Ipe' stain shoot out

[RPetry 564]

Last year, it was a citric - oxalic acid prep comparison on ipe'. The results were inconclusive. This year, it is a stain appearance and longitivity comparison.

Finally got around to working on my own ipe' deck. Wood was lightly stripped (3 oz./gal. NaOH) and washed, followed by a citric acid brightening. Citric was allowed to dry on the wood but overnight rains probably rinsed it off anyway. Sanded lightly with a RO with 60 grit.

As Armstrong-Clark has gotten a lot of attention this year, decided to stain with their "rustic brown" color to test for the full deck. But kept a floor board open for other products.

Left to right in the picture. Armstrong-Clark rustic brown, WoodTux warm honey gold, Defy - Deck Stains for Hardwoods, cedar tone color (water based), Benjamin Moore Alkyd Transparent Hardwood Finish - natural 321 10 color, Ready Seal light brown color.

The picture was taken immediately after application. All stains except the areas of the Defy are still wet.

Thanks to Scott Paul for the Defy sample, Jake Clark for the Armstrong-Clark stain, and Benjamin Moore for their new hardwood stain sample. These were provided free of charge.

The Ready Seal and WoodTux were purchased by my company for customer jobs.

[mas3372 14]

Great info Rick, as usual thanks. I feel foolish for not even thinking about raising the grain and the sanding to help curb that. I will certainly do it that way. I checked the samples, it was actually Medium Red I had. I am thinking about going with the Natural Cedar to start in the redwood only formula as recommended by Ready Seal. How do you feel about which formula to usa. For intensive purposes, Cumaru is almost identicle as Ipe, so which would you use for Ipe? Thanks again.

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

I don't think the "redwood only" formula is either needed or wanted on ipe' or similar wood. To be honest, I don't think it is necessary on even redwood, old growth or otherwise.

Peirce of Ready Seal came up and helped on a 50+ yr. old redwood restoration last year. We put down a regular med. red on a test board and it initially came up a muddy black. The next day, less than 24 hrs. later, this same very old redwood board was a rich brown with tints of red.

I'd stay with the regular formula, have never seen RS with a pigment problem on hardwoods.

[mas3372 14]

Thanks so much Rick. I will be cleaning it on Thursday day, Sanding and staining over next weekend with weather permitting. I plan on a light sodium hyrdroxide to to remove as much oil as possible and neutrilize with an oxalic and citric blend. No stain on it now, just 7 months of weather, but I want to break down as much natural oil as possible to help penetration. Probably just rent a floor sander to sand it to save time and use some 80 grit. Then throw on some natural cedar to start off with and then judge if I would want it a bit darker. Wish me luck. Thanks again.

[RPetry 564]

Mike,

I am not familiar with cumaru but if it anything like ipe', go ahead and beat the snot out of it with NaOH. You can't hurt it and it will help leach out more of the natural surface extractives so a stain may take for more than a few months. You will be amazed the first time, the rinse water will look like blood.

Ipe' is the only wood that we brighten with straight oxalic acid. Seems to be more effective in opening up the wood than citric or a blend.

Best thing I ever did with my own ipe' was strip, brighten, sand, and just let weather for a year. After cleaning and brightening, we were able to hand brush 2 separate apps. of RS into the ipe' and the stain slowly faded but lasted for a year.

[fireandrain 39]

Rick,

Great to hear that your season is about to begin! On that IPE which you plan to seal with RS... Which color do you like? Have you ever used RS Dark Red on Ipe?

[fireandrain 39]

Rick,

Another note. Interesting observation re: straight oxalic on Ipe. I had never heard that before. I'm doing a restore on a set of IPE's next week myself. Decks were built a year ago and "sealed" with Peno-Fail. Well-intentioned son of homeowner went at trying to remove the failing finish with a pressure washer....quite a mess w/ stop start lines all over the floor. Good thing it was Ipe!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ok, I guess I should have been more specific. Also, I realize the pics below are not of Ipe but they are to support my post earlier and to clarify. Sorry if it takes away from the topic Rick.

The product did not turn blue, the residue left in the wood made the wood itself turn blue which most would like to think was natural blue stain but in this case it wasn't.

These pics should help:

1st one shows before stripping, 2nd is after stripping, 3rd is dry and prepping before realizing it needs to be sanded to remove the blueing, 4th is before prepping (sorry out of sequence here), 5th is sealed.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Beth n Rod

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

http://saversystems.com/Product%20Data%20Sheets/hardwood.pdf

Middle column, under "NOTE" this is also knows as bluing, and is what Rod is referring to.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

Great to hear that your season is about to begin! On that IPE which you plan to seal with RS... Which color do you like? Have you ever used RS Dark Red on Ipe?

Matt,

Ipe' is strange as a range of RS med. and dk. colors does not seem to make that much of a difference, the exception being light brown which is too light. Have only used a mix of dk. brown/dk. red on true mahogany, which is similar. The attached pic is RS medium red, which I prefer.

A 6 - 8 oz./gal. of straight oxalic is pretty rough stuff for most woods and IMO too harsh for wood, ipe' being the exception. Just as we do not clean wood with NaOH, on ipe' we will at full strength just to chemically leach out the natural oils/extractives so a stain will bind.

[fireandrain 39]

Makes sense, Rick. Is the photo you attached (handrail) an RS Med Red/ Dk. Brown mix? Like Chocolate. Me liketh.

[James 625]

I would not sand anything on new Ipe or Camaru. I would not beat the crap out of it with Noah. Just clean and brighten. The wood that soaks up the RS will be sanded off.

[mas3372 14]

I need to sand it, there are a ton of splinters from the construction phase. I don't plan on taking off layers of wood, just smooth it over a bit.

[RPetry 564]

I would not sand anything on new Ipe or Camaru. I would not beat the crap out of it with Noah. Just clean and brighten. The wood that soaks up the RS will be sanded off.

Jim,

Can you get any RS into the ipe' without many months or a year of weathering? Its been my impression that if your customer wants to stain new or nearly new ipe', you want to remove as much top extractives as possible so a linseed will bind, or a paraffinic penetrate.

Sanding may be to strong, but we do use random orbitals with 60 grit to remove the fuzz that seems to occur when cleaning with a pressure washer. To get that even, picture type finish, especially with drying oils like WoodTux, in my limited experience it seems necessary.

Hmm, maybe scrub the wood and rinse without a PW. That might eliminate the fuzzies?

[plainpainter 217]

If you want a linseed based stain to bind to new ipe - you will have to saponify the natural oils out of the wood - and you need NaOH to do that. And follow with a harsh 8-9 oz/gallon straight oxalic to 'burn' the sugars and tannins out. Timberoil which is nearly identical to readyseal, I think, doesn't even want to penetrate new pressure treated from my experience - let alone ipe?

[RPetry 564]

Makes sense, Rick. Is the photo you attached (handrail) an RS Med Red/ Dk. Brown mix? Like Chocolate. Me liketh.

Matt,

No. It is regular RS medium red, on a piece of ipe' that happens to be dark.

Just prepped a 3 yr. old ipe' today, first job of the season. Put down RS. med. red and A-C super cedar after using a blow dryer to dry the wood. Both still wet when I left the job site.

Pics upcoming in a while, its rain showers here for the next few days, so it will be a while till I get back to it.

[Scott Paul 164]

http://saversystems.com/Product%20Data%20Sheets/hardwood.pdf

Middle column, under "NOTE" this is also knows as bluing, and is what Rod is referring to.

Beth

NOTE: The "wet" color of DEFY Deck Stain for Hardwoods has a cloudy/

milky appearance but will dry to a beautiful, semi-transparent finish.

Beth I believe this is referring to what the product looks like in the can prior to application.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Scott,

Products that are part or all acrylic (doesn't matter) can show this phenomenon either during installation or removal. That's all we are saying, have seen it with various products.

Hope this helps.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Matt,

Attached are two pics of Ready Seal medium red on ipe'. Stain is still wet, will lose the shiny look and dry to a matte finish. Will also lighten up just a shade in a week or two.

What a day. So cold this morning, went up to the job site around noon to defur and hopefully stain this ipe'. 45 degrees at ground level and spent the afternoon dodging periods of snow flurries! Not ipe' staining weather. Only reason I got a pic of a patch of decking floor was a brush out of a small bucket spill while staining the handrail.

Somewhere it is Spring. Not in NJ.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Beth I have seen blue or green-blue wood but it wasn't anything to do with stain removal as it was on bare wood and assume it is due to wood treating process or reaction before a finisher gets their hands on it. That said, there is a blue portion of coloring that is involved in reaching some stain and paint colors that we can't see when the color is whole and maybe it is harder to remove or maybe it can seperate out or penetrates deeper into some woods...although I don't recall it being all that common or in high percentage in the most common colors.

I'll assume you have some basis for yer blue thingy as I feel anything is possable when it comes to wood getting stained by treatments. All it takes is a ph reaction to metalic salts. For instance copper (copper sulfate, or cupic chloride) makes blue and all yer green colors when reacting or oxidizing and is used for concrete staining. We also know that it's taken role in products for it's ability to prevent algia, mold, or insect damage.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Was Omax considered for this test?. Would liked to have seen it go against Defy. It is on some fence I done over past two year and it still looks great.

[Scott Paul 164]

Was Omax considered for this test?. Would liked to have seen it go against Defy. It is on some fence I done over past two year and it still looks great.

Kevin, IPE verticals will last 2-3 years with most stains. It's the horizontals that's the problem.

[GAPainter 14]

Rick, you think the AC will hold up better than Ready Seal? I am looking for something new to use on Ipe. I have been using penofin and am defenitely looking for something different. I looked at about 800 sqft of Ipe the other day and she didn't know what was on it. I am looking for something to try on Ipe that will last longer than penofin. Also what type of coverage are you getting on Ipe with Ready Seal and AC ? thanks

[RPetry 564]

Rick, you think the AC will hold up better than Ready Seal? ...

Keith,

I think stain lifetime comparing RS and A-C on ipe' depends on the condition of the ipe'. On very weathered ipe' with no stain for a year, I can get two separate brush applications of RS into ipe', and it will last ~ 1 year. On newer ipe' and ipe' that has been continuously maintained, AC may last a bit longer due to the drying linseed oil at the surface.

Both stains will go a long way on ipe', maybe 300 - 400 sq. ft. per gallon. Just a guess, as I have never used A-C on ipe'.

Edit: Dumb statement, I have A-C on my own ipe'!

Edited April 12, 2009 by RPetry
stupidity

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Kevin, IPE verticals will last 2-3 years with most stains. It's the horizontals that's the problem.

Oh yea for sure.. this topic is about ipe after all and I forgot that on that second post in thinking about waterborne products. One thing I tend to do when thinking of a fairly decent waterborne for wood in general is to think of Omax..

Now but to move onward. I wonder what exactly this synthetic is in the Defy product. I've noticed that many times the manufactures turn to synonym use so that a products ingredients do not sound like the same old ball of wax or to not scare folks that have certain ideas about a ingredient in their heads. Two such fear inducing ingredients would be the use of epoxy or urethane. Doesn't Defy market their product as having epoxy in it?.. foregive if mistake, at least one of the products did anyways. In another field of floor care I tend to prefure products 'fortified' with just a tad of flexable urethane myself. For wood I'v only noticed it listed a time or two.

[charlie 14]

MMI

Try it you will like it. Defy has there original version, epoxy version, hardwood version, extreme version. None of the products are the same.

Edited April 11, 2009 by charlie