First woodtux job

[plainpainter 217]

No - this ain't a thread about a new deck job. It's about my first deck I ever did with the woodtux product that I did last september. I had a chance to check the deck while the customer called back for something else. Looked no different than the day I put it on - and that's 10 months ago. But I did put it on thick - it was still shiny on all the summer grain. I kind of like that thick varnished look too - kind of like Sikkens. But no trace whatsoever of wear even on the stair treads. Anyone else like the alternative to matte/flat look for decking stains? Perhaps this is a way to get a stain to last real long - put it on real thick! Anyways take it for what it is worth - but looking at that deck, and my own that I did only 4 months prior to that - they are worlds apart - my deck finish is already all gone, different product - as well put on real thin so it was just matte. Actually all my verticals are still looking great - but horizontals, just totally wiped out.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We recently had a job that called for touch up of an existing installed product. We had an gallon of unopened product prior to the VOC changes to work with, and none of the "fuzz" came off the pad. This is why we say what we do. Same product line, newer version, releases fuzz....it's very odd... we wondered if something was reacting with the glue....something that didn't used to.

Beth

[plainpainter 217]

the alcohols perhaps? I take off old latex paint with denatured alcohol - I am sure it has the same effect on glue.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

I'll do an initial review and product impression sometime later this week when I may have a bit of free time. Also want to see the wood after curing.

Daniel asked:

Rick, how did you decide to neutralize that deck, is that the regular 6ozs. of citric/no-rinse?

No, this is my first deck with oxalic which was mixed at 6 oz. per gal. and allowed to dwell for ~ 10 minutes. Rinsed very well with lots of water.

Playing with my own ipe' deck this spring, it looked like the oxalic may have opened up the wood just a bit more than citric. Very small, very subjective potential difference.

Dale observed:

Looks great!....shouldn't you have started at the other end?.

Hah!, good eye. The deck floor was stained opposite of what would be normal. This was due to getting the "lower" deck floor done first to get some deck furniture back on as soon as possible. The weather Friday was also a big factor. High chance of torrential thunderstorms and wanted to make sure at least the lower deck was done first and had some time to cure.

Rich asked:

But wazzup with that post top on the right?

When building with ipe', it is normal to seal all end cuts with a product called "Anchor Seal". This is suppose to help prevent checking of the cut ends. Its a very viscous, waxy liquid. That is what you are seeing on the end grain.

There are ipe' end caps that go on top of the posts but are not installed in the picture.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Finally got rain here Friday, after a very very dry summer here in MD. It rained on a freshly sealed WT deck. Had thunderstorms off and on all weekend - most rain we have had in a while. Went out to check on it today, and it was just fine. It's nice to know you can seal with a window as short as an hour.

We looked it over, smiled about the great application job the crew did and the way the product set up, smiled and told the client to put the furniture back on to the deck and to enjoy it.

Beth

[Scott Paul 164]

Finally got rain here Friday, after a very very dry summer here in MD. It rained on a freshly sealed WT deck. Had thunderstorms off and on all weekend - most rain we have had in a while. Went out to check on it today, and it was just fine. It's nice to know you can seal with a window as short as an hour.

We looked it over, smiled about the great application job the crew did and the way the product set up, smiled and told the client to put the furniture back on to the deck and to enjoy it.

Beth

Was the overall color/appearence/application what you expected from using the Wood Tux "Classic" in the past? Good to hear that it held up from the rain as expected.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This was not the "classic" we put down, it was the "fixed" batch in between the "tacky" and "classic" batches. We should be getting to the classic soon. We will let you know how the "classic" goes down. This batch was still very slightly tacky on this deck (read very minor), but it had been raining and we attributed it to the increased moisture and humidity.

Beth :cup: :groovy3:

[RPetry 564]

Additional report.

This past Friday, we finished up an ipe' job with the "new", or "fixed" WT at about 4:00 PM. Around 10:00 PM that night, all *ell broke loose with thunder, lightning, high wind, and torrential downpours.

Stopped by the job early yesterday morning to check on the finish. After toweling off standing water from a portion of the last stained section, it appeared that the finish had not spotted or been effected by the heavy rain.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Additional report.

This past Friday, we finished up an ipe' job with the "new", or "fixed" WT at about 4:00 PM. Around 10:00 PM that night, all *ell broke loose with thunder, lightning, high wind, and torrential downpours.

Stopped by the job early yesterday morning to check on the finish. After toweling off standing water from a portion of the last stained section, it appeared that the finish had not spotted or been effected by the heavy rain.

And this, is exactly why we have sung its praises. We are not big on applying it to wet wood, but we love the way it handles weather and the durability.

Beth

[dpaull 80]

Yeah I definitely am ordering up some...I could be on schedule, instead I'm two days behind...the worst part is...

Last Thursday's forecast was rain ALL day...every hour, 60-70% chance...it never rained.

Same thing for Friday, except we did end up getting a few showers.

--

Beth, when you say you don't like to apply it to wet wood, do you wet the dry wood at all before application or mix the product with anything? Thanks.

Oh yeah, is that "buy wtw, get 100 free brochures" still going on? If so, at what site?

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

I for one am glad that you are finally obtaining the results you are looking for. I have been waiting to get your feedback on WT for years and hopefully it will be favorable.

Rod!~

Rod,

I don't quite know where to start. In Nov. 2005 I wrote up a detailed product review here on TGS when first using WT on PT wood.

While working in the neighborhood this spring, took a look at that deck. The vertical wood held up OK but the horizontal top rail and deck boards were nearly bare, very little stain remaining on the wood. The neighbor's deck which we did with RS six months earlier, in May of 2005, still had plenty of visible stain and pigment on the horizontal wood. The difference was like night and day.

Now maybe one neighbor used their deck more than the other. Maybe the WT customer "abused" their wood some way. I do not know. What I do know is that both decks were built at the same time with the same wood, and have the same exposure. Actually, the WT deck is more shaded.

Since that time I have ordered two other, different 5'ers of WT. One, formulated in the spring of 2006, was very thick and seemed similar to the 2005 product. Never used it, its still sitting in the garage. The other was for this job, and was part of the "non-drying" batch of stain. The stain was much less viscous and evenly blended compared to the two older WT pails. With Japan Dryer added, the vertcal wood finally cured in about 3 days, but the first two sections of horizontal wood was still tacky. The customer was not pleased and we wound up stripping it all off.

Before the expected howls of protest, the job was ipe' about 9 months old. This "non drying" batch may have been fine for softwoods such as PT or cedar, or even hardwoods such as mahogany that will take a good amount of stain. Sure did not cure correctly on ipe'.

Initially, we first did a very light strip / neutralize to get rid of some remaining Messmer's that had been applied by the builder in October 2006. Lambswooled the WT on the vertical wood, a small front porch, and part of the rear deck. Aside from the not curing problem, the vertical wood looked fine, while the horizontal deck section looked uneven or "mottled" a few days after application. Don't know if this was due to a non curing problem, using a lambswool rub instead of a "stain and wipe" method, the inherent nature of the stain after a few days, or not sanding the ipe' beforehand.

Did a test on 4 unstained deck boards. Sanded with a random orbital 60 grit and again lambswooled some WT. It still did not cure, which was expected, but the finish came out much better looking.

Then the wait. Spoke with Russell a few times on when a "corrected" batch of WT would be available. The customer liked the color of Ken's WoodZotic, so when that product was available, had the customer purchase it directly from Ken.

Stripped off all the old WT with 6 oz. / gal. of NaOH, neutralized with 6 oz. / gal. of oxalic, and rinsed the ipe' very well. The WT stripped off very easily, and though this was the "non curing" stain, I would assume the corrected or "classic" WT would strip the same.

Then we sanded with 60 grit. Handrail, flat fascia board, steps, stringers, front porch, and the full rear deck floors.

Again, lambswooled the WT (actually WoodZotic, which I assume is WT with a custom color) on the vertical wood. For the horizontal ipe', this time we natural bristle brushed the WoodZotic on the wood, allowed it to "sit" for ~ 10 minutes, and wiped up the excess with shop towels. Sunny, mid 80's that day, and the stain set up pretty quickly. Did not have any "shiney" spots.

Stopped by the job 3 days after finishing staining. Dried or cured fine. The balustrade vertical wood looked fine. The horizontal wood looked terrific where the ipe' had only been lightly stripped once of the Messmer's. The previously stained WT stripped twice horizontal ipe' still looked a bit uneven or mottled to my eye, but we did get paid for the job. Kind of surprised me as this ipe' was sanded, but maybe the finish evens out over time. Don't know as I have not been back. Did not take pictures as there was standing water and leaves all over the wood from a storm the previous night.

You asked for impressions of the product. First the good. The stain looks really terrific on ipe' as shown in the picture on the first page of this thread. The deck floor shown is part of the "once lightly stripped" ipe' and looks much better, but again, the twice stripped floor may have evened out. The section of balustrade shown was stripped twice and looks fine.

A gallon of WT lasts forever on ipe'. We probably got between 350-400 sq. ft. per gallon of stain.

Using lambswool to stain the vertical wood results in a very nice finish and is quick to do.

Now the downside. As we have and continue to use Ready Seal for nearly all our exterior wood staining, my impressions come from that perspective.

Maybe my timing is bad but it took 4 times before I received a WT product that I would consider well blended, of workable consistancy, and cures correctly. Hopefully, ESI has its formula now fixed and will supply a consistant product in the future. I would use WT / WoodZotic on ipe' again.

Applying WT on horizontal surfaces is a bit labor intensive. The "apply, wait awhile, and wipe off" method takes a lot of time. But being this was our first time, I'm sure productivity would increase with more experience. We went through a ton of shop towels on this job.

Cleanup is a real pain. My natural bristle brushes had to be cleaned three times in mineral spirits. Even the 5 gal. bucket holding the used shop towels needed a mineral spirit cleaning. I know that many WT contractors use sprayers and it would seem the expense of mineral spirits could get a bit much but even more problematic is getting rid of used mineral spirits in a legal and environmentally acceptable manner.

If we are back in the area this season, I'll stop by the job to see if the floor finish has evened out and take some pictures. I'll certainly make it there next year to see how the finish is holding up over time.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

I appreciate your frank and honest review. Aside from the results you saw on your initial test I would say that everything else you posted is consistent with results typical of most new users. Obviously the tacky issues have been resolved on this end. Everything else you mentioned is why we say that Wood-Tux has a bit of a learning curve. I will try to address each of your issues so that your next application experience will produce even more favorable results.

First just a general note about Ipe. . .

I have seen that muttled look before on Ipe restoration jobs. Wood-Tux does even out some as it cures, but it is likely that the muttled look is in the wood. Without sanding, it is often difficult to get that "like new" look on aged Ipe. This is particularly true if it has previously been finished with a product that was allowed to turn almost black.

350 - 400 square feet per gallon of coverage on Ipe is normal.

Application method is the key to achieving the best results with Wood-Tux. The main thing that causes contractors to have problems with the finish is over application. If you try to apply Wood-Tux the way you would an off-the-shelf product you will have over application issues. The minimum coverage you should expect on any wood 200 square feet per gallon.

Getting around the bend on the learning curve becomes a matter of controlling application. When it comes to Ipe, unless you are using an airless sprayer it is next to impossible not to over apply. This is the reason that almost everyone applies the product and then wipes off the excess stain.

You could save a lot of time on your application if you eliminate the "wait a while" step. Especially on a hardwood like Ipe. Simply applying the product and wiping the excess off should insure you get adequate penetration and protection. Sometimes on really old cedar wood it is advantageous to soak the surface and then wait a while but this is only because there is a lot more "soaking in" to do on a very dry porous wood.

In any case, as you get better at controlling your application rate, the amount of wiping or back brushing will be reduced. This will also reduce the amount of shop towels you use on the job. Please remember to place all used shop towels in a solution of stripper or a fire proof container. Spontaneous combustion can result from the improper disposal/storage of stain soaked rags and tarps.

One suggestion that I can make to reduce the amount of spirits you need to clean your brushes. . .

Since you've obviously got RS on hand, use it to "pre clean" your brushes. The mineral seal oil in RS will remove most of the Tux from your brush. At that point the brush should be as easy to clean as if you had used it to apply RS.

In the same way, spray equipment can be maintained with Woodrich Brand Timber Oil because it is a non drying oil like RS. This is sufficient for equipment that is in day to day use. Obviously for prolonged storage you would want to fully clean your equipment.

Beyond that the only thing I could suggest is that you try the Woodrich Brand Timber Oil on your next project. You will find it has a very familiar ease of use with a superior spread rate when compared to other paraffinic oil stains. It may be that you just prefer working with non drying type finishes.

Thanks again for the review and best of luck!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We have a crew at a repeat clients house right now, applying Wood Tux for a rush request. This client is a high profile banker, who loves to entertain. He has like 60 people coming tomorrow at 2pm. We sent the "classic" pails out with the crew this morning, they are sealing as I type, and we are confident that not only will it be dry tomorrow, but if we get those thunderstorms this afternoon (looks like a good chance we will), it's not an issue.

Thank you Russell, for bringing back the 'classic". It makes a difference.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Wow Russell.. that is the best dang straight forward post you made in awhile.. I am new user of course and but I must be a monkey's uncle if you didn't just hit on everything of importantance in working that product.

The part about airless (or hvlp), quik wiping hardwood (or hot weather) rings true to me as well as pre-oiling or post oiling things.

In the end I'm all about less slop and no drop so I doing everything I can to limit stain from coming in contact with anything but spray equipment and wood.. :)

[bigchaz 157]

All my brown sugar separates in the pail? My honey gold seems to be fine but I ordered them at the same time. No drying issues just wondering if I somehow have the bas brown sugar but the classic honey gold. Just a matter of shaking it up a bit on the brown sugar so maybe its just the tinting

[James 625]

It doesn't work you have to clean with spirits. Been there done that. Very hard to get used to .

[MMI Enterprises 289]

All my brown sugar separates in the pail? My honey gold seems to be fine but I ordered them at the same time. No drying issues just wondering if I somehow have the bas brown sugar but the classic honey gold. Just a matter of shaking it up a bit on the brown sugar so maybe its just the tinting

I wouldn't use it without a sticky test (oh I see you did) or a confirmation that the fixed (classic) does the seperation as well..No matter how many times I have asked the question it never got answered.. Since everyone should now have the fixed stuff in transparent containers it should be readily known.

Russell, Scott, Rod?.. what the vedict, does it point to anything?

[Russell Cissell 65]

The Brown Sugar has black pigment in it. The black seems to settle faster than any other color. If the pigment settles or the product seems to separate, stir it back together. It is not unusual for paints and stains to separate to some degree. You may not be used to seeing this because most products don't come in a clear container.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

All my brown sugar separates in the pail? My honey gold seems to be fine but I ordered them at the same time. No drying issues just wondering if I somehow have the bas brown sugar but the classic honey gold. Just a matter of shaking it up a bit on the brown sugar so maybe its just the tinting

We keep a drill and paddle handy. In some cases you just need it. It never ever hurts to mix a pail, even if it looks fine. Just a good practice to get into. Adding a simple step like this helps to ensure you get the best result with your product, regardless of what you are putting down.

Beth

[PressurePros 249]

Anyone that thinks WodTux separates has never used Baker's. You can count on a half inch of "goop" at the bottom of every pail.

[PressurePros 249]

We keep a drill and paddle handy. In some cases you just need it. It never ever hurts to mix a pail, even if it looks fine. Just a good practice to get into. Adding a simple step like this helps to ensure you get the best result with your product, regardless of what you are putting down.

Beth

Beth,

Are you using different pails of WT than the rest of us? ;-)

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Them quality hvlp pots by Binks have them agitators built in but they too rich fer me..I'll start useing a drill paddle on all product rather than relying on store shaking and my pouring into sprayer. Being stain or paint done in transparent containers on large scale is fairly new thing I for one had no idea just how fast the parts may stratify...

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Anyone that thinks WodTux separates has never used Baker's. You can count on a half inch of "goop" at the bottom of every pail.

Well the batch that had the drier fixed but was not the "classic" does need to be mixed. I have pics of it separated in unopened pails. We still have a few of those pails left. The classic ones are better, but a drill and paddle are just good practice. We also use other products for different types of jobs and some of those must be paddled before applying them.