Surface Cleaner Arm, NOZZLE TILT

[Jim Gamble 20]

This sound good in theory but with the extra weight of the additional arms I would venture to put the two you suggested straight down to remain at 15 degs and increase the angle on the other two arms.

Smaller four arm SC's are probably a delight, but most that have 4 arm surface cleaners have big decks , the arc length between nozzles is probably close to a smaller surface cleaner with less arms, so they find that the forward speed is still slow.

I agree

[John T 744]

Dan Cosgrove sold his Turbo Twister http://amclean.com/Turbotwister.html he hardly every used last year for a song and a dance. He also had a Turbo attachment for the tips which I thought was interesting. Turbo tips seem to be a logical choice to clean the fastet with a surface machine that is belt driven. Dan sold that Turbo twister last year for $1500 and it looked new. Somebody got a steal on that and it wasn't me.

[810F250 14]

Good Info Nigel.

In cleaning Parking Garages for the past 21 years, we also have found that 0 degree nozzles work best. http://garagecleaning.net/Comparison.aspx

Jim Gamble

Crystal Cleaning Company LLC

San Francisco Bay Area

www.GarageCleaning.Net

510-612-0437

Jim that was just for you. The above zero deg use was testing done based upon your recommendation Jim.

I have to admit that you have made some great equipment recommendations, three of which I have applied and I am happy with the results, at least 8 more to go (you see, I was listening to you during those long conversations at 2.00 am).

I would have to re-attempt and log cleaning differences of the 230-245 F barrier. I pressure washed an oil stained concrete driveway (8 month penetration, car dripping daily) , washed at 8 gpm with sc and 15deg nozzles @ ~ 195 F, looked ok, then I upped the thermostat to 250F and cut the flow to 4.5 gpm and used a zero nozzle, the stain became cleaner ( much less of a shadow in concrete , sorry no pics), started rinsing and observed "blackish water" from my pw hose (not sure what it was, coil or hose) I would have rather more testing controls in place.

Edited January 15, 2011 by 810F250
spelling

[Scott Stone 604]

This sound good in theory but with the extra weight of the additional arms I would venture to put the two you suggested straight down to remain at 15 degs and increase the angle on the other two arms.

Smaller four arm SC's are probably a delight, but most that have 4 arm surface cleaners have big decks , the arc length between nozzles is probably close to a smaller surface cleaner with less arms, so they find that the forward speed is still slow.

I am talking a 38" surface cleaner pushing 12 GPM at 3500 PSI. Maybe have two larger nozzles straight down, and two smaller nozzles for propulsion. So that would be two 1.5's and two 4's or something similar. Just trying to think outside the box to get the best scientifically provable cleaning.

[Jerry 24]

Scott..

you one sharp guy !..

the men with larger-flow machines..

have the luxury of more nozzles in the deck..

Hell yeah with the two-down, two at 15 degrees !

I would think that for the guy with one 30" surface cleaner,

on a 9gpm system.. use 3 or 4ea. 15 degree spray nozzles and walk REAL fast.

Nigel,

wider spray angle = faster path without swirls.

More pressure,

..or more temp,

..or more heat = better clean

more flow = faster path

..to a point of increased difficulty to reclaim :)

if you are going to "sacrafice" swivels..

do it with more heat and/or more pressure.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Jerry

[Jim Gamble 20]

Dan Cosgrove sold his Turbo Twister http://amclean.com/Turbotwister.html he hardly every used last year for a song and a dance. He also had a Turbo attachment for the tips which I thought was interesting. Turbo tips seem to be a logical choice to clean the fastet with a surface machine that is belt driven. Dan sold that Turbo twister last year for $1500 and it looked new. Somebody got a steal on that and it wasn't me.

Yes.... It was a deal !!!!

I see Dan regularly. Another Great Guy. We always have a chuckle from the politics. Hey, I think he owes me Lunch..LOL.

Dan's unit was " Brand New". Dan just could not use this unit for his type of cleaning. We did considered buying it. The price was a great price, however, the unit was not designed for our application and would costs us up to $2,200 dollars to make it so. Dan's unit has the Standard 6.5 HP motor.

Dan's unit was shipped to John Ellis of whom he stated to me that he loves the 36" path and the speed of which he can run. John and Al Patterson are Great guys whom I respect and always tell it as they see it.

[Christopher 102]

Scott, I had been thinking about something similar, 2 nozzles to spin the spray bar and 2 for cleaning. I wonder what that would do?

I am looking for a large area of concrete to try out my large surface cleaner to see what it can do, hopefully it works as great as what I hear about the turbo twisters.

I would like to try out Jerry's 40" vacuum surface cleaner. That thing looks cool!

[810F250 14]

I am talking a 38" surface cleaner pushing 12 GPM at 3500 PSI. Maybe have two larger nozzles straight down, and two smaller nozzles for propulsion. So that would be two 1.5's and two 4's or something similar. Just trying to think outside the box to get the best scientifically provable cleaning.

Sounds like its worth a try Scott,

I think however when you get to the =>10 gpm range for large area surface cleaning , 2 sets of swivels under one deck would offer more area coverage and better efficiency than one huge deck and one set of arms.

How about this for innovation, I have seen a surface cleaner that uses some of the flow to create vacuum under the surface cleaner so it does not require a mechanical vacuum.

Scott..

you one sharp guy !..

the men with larger-flow machines..

have the luxury of more nozzles in the deck..

Hell yeah with the two-down, two at 15 degrees !

I would think that for the guy with one 30" surface cleaner,

on a 9gpm system.. use 3 or 4ea. 15 degree spray nozzles and walk REAL fast.

Nigel,

wider spray angle = faster path without swirls.

More pressure,

..or more temp,

..or more heat = better clean

more flow = faster path

..to a point of increased difficulty to reclaim :)

if you are going to "sacrafice" swivels..

do it with more heat and/or more pressure.

Jerry I agree with your statements above but sometimes wide angle nozzles does not give the cleaning impact needed to reach a satisfactory level of clean, even if I go slower, it just does not have the "punching power".

Scott, I had been thinking about something similar, 2 nozzles to spin the spray bar and 2 for cleaning. I wonder what that would do?

I am looking for a large area of concrete to try out my large surface cleaner to see what it can do, hopefully it works as great as what I hear about the turbo twisters.

I would like to try out Jerry's 40" vacuum surface cleaner. That thing looks cool!

Chris I remember you mentioning this on ***. Heard anything further from those guys on the water treatment?

Edited January 16, 2011 by 810F250

[Scott Stone 604]

First, I don't walk pushing that much water. ;) I have seen the cyclones, and from what I have seen the spray bars are belt driven, and they use a blade like a lawn mower blade to create the vacuum. I am currently using a squeegee to suck up the water with pretty good results.

In my opinion I think higher heat is good, but there is a point of diminishing returns where high heat is counter productive.

[Christopher 102]

Nigel, I have not heard anything from them, probably because of the holidays but I am still looking.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Mine are Adjustable, Landa built a Tool that sets the angle we never use it. We should but we don't, kinda a prefference setting for tech.

Nigel how are ya? called ya when on the east coast buddy your always busy.

[810F250 14]

First, I don't walk pushing that much water. ;) I have seen the cyclones, and from what I have seen the spray bars are belt driven, and they use a blade like a lawn mower blade to create the vacuum. I am currently using a squeegee to suck up the water with pretty good results.

In my opinion I think higher heat is good, but there is a point of diminishing returns where high heat is counter productive.

Its not Cyclone Scott, its a high end water jetting company that has developed this technology, its called the "Scater 5". I agree about diminishing returns

Nigel, I have not heard anything from them, probably because of the holidays but I am still looking.

Holidays is over! Give them a call again.

Mine are Adjustable, Landa built a Tool that sets the angle we never use it. We should but we don't, kinda a prefference setting for tech.

Nigel how are ya? called ya when on the east coast buddy your always busy.

Thats what I have been hearing, they have a tool to adjust, wonder if mosmatic adjustable "s style" comes with an angle setting tool?

[Christopher 102]

That company has some interesting technology but I would think that they also have a vacuum system to pull the water/contaminants into the vehicles as the push from the system from the surface cleaner will only push so far.

That technology is similar to some that some of us use currently, just not in that particular application.

[Jerry 24]

Has anyone tried 21" surface cleaner with 4-nozzle spraybar ??

I'm thinking #0002's for 8gpm @ 4000 psi ought to "bash peaks off those valleys" at quite a pace,

..with maneuverability.

I'm also thinking 5 degree nozzles would be even better.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Its not Cyclone Scott, its a high end water jetting company that has developed this technology, its called the "Scater 5". I agree about diminishing returns

Holidays is over! Give them a call again.

Thats what I have been hearing, they have a tool to adjust, wonder if mosmatic adjustable "s style" comes with an angle setting tool?

That tool is universal, if i can dig one up I'm not using just text the address, ill send it

[810F250 14]

Has anyone tried 21" surface cleaner with 4-nozzle spraybar ??

I'm thinking #0002's for 8gpm @ 4000 psi ought to "bash peaks off those valleys" at quite a pace,

..with maneuverability.

I'm also thinking 5 degree nozzles would be even better.

I could not believe how fast forward a walk pace a 20" surface cleaner with 3 arm zero deg. 0003 nozzles at 8 gpm @ 3600 was able to do without stripes. Wish I made video.

That tool is universal, if i can dig one up I'm not using just text the address, ill send it

Thanks for the offer Ron, but I dont have an "s-style" arm for the mosmatic, so I would not be able to use the tool. As a matter of fact I dont know of anyone one who has "s-style" arms installed in a mosmatic.

[Jim Gamble 20]

Using a 0 deg tip just makes you walk / clean slower. With that you are using a pin point to try to clean. Look at it like this, If you are cleaning flat work with a Lance would you use a 0 deg tip? Why not, O thats right it would take you longer to clean with that tip. Putting a 0 deg tip on a surface cleaner then adjusting the angle to spin faster, you still are trying to use a pin point to clean, You will never get it clean in a reasonable time. Leave it at 15 deg and use a 15deg tip

I agree with you Ed, if you are using a standard washer with a self propelled surface cleaner.

In our situation, when using a 0 degree, we can clean faster then the normal water propelled surface cleaning units using a 25 degree nozzle.

We are now cleaning ( EVERY SQUARE INCH ) of a 350,000 sq ft garage, walls, stairways etc with FULL reclamation and Full rinse down, in 1 long day. All while using a 0 degree tips.

[Jim Gamble 20]

I agree with you Ed, if you are using a standard washer with a self propelled surface cleaner.

In our situation, when using a 0 degree, we can clean faster then the normal water propelled surface cleaning units using a 25 degree nozzle.

We are now cleaning ( EVERY SQUARE INCH ) of a 350,000 sq ft garage, walls, stairways etc with FULL reclamation and Full rinse down, in 1 long day. All while using a 0 degree tips.

On extreme dirty garages, it will take us an extra day for floor, walls and stairs. Add ceiling / hand washing of pipes add another day. Each day about 12-14 hours.

Again, we use over 275 degrees. 210 degrees simple does not clean as well when it comes to oil removal. The hotter the water, the better. In some cases we use up to 325 degrees for those tuff deep oil stains. Again, all with 0 degree nozzles at over 3,500 RPMs. Our Turbo Twisters are modified for us to reach these spec's.

[Scott Stone 604]

Jim, we have been through this time and again, you have even admitted it, you do not clean at those super hot temperatures, because it does not clean nearly as effectively as lower temperatures. It was proven in front of multiple people in Las Vegas, when you cleaned an area, and someone with a small, standard pressure washer went over the same area, and the area came out much cleaner. I have heard it from at least 5 different people that saw the demonstration. It is a great marketing gimmick, but in reality, that is all it really is, a marketing gimmick. I have explained the science to you multiple times, and you refuse to understand. Unless you can explain how water can clean at 275 degrees after it exits the nozzle, and stay in a liquid state, this is all a bunch of BS marketing.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Scott Stone

[810F250 14]

Scott I am not an engineer, but I have a little thermodynamics understanding,

you have to consider the "Latent heat of Vaporization" and use a "steam tables" to determine what percentage of water (at a particular temperature and pressure) would turn to steam at atmospheric pressure. Not all will turn to steam immediately.

The energy that is needed to heat the water above boiling 212F is released and trapped buy the surface cleaner dome aiding in the removal of hydrocarbons. This extra heat energy is not produced if temps are below boiling.

Remember water can exist at 212F and steam can exist at 212F (the energy required to change all the water to steam at the same 212F is the latent heat of vaporization)

I am sure you heard the saying "a steam burn is far worse than a hot water burn";.......the latent heat is the reason , there is simply far more energy in the steam beyond the boiling point

You have to consider too that Jim uses zero degree nozzles thus there is exponentially less expansion at the nozzle as compared to a fan tip (expansion = cooling) (no expansion =higher water temp just outside nozzle)

Lastly the zero degree nozzle impact is 1.9 x psi, far greater than 15 deg or 25 deg. at the same distance,

Finally Jim's modified turbo twister drives the water into the dirt another increase in forces. (unfortunately he did not bring those units to Vegas)

[Paul Kassander 26]

If you take the arms of the 4 nozzle surface cleaner and angle them back to get a greater rpm you are not really increasing your cleaning power. Any amount of flow that is taken away from the down force or impact of the water hitting the surface will reduce cleaning capacity. While a 0 degree nozzle may increase your cleaning force I would be careful in its use in a surface cleaner because it is so aggressive. Also with it being so close to the surface if you get hug up or stop for a second I can see the potential for damage becoming a problem. I would suggest nothing smaller than a 5 degree nozzle and even that may be a bit aggressive for some. Another issue to take into consideration is what rpm the swivels are rated for if you spin them too fast they may leak or wear out faster than usual.

[Scott Stone 604]

I won't have time for a few days to respond. But the first challenge is to find a hose that can handle the pressure WITH the heat. Like I said, I have some long days ahead of me so do not have time to respond.

[Jerry 24]

I've been building custom systems for this industry for over 25 years..

I'm going to have to see that with my own eyes.

..

nuf said

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Scott, I want to Know when your going to let the cat out of the bag on your riding self contained garage cleaning vehicle?

This is not a Joke, Scotts has actual vehicles he uses. He may get upset about me annoucing that but I really think its time you show the world Scott.

Is it called the STONE RIDER!!!

Jim and some others might think I'm joking about this but I'm not. Scotts light years ahead of most in this business, I suspect he will stay the front runner as secret as he keeps his technology.

Jim, we have been through this time and again, you have even admitted it, you do not clean at those super hot temperatures, because it does not clean nearly as effectively as lower temperatures. It was proven in front of multiple people in Las Vegas, when you cleaned an area, and someone with a small, standard pressure washer went over the same area, and the area came out much cleaner. I have heard it from at least 5 different people that saw the demonstration. It is a great marketing gimmick, but in reality, that is all it really is, a marketing gimmick. I have explained the science to you multiple times, and you refuse to understand. Unless you can explain how water can clean at 275 degrees after it exits the nozzle, and stay in a liquid state, this is all a bunch of BS marketing.

Jim I love ya big guy, I saw that with my own eyes. Vapor will not clean as effective as the proper heat and pressure combo.

Thats leads me to this question for Nigel and Jerry, what is that right pressure combo water volume?

Edited January 19, 2011 by Ron Musgraves

[810F250 14]

Scott I am not an engineer, but I have a little thermodynamics understanding,

you have to consider the "Latent heat of Vaporization" and use a "steam tables" to determine what percentage of water (at a particular temperature and pressure) would turn to steam at atmospheric pressure. Not all will turn to steam immediately.

The energy that is needed to heat the water above boiling 212F is released and trapped buy the surface cleaner dome aiding in the removal of hydrocarbons. This extra heat energy is not produced if temps are below boiling.

Remember water can exist at 212F and steam can exist at 212F (the energy required to change all the water to steam at the same 212F is the latent heat of vaporization)

I am sure you heard the saying "a steam burn is far worse than a hot water burn";.......the latent heat is the reason , there is simply far more energy in the steam beyond the boiling point

You have to consider too that Jim uses zero degree nozzles thus there is exponentially less expansion at the nozzle as compared to a fan tip (expansion = cooling) (no expansion =higher water temp just outside nozzle)

Lastly the zero degree nozzle impact is 1.9 x psi, far greater than 15 deg or 25 deg. at the same distance,

Finally Jim's modified turbo twister drives the water into the dirt another increase in forces. (unfortunately he did not bring those units to Vegas)

Understanding what is occuring with Jim's technique and temperatures, maybe even more complaicted, after reading this wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isenthalpic

An isenthalpic process or isoenthalpic process is a process that proceeds without any change in enthalpy, H; or specific enthalpy, h.[1]

In a steady-state, steady-flow process, significant changes in pressure and temperature can occur to the fluid and yet the process will be isenthalpic if there is no transfer of heat to or from the surroundings, no work done on or by the surroundings, and no change in the kinetic energy of the fluid.[2] (If a steady-state, steady-flow process is analysed using a control volume everything outside the control volume is considered to be the surroundings.[3])

The throttling process is a good example of an isenthalpic process. Consider the lifting of a relief valve or safety valve on a pressure vessel. The specific enthalpy of the fluid inside the pressure vessel is the same as the specific enthalpy of the fluid as it escapes from the valve.[2] With a knowledge of the specific enthalpy of the fluid, and the pressure outside the pressure vessel, it is possible to determine the temperature and speed of the escaping fluid

If indeed it is an isenthalpic process as water exits the zero degree nozzle, the enthalpy of water in the hose at 300F is then equal to the enthalpy of water/steam exiting the zero nozzle (before impacting the surface), that energy is significantly higher than a pressure washer at 200F. (water enthalpy is ~ 50% more ...... @ 300F = 634KJ/kg vs 200F = 411KJ/kg).