Why I am going with A.C.

[plainpainter 217]

Choosing deck stains the past few years has been troublesome at best. My frustrations have been - as much as my customers have dropped their jaws from the final finish - and despite the fact I have used every trick in the book - there is still something amiss in my eyes with the finish.

Now there is this competitor in my area - and they did this deck by the roadside last summer - I drive by it as least once a week - and it looked beautiful the day they put it on - and almost a year later - the deck looks totally rocking - Except for a single vein {wood has tricky spots, nothing you can do} the deck truly has an appearance that has not faded one iota!

I have almost swallowed my pride on several occasions and nearly stopped to knock on the guy's door and ask if they know what product was used, but I restrained for many reasons. The finish is that gorgeous.

So I go on this competitor's website and they mention the stain they use has over 75% solids. So I start looking through the different manufacturers to check out what the solids content are - thinking perhaps TWP 500 series is such - but no, I try others. Then I do a search and find an article and link to A.C.'s website - lo and behold their semi-trans is 75% solids - PAYDIRT!!!

I've been drooling over this deck for about a year now! Now I have the confirmation of what the product is. Like I said - you use every trick up your sleeve to make sure a job turns out well and looks great - and even though the customer loves it - you just know it should be so much better. And I know my competitor doesn't really prep nearly as much as I do. So now I am really looking forward to using Armstrong-Clark - I've been watching the results for a year and love what I am seeing.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We love it!!!

Beth

[dollarspa 14]

Dan, I've been using penofin since 1986 on all the the decks I built (mostly redwood) some cedar and pressure treated ...with okay results.

it always looks okay ....are you saying the armstrong product is that significantly better (best) of all the the deck stains ?

I have yet to find a good solution for pressure treated (the ugliest wood ever made) ....

willing to change not worried about cost of materials ....Do you have a reccomendation?

Edited May 10, 2009 by dollarspa

[plainpainter 217]

Mr. Potter - this is the first time I realized that you built decks. I have no experience with penofin - but I hear only harsh criticism. The products I used were far better than penofin - but this chase over a 'pretty' stain has been elusive. Everyone at one time or another used a 'pretty' stain that had all the characteristics they wanted. But somehow the recipes get mucked up, the EPA comes storming in. And that truly pretty deck stain that still looks pretty after a year seems harder and harder to find.

The last 3 years one manufacturer got alot of all our business around here - all based upon how the stain performed back in '04 - and it took 4 years to fully convince most everyone that the stain doesn't live up to it's former glory.

[RPetry 564]

... I have yet to find a good solution for pressure treated (the ugliest wood ever made) .... ...

David,

Pressure treated southern yellow pine can look quite acceptable.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick - that's a very pretty stain right there - I suppose it's readyseal - but it won't look like that in a year's time, right?

[RPetry 564]

Rick - that's a very pretty stain right there - I suppose it's readyseal - but it won't look like that in a year's time, right?

Daniel,

Yes, the stain is Ready Seal medium red on PT. Of course it will not look that good in a year's time of weathering and sun, no semi-trans oil stain will. You know that.

Attached is a picture of 2 RS med. red decks we did delayed maintenance on this spring. The picture was taken after cleaning. The deck on the left of the picture was last stained 4 years ago, and cleaned with a bleach mix. The "lighter" deck on the right was last stained 3 years ago and cleaned or in effect "stripped" of remaining pigment with a sodium percarb cleaner and brightened with citric acid.

After 4 yrs. still a lot of RS pigment left on the verticals of the deck on the left, some, but not much left on the horizontals. Why? The solution is in the picture. Tree shade. Plus, when we restore exterior wood with RS, we prep the wood correctly and apply a lot of stain.

These decks are builder quality PT SYP that were not maintained for first 14 yrs., and the wood is now 21 yrs. old. I know, as I've lived here for 21 years.

[plainpainter 217]

Interesting - why the difference in prep of the one step bleach process vs. the two step percarb stripping and citric application? Is there a difference in price - customer choice? Or you felt one deck didn't need a full strip? Or were you just experimenting?

I think the key to some of you readyseal guys is that you really load up the wood with stain - I've heard you guys will come back after a couple of days for another coat - is that true?

[dollarspa 14]

since 1980 of all decks I have built I've never found a stain or paint that has held up more than 1 year in texas sun (dallas)

I have tried everything imaginable including but not limited to urathane

penofin thompsons sw linseed oil yikes (ask me about the fire) the list goes on and on.The only requirement I had was whatever's the best I dont care what it costs Because I'm only doing it one time

I have stained and seal the boards before building the decks I have run all the boards thru a planner you get the Idea

I enjoy redwood for 2 reason's one it looks good when I build it and I only pay 1.45 a foot 2x6 and it accepts stain sealer no problem

with pressure treated it cost (number 1 grade) 90 cents a board foot and looks like crap (the quality of the wood twist warps etc.

and in theroy your not suppose to stain or seal for weeks etc ..well by than your got cracking and checking .

I have built quite a few synthetic/composite $2.20 board footdecks trex (even the early years of trex in the 80's enjoyed the decomposing issue)

now i build plastic eon and other plastic but still rather build out of redwood/cedar

I have taken decks up and run threw the planner to get rid of abuse cracking and checking and than sealing and staining

(over kill I know)

I know this isnt a deck building forum I'm just giving a litlle background on what I do because I'm really interested in the deck sealing and refinishing

From reading the forums here and elsewhere I am learning their were better grades of stain sealers etc that I was never exposed to

also the most memorable thing I learned was Micheal K video of soft washing and cleaning with his hand on the wood while spraying

(burned in my memory)

So I guess i'll try armstrong clarke basd on everyones else's excitement will see

Edited May 11, 2009 by dollarspa

[James 624]

The basics with wood care is to get a reputation and an understanding of how to care for wood. You can use a terrible sealer and be a good businessman and go to a house every 2 years and collect a check and by the 4th time the customer will change. It took the home owner 8 years to figure out there was crap on there deck.

There's a difference in Sealing a deck and Preserving wood for longevity.

[RPetry 564]

Interesting - why the difference in prep of the one step bleach process vs. the two step percarb stripping and citric application?

Daniel,

The "left" deck is in shade a good part of the day, and the wood had not been cleaned, let alone stained for 4 full years. There was a decent amount of built up mold and mildew, thus the sodium hypochlorite wash. But there was also a good amount of oil and some pigment left in the wood, it only took one staining. See the 1st picture which is a closeup of the floor prior to prep.

The 3 yr. old "right" deck had little mold/mildew, due to full sun exposure, but due to an overhang by the back wall, the deck floor had a decent amount of pigment in that area, but little in the remaining wood. The verticals still had a lot of pigment. To get a more even finish, it was best to use sodium percarb and citric. See 2nd pic.

Is there a difference in price - customer choice? Or you felt one deck didn't need a full strip? ...

The price differential is small, 4 gals. of citric, one more gal. of stain, and a little labor. The "right" deck was not stripped, just washed with percarb, which better preserves the amount of oil already in the wood.

The only choice my customers get is the color of Ready Seal. They do not determine prep methods.

I think the key to some of you readyseal guys is that you really load up the wood with stain - I've heard you guys will come back after a couple of days for another coat - is that true?

Wood prep is very important. And yes, the amount of stain applied, especially the first time is very important for longevity. It depends on the wood. Some jobs we do a double application on the horizontals the same day, other woods we let soak in for the night and finish the next morning. Some woods will only take a single staining.

[big mike 14]

The only choice my customers get is the color of Ready Seal. They do not determine prep methods.

+1

Also, I have a strong customer base who are now converted to RS and a regular maintenance schedule. Why change in mid stream and explain that you were wrong for the last 5-6 yrs? I'll stick with what is working, and let everyone else look for the Holy Grail of stain.:)

Rick, that side-by-side shot is a nice photo to explain the effects of sun and stain longevity to customers.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We love Armstrong Clark!

:dancing:

Beth :cup:

:sunshine:We also love SUNSHINE and are glad for a break in the weather! :sunshine:

[plainpainter 217]

There's a difference in Sealing a deck and Preserving wood for longevity.

I assume by this you mean sealing is a top layer curing stain vs. something penetrates into the depths of the wood. The problem I have with this Jim - is that I have been 'preserving' one of my own decks with timberoil the past two seasons {2 coats separated by a month in the fall of '07 - then a single coat early fall of '08} And I don't like the look of this 'preserved' deck - it's faded, it's dry looking - and doesn't even go a full year between coats looking great.

I will continue with this procedure and see if I am missing anything.

But I just don't see how your customers accept this kind of work as passable? I could understand maintaining a curing finish at year 2 with a parafinnic/curing hybrid stain - and then only a parafinnic stain at year 4. I just don't understand the 'readyseal' business model. And on woods like ipe - which the finish gets 'bounced' off completely after a year anyways - what 'preserving' were you actually accomplishing? At least you could say for pressure treated over the years even if the surface gets all mucked up - more and more oils are inside - but ipe none of the oils you applied remain over time.

[plainpainter 217]

Here is a picture of my timberoil deck - been stained twice in '07 after being fully restored and not just sanded, but floors ground flat with a floor edger, and then washed it a few times in '08 - as I kept never getting around to it - but after being washed on 4 seperate occasions with a very weak bleach and dishwater soap - it got stained again in oct '08.

Each time this stain looks great after putting down - and here is a picture of it after being stained 3 times with a parafinnic and then having gone through a new england winter - the finish is now 7 months old.

This is a an every year affair - no way this could ever look good enough to go two years. This type of oil stain is just not sellable to clients.

[RPetry 564]

We love Armstrong Clark!

:dancing:

Beth :cup:

We also love S:sunshine:UNSHINE and are glad for a break in the weather! :sunshine:

Beth,

Jeeze, don't tell Rod, hope he doesn't read this thread. He'll be out cruising for a new wood minx!

Can't be the can, that old metal retro design doesn't hold a candle to your main squeeze. Could it be Armstong? Never met him, does he have more hair than Jake? Hah!, sorry Jake, could not resist a cheap shot! Like I can talk, can't hear a lick and my top front teeth are fake!

Anyway, if you could elaborate on your new found love, inquiring minds would be interested....

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Are you suggesting I kiss and tell? HA!

Seriously, I like lots of things about the product. Maybe at some point I'll post them...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ease of application, spreads well, and doesn't stay tacky or sticky. If it gets lightly rained on right after being applied, it can take it. Can't say that about hours and hours and hour of solid downpour if you get caught sealing though...

Like the way the deck beads up. That might sound stupid, but another product we used to use didn't do it and consumers used to ask about it.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Are you suggesting I kiss and tell? HA!

Seriously, I like lots of things about the product. Maybe at some point I'll post them...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ease of application, spreads well, and doesn't stay tacky or sticky. If it gets lightly rained on right after being applied, it can take it. Can't say that about hours and hours and hour of solid downpour if you get caught sealing though...

Like the way the deck beads up. That might sound stupid, but another product we used to use didn't do it and consumers used to ask about it.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

Are you suggesting I kiss and tell? HA!

Hey, I'll take a kiss, and you can tell me any little thing you want. Just don't tell Rod, he'd wrap me up in linseed soaked tarps and light a match!

Seriously, I like lots of things about the product. Maybe at some point I'll post them...:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ease of application, spreads well, and doesn't stay tacky or sticky. If it gets lightly rained on right after being applied, it can take it. Can't say that about hours and hours and hour of solid downpour if you get caught sealing though...

We have only done two jobs with A-C. Compared with RS, it is not as easy or quick on application. A-C does spot and lap. Coverage is much better than RS on softwoods. For a partial linseed base, it does cure out quickly and with a shower, probably no problem. With porous woods, a downpour within two hours may not effect the finish at all.

Like the way the deck beads up. That might sound stupid, but another product we used to use didn't do it and consumers used to ask about it.

Argg.., you must have a lot of TV Thompson users! In 8 years, have never had a customer ask about beading as opposed to observed sheeting. Yeah, you are right, it is stupid. I must have smart customers!

Maintenance with A-C is going to be key. We will know a lot more in a year or two.

Post or private mail any other observations. It is the first exterior stain that contains linseed oil that shows promise for certain jobs.

[James 624]

I thought Beth and Rod where Thompsons Water Seal Certified ! Rod doesn't buy Beth Perl beads. He seals decks and gives her WATER BEADS!!! Can't wait for rain ......

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Come on guys - TWP does the SAME THING....and doesn't Ready Seal?

Beth

[RPetry 564]

... Can't wait for rain ......

Diamond Jim,

That is cruel. It is a convoluted, afflicted mind that would post such a thing. Got to stain today for the first time in about 9 days. Things are looking up, only a 40% chance of thunderstorms and associated rain overnight.

Some Springs, takes the patience of Job to stick with the exterior wood business.

[RPetry 564]

Come on guys - TWP does the SAME THING....and doesn't Ready Seal?

Beth

Beth,

Not sure what you are asking. Do not know about TWP, could never get the paraffinic here in my area of NJ.

Ready Seal does not "bead" like those little droplets on that crappy OMax acrylic semi can, water kind of "sheets" off the wood.

[hoosierwindowtek 14]

Here is a picture of my timberoil deck - been stained twice in '07 after being fully restored and not just sanded, but floors ground flat with a floor edger, and then washed it a few times in '08 - as I kept never getting around to it - but after being washed on 4 seperate occasions with a very weak bleach and dishwater soap - it got stained again in oct '08.

Each time this stain looks great after putting down - and here is a picture of it after being stained 3 times with a parafinnic and then having gone through a new england winter - the finish is now 7 months old.

This is a an every year affair - no way this could ever look good enough to go two years. This type of oil stain is just not sellable to clients.

I'm wondering if the problem isn't the 4 washes with bleach. I know you said very weak, but 4 washes have to have an effect and the picture has a pale look to it. Just a thought from a relative newbie.

[plainpainter 217]

I'm wondering if the problem isn't the 4 washes with bleach. I know you said very weak, but 4 washes have to have an effect and the picture has a pale look to it. Just a thought from a relative newbie.

It was 2 cups of household bleach per gallon of water and some dishsoap. I washed the deck several times - because each time I was going to stain it - something came up.

I don't know where you are going with this thought? Those washes I was talking about was performed in '08 prior to it being sealed a 3rd time last fall. The picture you are looking at was taken in just the last day - it was stained 7 months prior.

the 'pale' look you describe is exactly my complaints - these parafinnic stain just don't hold up well. It is that pale looking in real life.

[RPetry 564]

Daniel,

Richard may have a point. A very diluted bleach with soap should not be a problem, did you add TSP or something else?

Otherwise, something is wrong, either wood prep, not using enough oil, or the stain itself. Did you check moisture before applying? ESI sent 10 gals. of Timberoil to us gratis last year and we gave it to a customer that we charged labor to prep and stain a 3 month old PT deck. Got a call back within a month, put down more Timberoil as it did not hold color very well. But it was new PT, low to the ground. Not sure if it was a stain problem, will check it this season.

+1

Also, I have a strong customer base who are now converted to RS and a regular maintenance schedule. Why change in mid stream and explain that you were wrong for the last 5-6 yrs? I'll stick with what is working, and let everyone else look for the Holy Grail of stain.:)

Rick, that side-by-side shot is a nice photo to explain the effects of sun and stain longevity to customers.

Mike,

That is familiar, when I first started used Wolman's F&P. Wanted to use RS but could not afford friggin' 80 gal. min. shipments by truck. ACR Products came along and have happily been using RS since. Stripped every previous Wolman's job at my own expense, just to convert to RS. Well worth it over the years and it will take a miracle stain or detrimental product reformulation, to make any change.

Living in a townhouse community, I have a few customers within a hundred yards. Got a request for a "redo" yesterday, located next to the "shaded" deck example earlier in the thread. Without the tree, this deck gets full sunlight throughout the day. Attached is a picture taken today.

This wood was last stained with RS med. red come July, five years ago. As far as I know, it has never even been washed to remove dirt and mold/mildew. Sure, service is way overdue, but even so, there is still some pigment on the surface of the deck and also vertical wood. And I'll bet there is still some oil in the wood.

Funny, I've got 4 beat up, 21 yr. old pressure treated decks in a row, with varying service dates. Same wood, same age, and poorly maintained for the first 14 yrs. Left to right, 5 yrs., 4 yrs., 3 yrs, and one next door, 2 yrs. All stained with Ready Seal medium red by us. A perfect longevity test!