Our Armstrong Clark experience

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This week we used Armstrong Clark, and we have to say we were impressed. This product gets two discriminating thumbs up - WAY up for several reasons....

• product support - great company to work with
  
• easy of use and application....don't have to finesse it into looking even
  
• colors to choose from
  

I'm going to attach a couple of photos of a restoration job we just finished. The AC is on the deck floor. (the house had another product installed) The deck and home are both 3 years old and constructed of white cedar. The finish that had to be removed was Menwood.

I could get very, VERY used to this product. Durability will be the next thing we look closely at. I'm sure Rod will chime in also.

Beth

Edited September 8, 2008 by Beth n Rod
forgot a photo

[newlook 265]

That is VERY sweet.....dang.....hot dang....hot dingdy dang.....I want to get up and slap someone!!! :dancing:

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Very odd, the two "after" pictures look like very different stains. The middle pic, fdporchafter.jpg is a nice rich light brown, while the fdporchafter2.jpg is a shocking yellow, similar to the 1st Menwood pic. What color A-C did you use and which pic is representative?

A-C longetivity is important. But more important are the steps needed for maintenance prep. Seems to be some concern that the original stain will have to be removed before a "maintenance" staining.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thanks Carlos! :) I'll post some photos of the whole house later... We're discussing doing the interior this winter. It has never been done, and the owner is interested. ;)

Beth :banana: :cheers:

[Ron Musgraves 240]

That is Sweet

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Rick, I missed that concern about maintenance prep.. who has said such or eluded to it besides you? I haven't seen anything justifying such concern. Please point me to what you refer to..thanx. :)

Beth, I too noticed the color difference Rick mentioned. Which pic is more representative of final outcome?. 3rd pic is awseome!

Edited September 8, 2008 by MMI Enterprises

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Beth,

Very odd, the two "after" pictures look like very different stains. The middle pic, fdporchafter.jpg is a nice rich light brown, while the fdporchafter2.jpg is a shocking yellow, similar to the 1st Menwood pic. What color A-C did you use and which pic is representative?

A-C longetivity is important. But more important are the steps needed for maintenance prep. Seems to be some concern that the original stain will have to be removed before a "maintenance" staining.

The one after photo where I was looking down the deck, the light was poor and the flash was off. Maybe I should post the one with the flash on? The sun was in the front so when I snapped that one (entry shot) it was much brighter.

The color was a cross between the cedar semi transparent and the redwood. It was 50/50. The boards were covered under the porch, so pretty new, not real absorbent. The color on the house was bronze.

Yeah I am concerned about "maintenance" too, and hoping Jake will answer some questions for Rod via phone.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick, I missed that concern about maintenance prep.. who has said such or eluded to it besides you? I haven't seen anything justifying such concern. Please point me to what you refer to..thanx. :)

Beth, I too noticed the color difference Rick mentioned. Which pic is more representative of final outcome?. 3rd pic is awseome!

Both are accurate.... the side porch is next to trees and doesn't get much light, so it always looks darker due to shadows. The front is wide open and gets lots of light so it is always brighter off the deck floor. The deck is lighter than the house. Under the porch looks darker due to light. Trust me, it's not.

I was amazed the floor looked as light as it did, but then it is white cedar...this house was not a kit either. It was a custom built white cedar home. Logs were hand cut on the job site by chainsaw.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

They were good with color apparently so that is what counts.

[Scott Paul 164]

Looks great! What made you mix those two colors together?

Edited September 9, 2008 by Scott Paul

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Looks great! What made you mix those tow colors together?

We thought it would look good with the Bronze on the house.... ;)

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ok... I spoke to Jake Clark last night regarding maintenance with this product. There are a few things you need to keep in mind, none of which are enough to cause concern, as they do apply to other products as well. Here we go, I have my coffee!!! :cup:

• If applying a semi-solid over a semi-solid yes it will create a situation where the remaining visible wood grain is diminished from view and the effect is more solid. This is true of semi-solids in general (such as Cabot's as an example), you need to know this (so does the customer) before the finish goes down. Solution: Do maintenance with the clear if the color is still even, or the toner product. :cup:
  

• If applying the semi-transparent over the semi-transparent, it becomes a question of wear, time passed since the initial application, etc. If the client wants annual maintenance, give it a light wash if plenty of pigment remains, do the maintenance with the toner or clear, since just like sooooo many other products, you can build color if it is still really intact. If it has been a few years, you may be able to use the semi-transparent just fine. Look at the deck after it has been washed and you'll see what pigment remains. :cup:
  

• If you applied the toner, don't sweat it at all. Wash and seal as normal. :cup:
  

You do not have to strip - read this again folks....you do NOT have to strip prior to applying the maintenance coat if you step down to a lower solid item for your maintenance coat. :dancing:

Beth

p.s. both thumbs are STILL WAY UP!!!

Edited September 9, 2008 by Beth n Rod
spelling

[RPetry 564]

Ok... I spoke to Jake Clark last night regarding maintenance with this product. There are a few things you need to keep in mind, none of which are enough to cause concern, as they do apply to other products as well. Here we go, I have my coffee!!! :cup:

• If applying a semi-solid over a semi-solid yes it will create a situation where the remaining visible wood grain is diminished from view and the effect is more solid. This is true of semi-solids in general (such as Cabot's as an example), you need to know this (so does the customer) before the finish goes down. Solution: Do maintenance with the clear if the color is still even, or the toner product. :cup:
  

• If applying the semi-transparent over the semi-transparent, it becomes a question of wear, time passed since the initial application, etc. If the client wants annual maintenance, give it a light wash if plenty of pigment remains, do the maintenance with the toner or clear, since just like sooooo many other products, you can build color if it is still really intact. If it has been a few years, you may be able to use the semi-transparent just fine. Look at the deck after it has been washed and you'll see what pigment remains. :cup:
  

• If you applied the toner, don't sweat it at all. Wash and seal as normal. :cup:
  

You do not have to strip - read this again folks....you do NOT have to strip prior to applying the maintenance coat if you step down to a lower solid item for your maintenance coat. :dancing:

Beth

p.s. both thumbs are STILL WAY UP!!!

Beth,

It sounds a bit complicated, "stepping down" in pigment and product, but in practice may be easy. Time will tell.

One question remains on maintenance. From what I understand, A-C is ~ 1/3 linseed oil (drying), 1/3 paraffinic oil (non-drying), and 1/3 solvent. Plus pigments, mildewcides, resins etc.

If in fact a maintenance job has a fairly intact surface linseed oil/pigment after washing, will a reapplication of A-C linseed/paraffinic oils penetrate through the existing old finish?

It is not just the build up of pigments hiding the grain of the wood, it is the potential of build up of oils on the surface. I have seen straight paraffinic oil stain, ie: Ready Seal, penetrate through some linseed oil stains, but not others. Not sure why.

Maybe someone on TGS that has used A-C stains, particularly their semi-trans products, for a number of years, can let us know of their preferred prep and results of one or more maintenance stainings.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Beth,

It sounds a bit complicated, "stepping down" in pigment and product, but in practice may be easy. Time will tell.

One question remains on maintenance. From what I understand, A-C is ~ 1/3 linseed oil (drying), 1/3 paraffinic oil (non-drying), and 1/3 solvent. Plus pigments, mildewcides, resins etc.

If in fact a maintenance job has a fairly intact surface linseed oil/pigment after washing, will a reapplication of A-C linseed/paraffinic oils penetrate through the existing old finish?

It is not just the build up of pigments hiding the grain of the wood, it is the potential of build up of oils on the surface. I have seen straight paraffinic oil stain, ie: Ready Seal, penetrate through some linseed oil stains, but not others. Not sure why.

Maybe someone on TGS that has used A-C stains, particularly their semi-trans products, for a number of years, can let us know of their preferred prep and results of one or more maintenance stainings.

Rick, I do not think it will be a problem provided the product is permeable, which I would believe it is based upon experience with similar things and conversations. This may sound difficult, but trust me it isn't. We dealt with potential color build up issues with Wood Tux, and it was possible to maintain the desired look.

The parafinnic oil will dive to moisturize. The linseed oil will cure near the surface and lock in the UV protection. It is NOT impermeable, thus you should be able to apply a maintenance coat just fine, the biggest issue will be how much color do you want to add at maintenance time....

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Sounds good, and should be easy enough to test on a few species of sample boards. Not sure that I am that ambitious this year, cannot even get to my own ipe' deck!

[Russell Cissell 65]

Rick

If the product is 30% solvent it would not be VOC compliant for the NE Corridor. If I'm not mistaken compliance requires a total VOC of less than 2 LB per gallon. Am I missing something?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick

If the product is 30% solvent it would not be VOC compliant for the NE Corridor. If I'm not mistaken compliance requires a total VOC of less than 2 LB per gallon. Am I missing something?

Russell,

It IS VOC compliant. I suggest you speak to your competition directly...or look at the data sheets, rather than speculate here. It's their formula, not yours.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Rick

If the product is 30% solvent it would not be VOC compliant for the NE Corridor. If I'm not mistaken compliance requires a total VOC of less than 2 LB per gallon. Am I missing something?

Russell,

It is entirely possible that I am mistaken, the numbers I posted came from memory of conversations with Jake Clark a few months ago. As far as I know, the oils are ~ half paraffinic, half linseed. I seem to remember Jake correcting me with the 1/3rd, 1/3rd, 1/3rd part but I may be confused. After all, social security is in sight!

I'm not sure about Ca. VOC regs, but would assume that they are at least as strict as the Northeast.

Did I read somewhere that the rest of the country will be on these restrictions soon?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Russell,

It is entirely possible that I am mistaken, the numbers I posted came from memory of conversations with Jake Clark a few months ago. As far as I know, the oils are ~ half paraffinic, half linseed. I seem to remember Jake correcting me with the 1/3rd, 1/3rd, 1/3rd part but I may be confused. After all, social security is in sight!

I'm not sure about Ca. VOC regs, but would assume that they are at least as strict as the Northeast.

Did I read somewhere that the rest of the country will be on these restrictions soon?

Yes, they were pushing for 2009, but it may be 2010, but the entire US will soon be compliant.

Armstrong Clark is a quality company and I am sure their products are compliant and manufactured and shipped within the letter of the law. Not one doubt in my mind.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Wonderful! Now the rest of the country can suffer what we have been through these last 4 years!

Russell,

I just looked through A-C's online MSDS sheets. The formula is 25% solvents across all product lines.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

For my experience, the product worked very well in the fact that it applied well.

Application method was through a Titan 440i sprayer 1200 psi setting. We back padded it and the coverage was very even and did not lap. I gave it every opportunity as well.

The finish was even and while penetration was evident, it did not just disappear and leave the surface begging for more sporadically.

The wood was white cedar 2 X 4's butted together over cedar poles for supports.

Age: approximately 3 years old and only ever treated with menwood harvest gold.

It was stripped off with HD-80 at 4 oz/gal with 633-add @ 1 qt/5gal bucket

The strip was complete without much fuzzing and the only sanding was to remove overspray around the support poles of the permachink product applied to all the logs.

With the exception of the odor, it was a nice product to work with. My only question is obviously the durability of this particular finish on cedar even though it is covered by an extensive porch.

The lighter side with all the sun is going to be the test as the other side gets virtually no direct sun at all. I only question the durability due to the low pigment content but from what I have been told, it should last 2 years in this particular installation. More to come on that.

Rod!~

Edited September 9, 2008 by Beth n Rod
grammar

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

We stripped and applied A-C rustic brown semi-trans to a western red cedar deck a few months ago. With some exceptions, our experience was similar.

For my experience, the product worked very well in the fact that it applied well. Application method was through a Titan 440i sprayer 1200 psi setting. We back padded it and the coverage was very even and did not lap. I gave it every opportunity as well.

The finish was even and while penetration was evident, it did not just disappear and leave the surface begging for more sporadically.

We did have some problem with lapping. This was my fault in not instructing my helper correctly. I left to do an estimate and he started "cutting in" by the rear wall of the home, as we normally do with Ready Seal. Even after an "even" or "non cutting in" second application, the lap marks were not as bad but evident to my eye. This was done in full sunlight but not a particularly hot day as I recall. The complete job was hand brushed.

With the exception of the odor, it was a nice product to work with. My only question is obviously the durability of this particular finish on cedar even though it is covered by an extensive porch.

Our job gets full sun and weather exposure as it is a regular deck. As it is located in a regularly traveled area, I will be able to check on durability from time to time. But it kind of "felt" that the product should be fine for length of service, and we did get two separate stainings in/on the cedar. We will see and I'll try to remember to report back.

The lighter side with all the sun is going to be the test as the other side gets virtually no direct sun at all. I only question the durability due to the low pigment content but from what I have been told, it should last 2 years in this particular installation. More to come on that.

My impression was opposite. We used the Rustic Brown color in the semi-trans line and I thought there was a whole lot of pigment. The stain kind of masked some of the cedar grain without becoming opaque, much more so than Ready Seal or ESI's Timber Oil. Also appeared to have some clay pigments as opposed to straight iron oxides. If so, that might explain part of the heavy pigment impression.

[Celeste 341]

Rick,

In a conversation with Jake today, specifically about the Rustic Brown, he did indicate to me that two coats of the Rustic Brown would indeed take you to nearly a semi-solid finish, which could be the lack of transparency you achieved with two brushed applications.

Celeste

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

In a conversation with Jake today, specifically about the Rustic Brown, he did indicate to me that two coats of the Rustic Brown would indeed take you to nearly a semi-solid finish, which could be the lack of transparency you achieved with two brushed applications.

Celeste

Celeste,

No doubt. I am not being critical of the stain, it is just different in pigmentation compared to straight paraffinics such as RS or Timber Oil. This was in response to Rod's statement, "I only question the durability due to the low pigment content ..." Though a different color, it was the same product line, semi-transparent. I found the amount of pigmentation greater than that of the above stains.

Two pics, one of the "lapping" mentioned in a post above. Contractor error, certainly no fault of the stain. The pic is a single, initial coat. This was mostly corrected by a second application of stain on the deck floor.

Second pic is after two coats on the deck floor, with the original single coat on all the vertical wood. With the single coat on the vertical wood, the cedar is certainly more heavily pigmented than either RS or our one time experience with ESI's Timber Oil. Not better or worse, just different.

Dependent on wood species, exposure, and condition, we are getting 2 to 3 years on horizontal wood with RS before a quick cleaning and single application of more oil. I would certainly hope to get that lifetime, and possibly a little more, out of Armstrong-Clark's semi-trans stains.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Celeste,

No doubt. I am not being critical of the stain, it is just different in pigmentation compared to straight paraffinics such as RS or Timber Oil. This was in response to Rod's statement, "I only question the durability due to the low pigment content ..." Though a different color, it was the same product line, semi-transparent. I found the amount of pigmentation greater than that of the above stains.

Two pics, one of the "lapping" mentioned in a post above. Contractor error, certainly no fault of the stain. The pic is a single, initial coat. This was mostly corrected by a second application of stain on the deck floor.

Second pic is after two coats on the deck floor, with the original single coat on all the vertical wood. With the single coat on the vertical wood, the cedar is certainly more heavily pigmented than either RS or our one time experience with ESI's Timber Oil. Not better or worse, just different.

Dependent on wood species, exposure, and condition, we are getting 2 to 3 years on horizontal wood with RS before a quick cleaning and single application of more oil. I would certainly hope to get that lifetime, and possibly a little more, out of Armstrong-Clark's semi-trans stains.

It's good to know it can lap. We don't cut in. That's why. Also since we used WT heavily for so long we have learned to finesse product to get it to look even...But, your photo does give an example of how over application in spots can lead to a splotchy deck. Random touch up can do that too.

Beth

:cup: :sunshine:

[Ron G. 14]

Celeste,

Two pics, one of the "lapping" mentioned in a post above. Contractor error, certainly no fault of the stain. The pic is a single, initial coat. This was mostly corrected by a second application of stain on the deck floor.

.

Rick, not trying to hijack, but you say the lapping "was mostly corrected by a second application of stain on the deck floor".

First, How to avoid lapping in this situation?

Second, when lapping occurs what steps can be taken to lessen or correct?

Thanks, Ron (extreme wood novice).