WTW tips

[bigchaz 157]

700 sq foot all horizontal job I just sold with wood tux wet. Stripped the previous finish and brightened

Any tips for the WTW? I learned on my sample tests that it should be really thin. The wood is pine. Planning on using the 18 inch pad for it

Anything I should know or y'all recommend before putting it on?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Doug,

Sorry to hear it didn't help. Really sorry to hear it.

Beth :(

[MMI Enterprises 289]

The problem with adding spirits in any appreciable quantity is that it will also water down the pigmentation. Last year's "formula" featured too much pigmentation at the surface (for my taste) and thinning was feasible. This year I notice pigmentation is diving deeper and resulting in a faded look. The cure for other stains/sealers like RS and Baker's is to apply a second coat. Since it has been said again and again that over application is a problem this won't work for WT. Not only that, A second coat for something that costs half the price of WT is understandable. I expect a premium priced product to give premium results.. out of the can.

In retrospect, the other formula was preferable. At least I knew how to solve its inherent issues.

I agree with your "Out of the can" statement Ken and don't think anyone but the chemists should have to mess with it.

However I think the topic deserves some clarification of my previous post.....

Metal cobalt drier (Japan Drier) is used to speed up the initial polimerization (oxygen uptake) mainly at the surface of whatever long oil a product consists of. It's a 'surface drier' . It is akin to solvent flashing should be my point so that the surface can be used quiker. This process is called 'induction'. There is sound reason of course why they use a metal drier instead of higher voc/ flamable methods. The amounts spoken here to add are higher then I have heard of useing by two fold....Whatever the case, the deeper layers of oil itself still need to go through it's chemical cure and historically driers to speed that up have been lead and zirconium. They are 'through driers'. All these driers can be made to work more efficiently by addition of calcium salts. By using properly prepared/boiled/blown oils to begin with a cure can be had that much quiker... sort of a jump start if you will. In our case with stains the formulators have to play a balance game between what oils, driers, and solvents to use to get things kicking over quiker. By kicking over I don't mean evaporative drying persay but rather the oxygenating of the oil which makes the chemical reactive based cure procede onward.

Tung is faster and more chemically reactive than linseed and is why some brands contain it. The point made above by Ken about WTW diving deeper this time around points to an oil that has not been blown sufficiently as blown tung gets thicker. Raw linseed takes weeks to cure where as boiled takes up to only a couple days butnote that boiled doesn't have to be blown and doesn't have to therefore be thicker....This leedsto further consideration that if said boiled oil doesn't cure quiker then it likely that too much Stand oil is also in the formula. Being stand oil is thick and this years problem formula is thinner I would think such addition is not the case?

This is all hypothetical now at this point being I know not what is in the WTW. Without knowing or being involved none of us but the manufacture could say for sure what the product could need or use to fix the drying issue.

..But if the case be they not using quality boiled oil and yet they still trying to dry the whole mass with japan drier then I call FOWL BALL... :)

[Integrity Curb Appeal 64]

Scott,

Sounds like your order timing might be on the cusp of the WTW formula changeover.

If you do not need to use the stain right away, prep and apply some to a sample board. If it does not cure in a "reasonable" amount of time, adding Japan Drier will do the trick.

I'm not sure what is "reasonable" or normal curing time for "the old" WTW is as we do not use the stain. Ken, Beth & Rod, Jarrod, Celeste or other contractors who use the stain a lot might chime in here and let us know.

I hope it is corrected. I have been waiting for its arrival, and now I have to test it? I agree with Ken, it should be ready from the can. I'll let you know if I have any issues when I receive it.

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

Your chemistry has my head spinning. Wish I had paid attention to that class in college. Sounds great but honestly, I do not have a clue about what you are saying! Anyway, you said:

..But if the case be they not using quality boiled oil and yet they still trying to dry the whole mass with japan drier then I call FOWL BALL...

Far be it for me to defend ESI, and Russell and I are not best buddies. However, I am sure nothing even close to this is going on. Look, ESI produced a batch of stain without the normal quality of probably cobalt drier. Said batch was either not tested, or not tested correctly. According to Ken, who is very close to ESI, this next production run will not have the problem.

Contractors are adding Japan Drier to help make up the curing deficiency in this batch of WTW. From what I understand from other ESI contractors, even with the drier additive, the stain is still taking much longer to cure. My point in this thread is that this "fix" appears to be working on ipe', although the curing is much slower that "normal" WTW.

Not that I know what normal WTW is, this is the first time in 2 years I have tried to use it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

My responses in blue:

How come I don't hear any suggestions other then Japan Drier?

Quite simply, we are following the mfr's recommendations. I asked about putting Zylol which contains Xylene but the problem is that it and the ingredients you listed below this response raise the VOC content above the allowable limit for those of us in the Atlantic states under the higher VOC restrictions.

Trot on down to SW to get some faster reducer into the product to flash the oil better. Needs more heat and more oxygen forced into the oil. Maybe some naptha, toluene, or odorless turpentine....personally I like laquuer thinner :).. The solvent in WTW is likely already a slow spirit and I see recommendation of using more of such on top as just a spreading around and wait game of the apparent slow drying oil. Product simply needs a faster oil and a faster solvent to begin with..... sorry if it offends but my feeling is somebody really screwed up.

Here is a handy reference on solvent/dryer speeds :

ICS on Thinner

I would recommend calling the mfr. for yourself and finding out why. There are certain ingredients that are probably not compatible with the formulation in regard to the wet technology or the biocides.

Other than that, we are talking about increased probability of spontaneous combustion which as it is, is already an issue from reports we have heard.

Rod!~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I agree with your "Out of the can" statement Ken and don't think anyone but the chemists should have to mess with it.

However I think the topic deserves some clarification of my previous post.....

Metal cobalt drier (Japan Drier) is used to speed up the initial polimerization (oxygen uptake) mainly at the surface of whatever long oil a product consists of. It's a 'surface drier' . It is akin to solvent flashing should be my point so that the surface can be used quiker. This process is called 'induction'. There is sound reason of course why they use a metal drier instead of higher voc/ flamable methods. The amounts spoken here to add are higher then I have heard of useing by two fold....Whatever the case, the deeper layers of oil itself still need to go through it's chemical cure and historically driers to speed that up have been lead and zirconium. They are 'through driers'. All these driers can be made to work more efficiently by addition of calcium salts. By using properly prepared/boiled/blown oils to begin with a cure can be had that much quiker... sort of a jump start if you will. In our case with stains the formulators have to play a balance game between what oils, driers, and solvents to use to get things kicking over quiker. By kicking over I don't mean evaporative drying persay but rather the oxygenating of the oil which makes the chemical reactive based cure procede onward.

Tung is faster and more chemically reactive than linseed and is why some brands contain it. The point made above by Ken about WTW diving deeper this time around points to an oil that has not been blown sufficiently as blown tung gets thicker. Raw linseed takes weeks to cure where as boiled takes up to only a couple days butnote that boiled doesn't have to be blown and doesn't have to therefore be thicker....This leedsto further consideration that if said boiled oil doesn't cure quiker then it likely that too much Stand oil is also in the formula. Being stand oil is thick and this years problem formula is thinner I would think such addition is not the case?

This is all hypothetical now at this point being I know not what is in the WTW. Without knowing or being involved none of us but the manufacture could say for sure what the product could need or use to fix the drying issue.

..But if the case be they not using quality boiled oil and yet they still trying to dry the whole mass with japan drier then I call FOWL BALL... :)

Holy **** we have another chemist in the house!!! :lol:

Good information but for a novice like me, I wouldn't like to experiment any more than I already do with chocolate milk. :)

Rod!~

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rod I would not expect anyone to have to fix the product..just offering some the specifics as to what could be at cause...It is obvious that the voc/flamability/ and compatability is key here. But really now..smething needs to be stressed.... We got people here with things not drying and all we get is Japan Drier as advice? I fully explained above that it is geared for surface drying. James made good point on wondering where his 2 grand is...is my feeling..I been through this sorta thing over the years on interior products and know some the ins and outs is all of how manufactures go about saving money or adjusting things due to seasons.

...."From what I understand from other ESI contractors, even with the drier additive, the stain is still taking much longer to cure. ".....

What does this tell some you folks when I tell you that the process of making a boiled oil includes the process of including the drier?.. It tells me perhaps somebody is trying to save money and changed something to meet budget...sorry. I call it as I see it..It also tells me a deadhose is gettingbeat in trying to cure something faster that doesn't want to be cured :)

[PressurePros 249]

Kevin, you are way out my league. Great post above. Why don't you call, Russell? I think between your two minds you can work something out. You may be the new set of eyes (so to speak) ESI needs right now. I realize Russell knows his stuff and even he conceded that his chemist knows even more but I think some fresh persepctive neds to be brought into this equation. I see a lot of wheel spinning going on and its affecting my business.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rick,

"Look, ESI produced a batch of stain without the normal quality of probably cobalt drier"

...did I miss a post or something? Perhaps I failed to see where it's been disclosed that a lack of enough and/or quality (?) of Japan Drier was the cause. I only interprited it that it was a possable cure for an issue.. Well point me to where it is said what the cause was....It would be the dumbest darn thing I heard all year to hear they forgot to add part of the recipe.. I would much rather hear they changed a ratio or brand of oil and it's drying needs went unaccounted for..

Ken,

Surely it has been fixed and I even have enough trust to buy it and use it.

Am not a chemist and have nothing of knowledge the manufacture doesn't already have...

Rod,

"Quite simply, we are following the mfr's recommendations. I asked about putting Zylol which contains Xylene but the problem is that it and the ingredients you listed below this response raise the VOC content above the allowable limit for those of us in the Atlantic states under the higher VOC restrictions."

In a perfect world that is what you should do.. ask or rely on them to solve issue.. But we all know full well that it is a generic recommend by almost all manufacture to not approve a contractor tweaking things in such fasion. Least in this field anyways.... You get more into the painting contractor or auto painter field and you quikly see recommendations of different solvents/reducers or retarders,etc. that can be mixed on spot depending on environmental condition. ...btw, Xylene not fast enough.

p.s.- Russell does say "You can certainly thin for lighter color if your local VOC regulations permit it. " so realize it isn't witchcraft or anything new for me to have brung up the ability to get a head start via solvent flashing. The stuff isn't all that thick on top to begin with so I doubt 'skinning' would be much of a con..rather it be a pro for it to allow traffic sooner. Skinning is when the outer surface gets enough oxygen to where the polymerization happens and but the inside still needs to cure..As example some artist paintings take years..even centuries to dry.. :)

p.p.s.--- The two following posts speaking to Japan Drier is moot point when considering Japan Drier is a 'surface drier'...SURELY WTW DEPENDS ON MORE TO CURE THEN JUSTA SURFACE DRIER.. :) :)

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

My knowledge of chemistry is simple. My spelling and eludication is even worse. Quality is the wrong work, Quantity is the correct word.

My bad, or me bad, or whatever the kids say today.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Yea wasn't pointing to your spelling or choice of words really so I edited above what I meant to say...sorry

To rephraze..Has a quantity issue been stated? Haven't heard they use it in actual formula to begin with. You thinking they add it? You think they make their own oil?

[RPetry 564]

Kevin,

I think we may be at cross words here. It is my unsubstantiated understanding that ESI may have used less quantity of drier in this problem batch to allow more setup time for less experienced contractors and possibly the consumer market. This is heresay, not fact.

I was able to speak with Russell on the cell two days ago. I described the problem, he suggested the 3 - 4 oz. of Japan Drier as a "fix" for this stain batch. I did not ask him why the stain did not perform as designed. I did and do not care, just want to get this friggin' job done and go back to trying to make a meager living.

I'm not mad or disgusted. New stain on an oxalic prepped wood, two combined new processes on ipe', of all woods. Taken a bath before on a single job and will again. I'll make it up in a few weeks. Small bump in the road.

Actually glad for this WTW ipe' job. It will give me a benchmark on RS and ipe'. For my customer and potential new customers, just hope it works on hardwoods as advertised.

[Jarrod 22]

Scott,

Sounds like your order timing might be on the cusp of the WTW formula changeover.

If you do not need to use the stain right away, prep and apply some to a sample board. If it does not cure in a "reasonable" amount of time, adding Japan Drier will do the trick.

I'm not sure what is "reasonable" or normal curing time for "the old" WTW is as we do not use the stain. Ken, Beth & Rod, Jarrod, Celeste or other contractors who use the stain a lot might chime in here and let us know.

As far as "reasonable time" for drying goes, 24 hours is it in my opinion. Out of the many decks that we have done so far this year, only a few have had drying or tacky problems. Am I upset? Not really. All products have their occaisonal setbacks. Am I disappointed? A little, but not enough to discontinue using WTW. It's been very hit and miss as far as the "problems" go. I'm sure that Russell is working on the issue as we type. If it was every deck, I would be freaking out, but it's not like that at all. So far, I'm glad that I switched to WTW.

[Jarrod 22]

(Four)

[RPetry 564]

Jarrod,

Thanks for the input, 24 hours in normal warm conditions is the expected setup time? Probably longer on hardwoods I would guess, but that timeframe seems reasonable certainly for softwoods.

Care to let us know about the countdown? Please do not go postal on us.

[Tmrrptr 164]

Ken,

I don't think any manufacturer can make a product explicitly for each situation mother nature creates... sure, there's dwell time, and strength of application due to dilution by method of application (x or down), but c'mon!

You seem to be a seasoned Pro.

Is not every job different, at least in some way?

I realize you wish to keep things straight forward for employees, but a dash of this and a dash of that here and there is probably the best way.

r

[PressurePros 249]

Rich, I have no problem with products that are hard to work with. I have advocated Wood Tux for the last two and a half years on here. I have spent countless hours advocating usage of the product to contractors around the country. The problem is, if it changes every year I never become an expert with it. One look at Shane's work with Baker's will attest to experience with a product making a difference. Bakers is a mediocre product from a spec standpoint but Shane's work is outstanding. I'm not looking for EASY, I'm looking for CONSISTENT.

I agree with the E-Myth model. Every business should be set up as a franchise model with systems in place that make replication a turn key affair. A one-man show can add splashes of this and that to get a product where he needs it to be. The same can be said for a chef in a restaurant but for a business to have true resale value, a person needs to be able to step into position, apply documented technique and make money. Every formula needs to be precise. Thats the only way a business can grow with unskilled labor at the helm.

[Integrity Curb Appeal 64]

Jarrod,

Care to let us know about the countdown? Please do not go postal on us.

No kidding, You reading an Edgar Cayce book?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Ken,

"every formula needs to be precise. Thats the only way a business can grow with unskilled labor at the helm."

Surely many folks in here understand this point and instinctively or knowingly practice being precise. Personally my memory is shot so I could be viewed as unskilled labor in a way. My solution is to absorb all the important little tips and formulas and compose them into organized drafts that almost anyone including myself can make sense of a year down the road. As example I have a draft of recipes I can refer to at moments notice that people have shared.

[Jarrod 22]

Jarrod,

Thanks for the input, 24 hours in normal warm conditions is the expected setup time? Probably longer on hardwoods I would guess, but that timeframe seems reasonable certainly for softwoods.

Care to let us know about the countdown? Please do not go postal on us.

LOL! The countdown has nothing to do with anyone here. It has to do with a situation I'm having. It's no big deal (I hope)

[Jarrod 22]

For a 1 man show, "tweaking" a product, while tedious and unpredictable, is much easier than it would be for a business with employees. I think this further explains Ken's point.

A product should be ready to go out of the can. Tweaking is for hobbyists, not business people.

[Celeste 341]

Some of the recent posts - franchise talk, tweaking is for hobbyists - is all well and good for some business models, if that is your goal. Yes, Shane has consistency with his product with beautiful results. Diamond Jim has outstanding results with his Ready Seal. There are Wolman guys with killer pics, same with Mesmers, Penofin.

The bottom line is.......tweaking is not for hobbyists, it is what a professional does to make a product do what the professional says. There are multiple companies on this forum who have been "tweaking" WT for 2-3 years - what that indicates to me is that we have a manufacturer that is LISTENING to the contractors and TRYING to make people happy. Any other manufacturers doing that??? It shows that the product in and of itself has great merit and HELLO, we're all a part of making it the best it can be. This will sound quite disrespectful but it's their own claim - if you want a goof-proof stain, use Ready Seal.

Off my soapbox.

[James 625]

Celeste, you took some of my thunder away great observation's! If you read this thread from start to finish. It started out with cherry coating remark's about problems with WTW . Different from reality! Then reality started to kick in with more people having issue's. Now we have condesending remark's from the people who tried to cherry coat the problem in the first place.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Jarrod,

Perhaps you really meant to relay feeling that tweaking is not for pencil pushing desk people that rarely are charged with doing flexable business duties deemed by them or their supperiors as being outside their job description. I don't know what to say really to your use of the word 'hobbyist'. I can tell you this that here in Cali the act of staining is considered same as painting trade and the state contractors licensing board exams will require lots of tweaking knowledge. They'll beg to differ with you..The tweak himself is never a hobbyist if he is in business but his people under him might be..

I speak to this only cause I used the 'tweak' word prior and felt like your perhaps speaking more so to me then others. It may seem like I am double talking sometimes here by saying this stain should be good to go out the can but realize I am not speaking to hobbyists or HO's here and I mean to compare the product issues with other commercial products being used.

If your only interested in out the can commercial production then that is fine as it fits into a perfect world goal of all coatings being fool proofe but many of us are quite capable of tweaking things as needed or required.

Not meaning to sound offensive but I am 180 degree from you on your point. Tweaking is for business/skilled people, and lack of ability to tweak people that must use out the can is perhaps a hobbyists/laymen/or newbie in his field. I like and work with both types.. :)

[Jarrod 22]

Well, to clarify, when I say "tweaking is for hobbyists" I mean that it is for the guy or gal that actually has time for it. They sorta have a niche market and do high end service. They treat their "job" sorta like a hobby. It's something they love to do, & they actually get paid for it. A business person is in it more for the money not the "Love of the game" aspect.

I guess what I'm saying is - I totally agree with you (Kevin & Celeste)