Stripping Sikken's Cetol log and siding stain

[RPetry 564]

Hmmm, ya' gotta' love painters (sorry Daniel!). Ipe' deck, topside storage, and 3 sets of treads stained with Sikken's Cetol log and siding stain! 3 months ago. Clear cedar balustrade and horizontal fascia band also stained with the same stuff. Thankfully, the T&G vertical fascia as well as the clear cedar room framing was left unstained after the homeowner said "STOP!".

Very nice home and design, the outdoor wood is 6 months old. Better half of the household is an interior designer from Britain, just learning about wood. She is appalled at the 3 month mark.

A few pics. #1 - overall shot of the job.

#2 - outside storage cabinets, with Sikken's stained ipe' tops, and mostly untouched cedar. Right side shows where the homeowner applied a coat of the Sikken's recently (too orange in her opinion), a smaller area of some Cabot's, and my 3 very small RS three brown samples.

#3 - Closeup of the failed Sikken's on the ipe' deck floor.

#4 - On the right, a test of a "boosted" sodium hydroxide stripper test on the horiz. cedar fascia board with the Sikken's. Appears to have stripped out OK.

Question. The cedar with the Sikken's Cetol seems to have stripped out fine with my "boosted" test stripper. The ipe' with the same stain appears to be more problematic.

It is hard to tell as the ipe' was still very wet when I left after estimate measurements, and would of taken some Labor Day time to let dry. A bit hard to imagine that the ipe' would not strip out even better than the cedar, but I am somewhat unsure. Thankfully, we do not see Sikken's stain in this area.

Any clues or practical experience stripping a "new" application of Sikken's Cetol off of hardwoods?

Thanks.

[plainpainter 217]

Hey Rick - just think of Painters as Job Security. I don't know much about the Sikkens product line - other than they are suppose to have a great reputation. Many folks swear by their products. Do you think that product on ipe fared any worse than many of the well known brands would have?

Personally you know my opinion of relatively new wood. I'd rather homeowners hire my competition and put something like sikkens siding stain on it. You said it's 6 months old and the painter applied at month 3, correct? I actually think that's a perfect setup for a restoration type job next spring. I wouldn't want to touch 3 month old wood. I don't think anything truly works well with wood that new.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Call Rod tomorrow. We have been to that hell and survived it.

Beth

[topcoat 14]

Rick

Let it sit for another 6 months and mother nature will do half the job for you. We have been stripping sikkens lately. It is a particular pleasure that every woodie should have the experience of. Ours is pretty weathered but still a chore. I'd be happy to share with you what worked for us. We also have a wrap around ipe deck on our project that was in similar condition to what yours appears to be. The good thing about ipe is that it rejects most everything, so it doesnt look like too tough of a strip. Your verticals will be hit or miss.

Edited September 7, 2009 by topcoat

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

Call Rod tomorrow. We have been to that hell and survived it.

Beth

Beth,

Will do, although I promised an email estimate tonight.

Rick

Let it sit for another 6 months and mother nature will do half the job for you. We have been stripping sikkens lately. It is a particular pleasure that every woodie should have the experience of. Ours is pretty weathered but still a chore. I'd be happy to share with you what worked for us. We also have a wrap around ipe deck on our project that was in similar condition to what yours appears to be. The good thing about ipe is that it rejects most everything, so it doesnt look like too tough of a strip. Your verticals will be hit or miss.

Scott,

Not possible. Some "Home and Garden" magazine is scheduled for a shoot of this "outdoor living space" late this month.

What surprises me is that the vertical cedar strips out fine with a strong mix but the horizontal ipe' appears to be tougher. One would expect the opposite.

But then again, with ipe', its tough to determine the effectiveness of a test stripping until the wood is dry.

I think I'll cover bases and do what I mentioned to the customer. Two separate quotes, one with the "boosted" NaOH mix, and one with Stripper Cream.

[topcoat 14]

Ah yes, the old photo shoot schedule, that always throws a wrench in the best laid plans. The ipe can definitely be stripped, just be prepared to do some sanding. Alot of sanding after. That was our experience after ramping up the naoh on it. You can make it look great. Then, sell them an annual maintenance program on the deck. It will need it. As you know, the stuff has the structural density of steel. Doesnt want to cooperate much with penetrators.

[RPetry 564]

Scott,

I know I can get the Cetol off with the right stripper, it will just be more costly if I need to use stripper cream. We always lightly sand ipe' prior to an initial staining, not for stain removal but to remove the usual small fuzzies. An oil finish looks blotchy if you do not sand ipe' the first time, or after a hard percarb cleaning or NaOH stripping.

If I get the job, which I should, the customer is already aware that we will be back next spring for a light cleaning and a light maintenance staining. The wood should not be pronounced "eee pay", but "you pay"!

Edited September 8, 2009 by RPetry
spelling error

[topcoat 14]

and pay, and pay, and pay...its so counterintuitive...the stuff is supposed to be low or no maintenance, which I guess it is if you just let it turn silver, but my customers dont seem to want that so we wrestle with the stuff (and all its ridiculous cousins; garrapa, cambara, etc) every year.

[RPetry 564]

and pay, and pay, and pay...its so counterintuitive...the stuff is supposed to be low or no maintenance, which I guess it is if you just let it turn silver, but my customers dont seem to want that so we wrestle with the stuff (and all its ridiculous cousins; garrapa, cambara, etc) every year.

Scott,

Yeah, and us poor wood contractors have to do the work every year. Who's complaining!

[topcoat 14]

I dont have a problem with it. Once you educate the customer to the point where they can wrap their mind around whats going on, its fine. It takes a couple years to get past the: "You mean to tell me there is no product that will hold up on this ipe that we paid $6/ft for?" Once you clear that hurdle, its all good and the deck is sweet every year.

[JFife 14]

Rick,

Is it just that small amount of verticals that is stained? Didn't look like much else was stained. Also, IMO, this doesn't look like Log And Siding. Okay, re-read, was that L&S on the floor?

To me, I'd just sand all of this. Pull out a grinder and go to town. More labor, but you could grind, sand, and stain in one day.

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

Is it just that small amount of verticals that is stained? Didn't look like much else was stained. Also, IMO, this doesn't look like Log And Siding. Okay, re-read, was that L&S on the floor?

To me, I'd just sand all of this. Pull out a grinder and go to town. More labor, but you could grind, sand, and stain in one day.

Jon,

Yes for the cedar, only that small rail & fascia, as well as 3 separate stair risers are currently stained. It strips off well with a boosted NaOH mix. See the right side of the last pic, on the fascia band board.

According to the customer, it is also Cetol L & S on the ipe'. The "painting company" left a small sample container so I guess thats what it is. I cannot remember the last time I ran into Sikken's, it is just not used much on decks in this area.

Man, I don't know about sanding that stain off the ipe'. I'm lazy, it would seem a bit less hard labor to chemically strip it. We do a lot of sanding/buffing of ipe', but its a light process, not a grind. Good point though, if I was 20 years younger!

[acegot 14]

I've found with acrylics & heavy alkyds the harder the wood the harder it is to strip. (If it was prepped correctly)

[plainpainter 217]

Rick If I can get sherwin williams oil based toner off - you can get that stuff off. Just 'boost' your stripper. What do you use to boost with? And then apply one, two, three coats via pump up or shurflo with loads of dwell. Anything that remains will be a easy sand.

[RSuds 24]

We have done some of these jobs and they do suck. We did this one and it took a long time but the best was to use the striper strong and let it sit on the deck for hours. We would keep it a little wet but it takes a long time and then sand.

[RPetry 564]

Brian,

Nice deck, and a really craftsmanship stripping, sanding, and staining. Real nice work.

Daniel,

I've got NaOH additives in stock. Also, have some specialty strippers that laugh at acrylics. Only problem, those strippers are not only very expensive, they take a ton of labor to apply.

Thus, two bids.

[James 625]

Rick, that is one difficult strip! The deck was done to early and too much product applied and anything you put on will be gone by Thanksgiving.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I dont have a problem with it. Once you educate the customer to the point where they can wrap their mind around whats going on, its fine. It takes a couple years to get past the: "You mean to tell me there is no product that will hold up on this ipe that we paid $6/ft for?" Once you clear that hurdle, its all good and the deck is sweet every year.

With Ipe besides getting them to wrap their minds around the price issues it is extremely difficult to get them to accept what is actually going on with the wood or what needs to happen in way of prep for a chance of longer cycle between restaining. Last one awhile back, just consider it a consult, the guy had already done much of the testing for me. Main thing I think he never grasped was that once you take off all that sorta dingy/silver ugly dead/dry wood stuff, which I consider somewhat good and beneficial as a mechanical binder(for ipe anyways), you are right back to square one with oozing extracitives hampering yer coating or rather penetration. Did I mention this one before?,... feels like deja vu..sorry.. ;(

(guy had Fenner's stuff laying around...wonder if he's heard from this one)

[topcoat 14]

With Ipe besides getting them to wrap their minds around the price issues it is extremely difficult to get them to accept what is actually going on with the wood or what needs to happen in way of prep for a chance of longer cycle between restaining. Last one awhile back, just consider it a consult, the guy had already done much of the testing for me. Main thing I think he never grasped was that once you take off all that sorta dingy/silver ugly dead/dry wood stuff, which I consider somewhat good and beneficial as a mechanical binder(for ipe anyways), you are right back to square one with oozing extracitives hampering yer coating or rather penetration. Did I mention this one before?,... feels like deja vu..sorry.. ;(

(guy had Fenner's stuff laying around...wonder if he's heard from this one)

I agree, there is a balance in there somewhere. I was messing with an ipe deck today with citralic. There is a point where you can tell with the wet citralic what it would look like with oil, even though it dries back to the silvery gray. Seems that you have to develop a whole different "eye" during the chems process with ipe than with any other species.

I've been down that road too many times where you go all the way, then sand, and end up at square one in the cycle. You may be onto something with that layer, when brightened gently, and low pressure rinsed thoroughly (no furring) might lend itself quite well to better absorption. Good call.

[James 625]

Been doing it for 10 years with RS not removing the grey on Ipe. It's easier with a non- drying oil that only leaves pigment behind. There are many issues to contend with over the life of a maintenance plan on IPE ?

[topcoat 14]

Been doing it for 10 years with RS not removing the grey on Ipe. It's easier with a non- drying oil that only leaves pigment behind. There are many issues to contend with over the life of a maintenance plan on IPE ?

Yes there sure are. I have been wrestling with one the past couple of days...improvising. Its an annual event.

Jim, whats your preferred oil on this substrate?

[James 625]

I will say it is not in the customers best interest to do Ipe or other very hard hardwood in the fall. Spring is best so they can watch it fail slowly and better ! After winter and the snow cover " what happened to my deck" ?

Large decks I use Ready Seal and on smaller ones I try out many different approaches with added Drying oils . Also I have been changing people to just cleaning and a buff on IPE. My person favorite..............

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Scott, And have you noticed it is a hard call unless you get right down there with the wood real close and personal? I tried explaining it to the customer like I did above with an emphasis on the idea that washing/pressuring ones way into the deeper/stained look is not really the way to go. I may have compared the wetting that would happen when the new oil goes on to the look that happens when one gets concrete wet. Telling someone basically that a prep that looks cleaner,better,deeper, or more consistent will hamper the length of time their new stain will last is bound to get an odd reaction so I am sure that is why I did not get a call back on doing that job.

(disclaimer: none of this talk applies to other woods that I know of :)

[topcoat 14]

I will say it is not in the customers best interest to do Ipe or other very hard hardwood in the fall. Spring is best so they can watch it fail slowly and better ! After winter and the snow cover " what happened to my deck" ?

Large decks I use Ready Seal and on smaller ones I try out many different approaches with added Drying oils . Also I have been changing people to just cleaning and a buff on IPE. My person favorite..............

That certainly would be the perception of better bang for the buck. This particular customer is a second home owner. They leave in mid Oct. You are right. My work will look great for them for about a month. Next April, we will do the dance again.

[RPetry 564]

In general, it has been my experience that customers who can afford an ipe' deck just want it to look great ASAP. You can talk 'till you're blue in the face, "just wait a year, it will hold stain longer", or "Mrs. Smith, it will be winter soon. Why don't we service it in the spring?" Extra cost of cleaning and re-oiling in 6 months does not matter, they have the money and just want the wood to look its best.

[RPetry 564]

Finally got started on this job this morning. Get there, and see my test strip from the estimate. See 1st picture, looks good.

Stripped and applied oxalic acid. This Sikken's Cetol is not bad, came out of clear cedar and the ipe' without trouble.

Mix per gallon of water was 8 oz. ACR 760 NaOH stripper, 4 oz. of ACR 633-ADD stripper booster additive, and 2 oz. of Tergitol NP-9 surfactant. Worked well.

Brightened with oxalic acid at 8 oz./gal. and 1 oz./gal. of Tergitol NP-9. Next week is a light sand and then staining.