Woodrich vs. Woodtux

[pmurf 14]

What is the difference between the Woodrich and Woodtux formulas? In reading some of the posts, it's my understanding that Woodrich is essentially an oil thinned version of Woodtux. If so, why offer a thinned version?

Am I missing something?

[PressurePros 249]

WoodTux is loaded with resin. On a scale of extreme viscosities it would be more towards maple syrup then it would be water. The oil makes it dive a bit deeper into the wood and makes it easier to work with. The caveat is decreased longevity or the requirement of a two coat application.

[pmurf 14]

Ken,

So I guess you are saying the Woodtux is a more topical solution while the Woodrich is penetrating. The ultimate question is if both give the same appearance, why use the Woodrich if the Woodtux lasts twice as long.

Thanks,

Phil

[Russell Cissell 65]

There are three versions of Woodrich Brand Stains & Sealers. The reason there are three versions is like Ken said, each one has it's caveats.

Timber Oil is a paraffinic oil based stain. It does carry 10% resin solids but that is primarily to help keep the pigments in suspension. Timber Oil is loaded with the same level of pigment used in Wood-Tux so the coverage rate is far better than you would get with most paraffinic stains. We also use the highest grade of oil available making Timber Oil a very low odor product. Has to be used on dry wood.

Stain & Seal has a much higher level of resin solids making it a curing finish. It's not as easy to use as Timber Oil but still not very challenging. Again, loaded with pigment, great coverage. Older wood often takes two coats if you want to load it. Can be applied to damp wood.

Wood-Tux/Wiping Stain is extremely high in both resin and pigment solids. Easy to over apply the first time if you have never worked with a heavy bodied product. Coverage in excess of 200 square feet/gal with a one coat application. Hardwoods coverage in excess of 350 - 400 square feet/gal. Can be applied to wet wood.

In a sense you can think of them as "oiled down" versions of Wood-Tux but in reality, only the percentage of oil to resin changes. The percentage of pigment and other solids is virtually identical.

[PressurePros 249]

Russell beat me to it.

[plainpainter 217]

I find the nuances between the stains to be cutting 'fine' hairs. The only reason to use woodrich, is because you have a crew or guys that can't deal with woodtux. I used woodtux on a mahogany deck - pics I posted here a couple of weeks ago - and this so called hard to penetrate wood - drank the woodtux like it was nobody's business. I passed a lambswool applicator with spirits over the top to make sure no excess was left over.

[pmurf 14]

Okay Russell, that being said what would you recommend for an advanced DIY'r on a newly installed Ipe deck.

I see you are in the area do you sell to non-contractors?

Phil

Collinsville, IL

[Russell Cissell 65]

I would recommend using the Woodrich Brand Hardwood Wiping Stain.

I would apply a medium coat to about 3 or 4 courses of wood. Then I would go back and wipe the excess stain off those boards using a dry rag lightly seasoned with mineral spirits. I would repeat that process across the deck, switching to a new rag each time one gets saturated with stain. (Be sure to place stain soaked rags in water to prevent spontaneous combustion.) The application on Ipe is more similar to furniture finishing than normal deck staining.

You should plan on doing maintenance about twice as often as you would expect with cedar.

If you call ahead, I can have the product waiting for you in will-call down town STL. If you prefer, you can order online at Wood Deck Cleaning & Sealing Products - ideal for wood siding and log homes And have it shipped to your door.

[pmurf 14]

Russell,

Thanks for the advise. I'll probably let the ipe 'season' until fall. I plan on sanding in the next week or so after I have finished plugging.

The finishing process doesn't seem too bad. I've 'experimented' for years with different finishing techniques on woodworking projects. While I've messed around with some exotic hardwoods in the past, this will be the first time with ipe and with an outdoor finish.

I'll be sure to give you a call. I will probably pick up to avoid the shipping charges.

Thanks again.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Because of the way the grain can raise on Ipe, and the fact that you don't gain any of the advantages typical of "seasoning" softer woods, I would recommend that you seal your wood right away. You will get a much nicer finish with the wood being new.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Because of the way the grain can raise on Ipe, and the fact that you don't gain any of the advantages typical of "seasoning" softer woods, I would recommend that you seal your wood right away. You will get a much nicer finish with the wood being new.

I am soooooooo sorry, but I am going to completely disagree with Russell. We work with numerous species of wood, lots of ipe, and have installed many finishes. (his included)

• softwoods like pine and cedar should be sealed right away due to the amount of shrinking etc they will go through within the first 30 days. In the case of a softwood, sealing sooner makes better sense due to more dimensional changes that will take place early on.
  
• as a hard wood, we have found that when you do apply a finish to ipe it will last longer if you let the wood season some first. We typically suggest letting ipe weather for a good 6 months. Otherwise you will only get a few short months of life out of the finish on an outdoor installation where the wood is exposed to the elements.
  
• It is darn near impossible to raise the grain on ipe. Penetration is linked directly to the wood's porosity, which when new is practically non-existent on ipe. As wood grays and ages, the wood fibers dry and open so that you can get more product into the wood. Let it age, then wash and buff lightly, then apply the finish.

Beth :cup:

[James 625]

dan, Mahogany becomes very porous with age it will suck up large amounts of oil. It's the main reason I would not use a straight drying oil that penetrates beyond the surface. It causes maintenance problems if you don't have a maintenance plan. For this reason WoodRich is the better selection. Also the wood fibers suck up the (non drying oil) re bulking them with moisture instead of having something just drying around them ( drying oil).

I take care of large amounts of Mahog..........

[RPetry 564]

Beth wrote:

as a hard wood, we have found that when you do apply a finish to ipe it will last longer if you let the wood season some first. We typically suggest letting ipe weather for a good 6 months. Otherwise you will only get a few short months of life out of the finish on an outdoor installation where the wood is exposed to the elements.

Yup. We are now advising customers with new ipe' to let it weather for a year before finishing. Either that are we are going to beat the snot out of it with sodium hydroxide. Don't know of any other alternative if you want a finish to last more than a heartbeat on new ipe'.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I will chime in another reason to season Hardwoods like Ipe';

The biggest reason is the extractive content which in hardwoods like Ipe' is much higher than most softwoods comparably.

This one factor makes the wood impermeable to stains and finishes making for a short life expectancy. A few months seasoning at least helps to deplete 'some' of what exists at the top level being treated with a stain or finish.

At that point a wash would be necessary to clean the surface and prepare it for the application.

In our experience using Wood Tux on hardwoods such as Ipe, Cambara, Teak and Brazilian Rosewood has endured longer after seasoning the wood.

Overall, it is your call but keep in mind that this wood will last considerably longer than pressure treated wood and is naturally resistant to insects and decay. The seasoning does not affect this ability in case you are wondering but it does help you to get the best bang for your buck that you have surely spent quite a lot of just in having the structure built.

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

I kind of disagree with the softwoods with Beth and Rod. I did two seperate ptp jobs - one where the deck aged 8-10 months - another where the wood had been installed 4-5 years ago. They both got the same prep - both stained with woodtux out of the same pail - the deck that was only 8 months old looks like crap - the step I stained that was 4-5 years old - looks brand new, same stain, out of the same pail, same wood, difference in age.

[plainpainter 217]

dan, Mahogany becomes very porous with age it will suck up large amounts of oil. It's the main reason I would not use a straight drying oil that penetrates beyond the surface. It causes maintenance problems if you don't have a maintenance plan. For this reason WoodRich is the better selection. Also the wood fibers suck up the (non drying oil) re bulking them with moisture instead of having something just drying around them ( drying oil).

I take care of large amounts of Mahog..........

Lot of people giving their expert opinion on this site, but Jim - you really back up your opinion with some good logic. I never thought about that.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

the deck that was only 8 months old looks like crap

How long ago was this? The CCA lumber that has been replaced with ACQ, and CA-B pressure treatments is pretty bad and problematic as a lumber to begin with. CCA was outlawed as of January 2004.

We sealed our deck right after it was built, and I think the wood is in better shape because of it.

Beth

[Celeste 341]

I kind of disagree with the softwoods with Beth and Rod. I did two seperate ptp jobs - one where the deck aged 8-10 months - another where the wood had been installed 4-5 years ago. They both got the same prep - both stained with woodtux out of the same pail - the deck that was only 8 months old looks like crap - the step I stained that was 4-5 years old - looks brand new, same stain, out of the same pail, same wood, difference in age.

This is comparing spots & stripes.....new ptp (1 yr or less) versus wood that is 4-5 years old ..... Like Beth said as well, the wood treatment changes in that time period would be a mitigating factor. Even now, there are a variety of pressure treated woods on the market that could and do affect sealer application.

Softwoods go through too many changes in the early period after installation, it just makes sense to minimize the effects by treating it early and then frequently if necessary in order to maximize the longevity of the wood.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Can't entirely agree with the logic posed of not sealing Ipe from get go.

I see it that there are many things to consider..

For your consideration I point to conversation in Rick's ipe thread below.

Letting it season only rings true to me if it can be proven that a deck that was sealed from get go every year or so is STILL a very fickle character compared to the one that went 6 month or so before it got it's first.

I just can't say I've seen a shread of evidence saying either deck would not be well situated to take stain a few year in so I have to relate the topic to being about trying to save money rather than providing initial asthetics.

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/10202-thoughts-oxalic-ipe-5.html#post128154

Thanx Rick. I see what yer saying and figured the months that other deck held the stains work out to 7 mon. and then 9 mon.... but are you saying your deck is way older and underwent a couple cycles before ya aged it all free of stain for that year?

I would think one of those stains lasting better than another would be due to both the stain itself and the deck history/amount of seasons.

Just want to clarify the age differences and seasoning as heck for sure a 7-9 mon. versus a full year or more is a worthy thing to confirm. I mean in the long term over 30 years that is only 30 services versus 45 services....although we all know full well eventually after only a few or more year they both will have about same seasoning and end up getting a year off a stain. Especially considering the one that fails early will end up seeing more age time due to folks being more likely to let it go a few month being bare if not due to economics then due to deck work seasons not meshing with when it actually needs done. Can't do a deck if the snow is still falling..

Think I would go ahead and stain for aesthetics and count on things catching up eventually. This doesn't even allow for possability of aging from get go by stripping. Isn't that what Rod or others are doing?.....Hello, Anybody gettin a year or more off a 2 year old ipe to verfy the possability of not aging for a year??

Russell, you said heaps here mang!! very smart thing to point out... "In a sense you can think of them as "oiled down" versions of Wood-Tux but in reality, only the percentage of oil to resin changes. The percentage of pigment and other solids is virtually identical. "

[James 625]

Dan ,many things I say now I have said for over 10 years. It's the results of doing repeated maint's and concluded which way is best for the customer and me. I was taking care of hardwoods before they became popular. Which was trial and error but I could tell what was the wrong and difficult way. I still take care of the very first Mahog deck and it looks GREAT.

Rain is stopping off to strip an UpayME deck. Stripping now ! Clean and oil in the spring..........

Sir Knowledgewood, your source of wood wisdom !!

[Proclean 14]

Can't resist.

OK. The left side of the 1 year old Ipe board has been sanded. The right side is weathered for 1 year. The top of the left hand side has been sanded & stained. The lower left hand side has just been sanded. Look at the right hand side. Who would spend 20K plus to say wait 1 year and we'll make your deck deck new. I sell my decks on looks and how I can make them always look great.

I will only comment on this thread is that my customer wants the best looking deck from day one. Maybe instead of being the "expert" listen to what the customer want and expects.

Paul

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We all listen to our clients (one would HOPE) but if they ask for an opinion, they will get one. If they want it done sooner, no problem. At least they go into it knowing the sealer will not last as long, and that is their choice. Some want to wait, some don't. Either way, they always appreciate the information and the choice. Another nice thing about ipe, you can just wash it and let it go if you want the patina. We do quite a bit of ipe and other hard woods. Have for years. Love the stuff.

Beth :seeya:

[RPetry 564]

Can't resist.

OK. The left side of the 1 year old Ipe board has been sanded. The right side is weathered for 1 year. The top of the left hand side has been sanded & stained. The lower left hand side has just been sanded. Look at the right hand side. Who would spend 20K plus to say wait 1 year and we'll make your deck deck new. I sell my decks on looks and how I can make them always look great.

I will only comment on this thread is that my customer wants the best looking deck from day one. Maybe instead of being the "expert" listen to what the customer want and expects.

Paul

Paul,

Different business models. Many, if not most specializing in exterior wood, build long term relationships with their customers. By definition, that means maintenance. By gross sales each season, that means a skewed geometric business growth over time.

Most of us can make ipe' look like God's gift to man, day one. WT, RS, BM, Assie Oil, Penofin, Messmer's, Sikkens, F&P, Behr's, CWF, does not matter. What matters is value to the customer.

Attached are two pics of WT on unweathered, "unseasoned" ipe'. Six months of NJ weathering over the winter. No sun exposure to speak of. Job was ~ $ 2K out of his pocket. Not a stain fault, a wood prep fault.

Think the customer is happy? Think again.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Paul,

Different business models. Many, if not most specializing in exterior wood, build long term relationships with their customers. By definition, that means maintenance. By gross sales each season, that means a skewed geometric business growth over time.

Most of us can make ipe' look like God's gift to man, day one. WT, RS, BM, Assie Oil, Penofin, Messmer's, Sikkens, F&P, Behr's, CWF, does not matter. What matters is value to the customer.

Attached are two pics of WT on unweathered, "unseasoned" ipe'. Six months of NJ weathering over the winter. No sun exposure to speak of. Job was ~ $ 2K out of his pocket. Not a stain fault, a wood prep fault.

Think the customer is happy? Think again.

Exactly! ;)

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Exactly! ;)

Beth

Beth,

Hah! That is the 2nd straight time we have agreement. Guess a few yrs. in the wood business experience climbs towards the peak of the pyramid!