Ipe' stain longevity

[RPetry 564]

The more ipe' we do, the more I am convinced that letting the wood naturally age and weather is the best course, prior to applying a finish that will last for any appreciable time.

Case in point. On the way home yesterday, stopped by to look at a small ipe' job we stained 9 months ago. As can be seen in the last two pictures, this ipe' was moldy, dirty, and very weathered to the point of surface degradation. The owner stated that the wood had not been cleaned or stained in at least 5 years.

At the 9 month mark, this ipe' looks terrific. The stain pigment has held up remarkably well. The wood is near perfect. The stain used was Ready Seal medium red, two light applications on the floor and a single application on all vertical wood.

Edited June 5, 2010 by RPetry

[Jake Clark 17]

Hello All,

Our new mahogany color was shipped to a number of places and for sure the high desert of Arizonia was one of our better test spots. They have severe UV and monsoonal rain storms. In winter AZ has serious snow in the high country. Those others that are running test in Maryland, Ga., Fa. and Tx, please let me know your findings. From what I can tell, the Az tests and our tests at the plant have nailed the previous Cabot ATO formula and have given the coating unheard of life on hard woods, especially IPE. Imagine, no need to wait 1 year to coat the deck.

Call me if you have questions,

Jake Clark, Pres.

1 209 541 6579

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ipe is an amazing hardwood. Not disputing that. But there is no escaping the fact that it will gray with direct exposure. This works to the advantage of folks like you and I who want the wood to have protection for as long as possible between trips. Prior to 2005, there were a number of products with higher longevity than we see today. But that's beside the point.

• sunlight causes UV graying - on all species installed outdoors when the wood is unprotected
  

The following will affect the life of ANY product:

• rain
  
• snow
  
• wind
  
• abrasion from plants in proximity
  
• people/animal traffic
  
• extreme heat
  
• extreme cold
  
• amount of sun UV exposure
  
• spilled items like: BBQ grease, candle wax, food & beverages
  
• household cleaners when home owners try to resolve the above messes
  
• planter rings from pots and tree/shrub/flower debris
  

But I am off track again....

UV exposure begins with construction.

Beth :cup:

[James 625]

Because Ipe has so much natural oil it doesn't not allow moisture to enter , dries faster on its own and repels foreign matter. A non-drying oil and drying oil has two problems from the start . The wood doesn't want it there because it can naturally deflect moisture and moisture produced by nature (rain, snow, condensation,morning dew). So you have oils fighting each other . When you have a wood fighting you from below the battle is lost from the start. Basically it's how long can I make the product last and give this wood some color ?

When using a straight non-drying oil like RS the oil is the carrier for the pigment. The pigment prevents the wood from turning grey. The oil gets bounced out of the wood in direct correlation to how much precipitation you've have in the area ( 4 to 6 months). So the more pigment you have in the oil the longer the color retention. Once the oil is gone some pigment is lost after each precipitation . The the sun has been doing its work all the time too and will continue ..... Light colors don't work and oiling in the first 6 months is a waste of time and customers money.

Drying oils- So how much is really in the products we use on Ipe to get them too work? How many coats do you have to do to form a solid barrier or add other ingredients to make something stick. Or do you put some type of drying finish on and maintain by sanding and re-appling ? The problem with this method is once you miss maintenance it's over and at some point it all has to be removed. The other issue is more mildew is introduced and attracted. These products keep the wood wetter longer and attract mildew. Once drying oils start to break down they hold moisture longer and attract more dirt and mildew. Wood Tux did this fast !!

Combo Non- Drying oil, Drying oil- With this combo you have to ask yourself is there enough room in the wood for the non-drying to be absorbed and the drying oil to lock it in place. Which one carries and holds the pigment for color retention. So the more you can get into the wood the longer the color will be held. So at what point will the wood absorb the most quantity of product to give the longest life ? Adding more pigment will add to color retention and make the wood look better longer. All of this is in relation to the age of the wood and how much natural oil its lost.

Solid content is a very important factor to understand . If you have wood that will not accept product and has to get spread over a larger area to work. Everything gets spread thin to make the product work. So the ratio of the non-drying oil to the drying oil is a factor to consider and when best to apply the product.

As we know many Drying oil products have that re- application of product at intervals for new wood because of how much that can be applied at first.

The Test - One piece of board 3 inches thick on a roof that no one walks on in AZ ? Most boards are 6" wide, cup , hold water and are flat on the ground. The difference between verticals and horizontals with Ipe is monumental in regards to product and color retention .

Do a test that simulates reality and don't produce the facts until you really know. Get boards and apply product at intervals of aging. How much more product was applied at each point to get the best results ? Getting a news flash every once in a while and a picture of a roof in AZ is pretty comical or cosmical . Too me anyway !

I use RS and AC on Upe and do a significant amount of testing, trials with hardwoods. I am responsible for many methods and application processes used on hardwoods today.

Edited August 21, 2010 by James

[RPetry 564]

Diamond Jim makes some very astute points. If I read his post correctly, ipe' stain longevity is due to numerous factors, much of which has to do with the history and age of the ipe'. I could not agree more.

Testing various stains on ipe' is another ball of wax. In my own way, I have tried to do this over the years on my own ipe' deck with, to put it mildly, inconclusive results. A while ago, posted in another thread, I applied 6 different, "premier" wood stains to my ipe'. After a year, the results were conclusive.

Defy Stain for Hardwoods was the clear winner for pigment color retention. By far.

This spring we stripped off the old finish and applied the Defy. Guess what. After 4 months the Defy looks blotchy, has lost much if not most of its pigment, and overall looks like a butcher job from a handyman. In short, it looks terrible. To the point where my wife is complaining.

Yes, our ipe' gets a ton of sun. Yeah, we're in the NorthEast that gets snow, usually a lot of rain, a whole lot of sun, and warm/cool variations. It's a tough environment for any stain.

With my better half permission, we'll strip and put down some A-C mahogany on the ipe' next spring on both the horizontal and vertical ipe'. The full deck. If she will let me. Keeps on insisting that RS medium red looked the best and lasted the longest. Gotta' love the woman, I know that Peirce does!

As far as testing, it is a tough process. Not only does the climate and location have a large part in initial results, but wood age and preparation are also critical to comparisons.

Someone emailed me an interesting fact. Solar panels are typically angled at a +/- 40 degree angle at southern exposure to collect the maximum amount of sunlight. AFAIK, the Forest Products Laboratory as well as the major paint and stain manufacturers also use this method to test their products.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Someone emailed me an interesting fact. Solar panels are typically angled at a +/- 40 degree angle at southern exposure to collect the maximum amount of sunlight. AFAIK, the Forest Products Laboratory as well as the major paint and stain manufacturers also use this method to test their products.

Yes, but in real life the deck floors are not at a 40 degree angle are they? No. Unless you build the thing while drunk..... :lol:

In real life the floors are horizontal, the rails are vertical, and not diagonal. In real life you get direct sun on the floor, with the weather not having the ability to run off as easily....read that as if it rains, you may get puddles...etc. Rail systems always look better longer, and floors fail first. Floors take the wort UV beating. Floors by pools, even more so due to the light refracting off the water. Decks close to the ground have issues that decks on the second story do not. But none of them, are at a 40 degree angle. And in my opinion, a finish at a 40 degree angle will last longer, than a finish that is lying horizontal.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

The point and fact is that virtually all paint/stain manufacturers, as well as our "independent" gov't research lab, as far as I can remember, tests coating products to weathering and UV at an angle to the sun.

There is a reason for this. Common knowlege at this time points to UV light as the primary factor in coating failure on exterior surfaces, which obviously includes wood.

It is not rocket science. Different angles apply in the Northern Hemisphere dependent on latitude, but maximum sunlight exposure is angled and pointed South.

[acegot 14]

As Rick said the 40 degree catches the most uv for uv testing, but in the real world a flat board (as Beth stated)will have dirt build up that doesnt always get rinsed off (dew etc) & the wet/uv/dry, wet/uv/dry wet/dry/dirt/uv etc. exsposure is more damageing in the long run.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

My point is simple.....

It's about more than the UV, it's about the rain, dew, pollen, plant debris etc that sit on a horizontal board and add to the deterioration. It's a more real life test because in real life the boards are not at a 40 degree angle. I'm sure it is all very scientific, but I don't think it actually best represents wear. That's my opinion.

I'll ask you all this...how many of you (be honest) have ever looked at a can of any coating for exterior use and thought it silly that the claim for the life of the coating was as long as it was? How many of you knew at the time you took the can off of the shelf that it would not hold up that long? Are you raising your hands? And was the reason because you knew the lab test were not true to life? I rest my point.

Have a great day. :cup: :groovy3:

Beth

[James 625]

They but them at an angle for finishes going on vertical siding.The 40 degree will test the worst case scenario of the sun exposure.. That is a good test for siding.

I have written a couple of long responses about Ipe . They wood probably **** people off . I have done so much testing and with ipe decks I care for . I try different combos of everything, mix my own levels of ingredients for the best results . The most interesting factor is the lack of knowledge by the sealing makers concerning the wood. Everyone of them are clueless about the wood but there is a market ! They all hate the wood and it causes constant head aches for them.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jim said it!!! He said it!!!! They are testing at an angle for VERTICAL application! Siding! Rails! Vertical!

Jimbo said:

They but them at an angle for finishes going on vertical siding.The 40 degree will test the worst case scenario of the sun exposure.. That is a good test for siding.

And the amount of life quoted on a typical can is ALWAYS listed at the vertical life, not the horizontal life. Ever notice that? It's ok to say you noticed that too.... :lol:

My point is, a horizontal surface can't be represented diagonally. Period. If you test two or three boards, one horizontally, and one vertically and maybe another diagonally, you will get different results.

Beth

[Jake Clark 17]

Beth, Jim, Rick and all.

Mark Smith has posted findings for established test protocal. Protocal that has been in placed for decades. Dimond Jim's test protocal has not been published and therefore is not the industry standard. Just one of a series of tests was Mark's, however we at A/C have run real life tests through extremely able wood restoration professionals on both soft woods and hard woods. The results have been posted on soft woods. The free material sent to some of you for trial and it's review on performance, is still waiting for review. I look forward to your findings. Quite frankly, run what ever tests you want but run your tests! If we missed the boat, let me know. Diamond Jim, would you like to run your own tests? I will be pleased to send some your way.

Mark Smith and Weather Shield, who established 27 locations and A/C with 5 generations in the paint and stain industry should be considered folks who follow the rules, test appropriately to industry standards and want to share.

You decide, ask for samples and test away.

Jake

[Jake Clark 17]

Beth,

A/C has on our cans life expectancy for vertical and horizonical.

Jake

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jake,

Never meant to take anything away from A/c. We use and love your product. I guess I just found it very unusual that the non sealed area of the wood (first thing I mentioned actually) did not gray after a period of time had elapsed that would normally allow for that visible aging on bare wood.

We always tell our homeowners that the installation of any product will vary on their property, depending on a variety of factors. They seem to appreciate that.

Have a great day all. I enjoy a lively debate. :groovy3: :cup:

Beth

[James 625]

Jake , I gave you a lot of information in that post. Maybe too much ? Your welcome . The Industry standard for Ipe is for customers to join a 12 step program or go to a Wood therapist to learn how to deal with there dis-appointment over there finish not lasting. Or call the Wood Whisper ( Diamond Jim)......LOL !!1

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I don't know how the boat got missed here.

Beth and I are not test by questioning the stain on the test board. We are interested in the fact the unstained portion of the board has not turned gray over the 9 month period.

Anyone in this business knows that Ipe among all other woods will begin to gray in 6 weeks.

The fact that it hasn't is what is amazing to us.

Perhaps a bit obscure of an observation but for those of us who have customers who don't like the thought of having to stain the product year after year, this little detail is important.

Keeping a piece of wood from weathering gray without a coating is thought impossible but the photos have been posted and we are wondering how it is possible. Our customers would love to know.

Perhaps this NP-9 solution has something to do with it?

What is it?

Rod!~

Edited August 26, 2010 by Beth n Rod

[James 625]

B & R, actually Ipe' can keep it natural color for awhile. If it doesn't get hit by much rainfall it will not wash away. I've done decks over a year old that had color and you wash it away.

[Celeste 341]

Jake , I gave you a lot of information in that post. Maybe too much ? Your welcome . The Industry standard for Ipe is for customers to join a 12 step program or go to a Wood therapist to learn how to deal with there dis-appointment over there finish not lasting. Or call the Wood Whisper ( Diamond Jim)......LOL !!1

+10 :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

B & R, actually Ipe' can keep it natural color for awhile. If it doesn't get hit by much rainfall it will not wash away. I've done decks over a year old that had color and you wash it away.

And perhaps that is a part of it. Around here, it would not weather that way at all. But then, I'm in MD not AZ.

Beth

[weathershield 14]

Beth & Rod:

The testing method I refer to is universally accepted by all paint and stain manufacturers to test for the effects of ultraviolet radiation on their coatings. Arizona and Florida are the most severe areas in the country for ultraviolet radiation exposure. Higher elevations in Arizona being the most severe.

I agree with you that there are many other conditions that contribute to the degradation of any coating, however, in order to maintain parity in the testing procedure, all coatings must be subjected to identical conditions.

Remember, I am ONLY testing for the effects of ultraviolet radiation on a coating.

I was asked to test various stains on IPE in this environment. Frankly, the results were less than satisfactory.

The reason I posted the results of the Armstrong Clark Mahogany was that after six months the stain had retained most of its original color as opposed to all the other stains tested. It still retains much of its original color after nine months.

As far as the untreated portion of the test board is concerned, I have no concrete explanation as to the reason it still maintains much of its original state. The board was in pristine condition before I cleaned it and applied the A/C Mahogany stain.I can only guess that the natural extractives and oils are not as effected in this environment as they are in your environment.

[acegot 14]

New Ipe (& a couple of other hardwoods ) moderatly washed & brightened can fade but not grey as long as 6-12 months & unwashed a year and a half or more.

[James 625]

Pressure Treated because of the the Copper. Wood not turn grey ( ACQ).

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

....the mystery continues.

Oh well. Back on topic.

Glad to see the endurance of the product reach 9 months, our customers will be happy about that.

Rod!~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Mark,

Never any doubts about the AC longevity. Just perplexed by the bare wood.

More coffee is needed now however.... :cup:

Beth :groovy3:

[weathershield 14]

Update: A/C Mahogany on IPE at ten (10) months exposure.

[weathershield 14]

Edited November 27, 2010 by weathershield
Wrong Name