to be a better Commander in Chief

I say get out, we are in a no win no win situation with a president I dont have much faith in. Fight the war on terror here and now. Go after extremist with CIA Delta Force Guided Missles. Beef up our Homeland Security, dont start a program for security and dont fund it. Get out of Iraq and use the $$$Billions for homeland

Just babbling, I'll stop for now sorry its probably a blur of blabbling but so isnt this Iraq thing

[kevinw 14]

Jeff,

Actually, I believe that may have been the longest post you've written! LOL You know, there really isn't anything new there, though. Pretty much the same arguments you've made before. I guess I'm to the point of saying when do we move on? When do we quit re-hashing the motive for the war, whether Rumsfeld should have been fired earlier? If you want to be right, and it will allow us to move forward...be right! Let's move on! Do you believe that it makes any difference? As I stated earlier, we are where we are.

Now Congress has presented a bill for military funding that is loaded with pork...loaded! They knew it would be vetoed when they sent it to the Whitehouse...but they wasted time and money to do it anyway. I don't care if they Dems or Reps...that is ludicrous. Can you imagine the response from the military? How would you feel to find out that Congress is playing games while you're watching your funding run out? They spent weeks trying to pass a bill that was nothing more than a commentary on the war...it meant nothing! But they spent millions of our tax dollars on it anyway. Instead of getting busy and taking decisive action, they're jacking around with politics. I don't care what pary they're in, or what color they are...they need to quit playing games and take care of business.

If you're a historian, then you are seeing history repeat itself...this is exactly the way Congress played out Viet Nam! When we needed them to step up, they started playing politics. If you can't tell, I'm very tired of the politics. I read Nancy Pelosi's comments about the stock market and the economy yesterday, and couldn't beleve what I was reading. If her comments reflect her understanding of the economy, we're in big trouble.

Rod,

Not trying to pick a fight, but I take exception to your characterization of the military as mindless robots that are programmed to obey order and think in the box. I can only assume that you don't know many folks in the military. Let me give you an example. My son was on an FTX recently, his platoon went through the scheduled excercise and aced it...they were the only platoon that suppressed the hostiles without taking casualties. As a result, he had an opportunity to discuss their operating orders in Iraq with the sr. officers and advised that he felt those orders would get men killed. They asked him to re-write the orders. Another example, a platoon that was going through JRTC was put in a no-win situation to assess how they would respond. If you're not familiar with JRTC, you don't win their...JRTC is organized to show you how bad it can be in Iraq. This platoon, led by a Corporal, thought "outside the box", took action and was recognized for creative thinking.

I doubt that I will persuade you, but I recommend you take a look into some of the reports from Iraq that detail day to day activites. These guys are "out of the box" everyday, and it's working. Don't listen to media, get on some of the blogs and check it out. You might be surprised at what you find.

Kevin