Sic' it to some Sikkens (Removing Cetol Dek)

[bigchaz 157]

Did a deck today that was stained with 3 coats of Sikkens Cetol Dek. Starting to peel as it hadn't been done in 3 years. The homeowner had bad experience with the last application and I was able to sell on penetrating product without the shine and film of the Sikkens. Not to mention the application instructions for Sikkens are just not practical IMO...must be dry for 72 hours after staining...I dont think that has EVER happened in North Carolina!

Thanks to those who helped out with advice on this job, you know who you are. We took orbital sanders with 40 grit paper to the railings to scuff up the finish and take off the shine (20 minutes). Then loaded it full strength stripper (Timber Strip Pro) with Alka-Foam and 633AD booster from ACR products. Also added some Potassium Hydroxide flakes to heat it up even more. The alka-foam is awesome by the way...great cling.

Dwell time of about 45-50 minutes, spraying the deck about 3 times to keep everything wet and used about 55 total gallons of stripper. The top coats on the Sikkens melt off almost immediately as they have no adhesion to anything but the previous coating. It was slippery almost immediately. Its that base coat that takes the most time it seems. Temperature was around 85 today, deck was in partial sun.

After scratch test and another final spray of stripper we washed it down and came off very nicely. Boosted stripper like that usually reeks havoc on painted siding but no issue there (just some door trim which we will repaint). Wood gets super black so needs a good strong acid to neutralize.

Pictures are only during the stripping process and after final rinse down (dont have any before shots).

Edited August 31, 2011 by bigchaz

[RPetry 564]

I have had the same results as Dan with AC and I do have photo's. Out of respect to Jake I have not posted them. With many decks and garage doors.

Diamond Jim,

So many years ago, you, along with Tom of ACR and Peirce Fitchette of Ready Seal were my mentors. You took the time and trouble to help a new wood contractor with equipment, chemicals, and stains. Thank you.

I have only used AC stain 4 times, 2 on WRC, 2 on ipe'. Aside from the Rustic Brown fading a bit fast on one ipe' job, the stain has performed well here in NJ. No mold /mildew and the associated "blackening" problem.

But this is NJ, not New England. I have no doubt that you have had problems. Knowing you personally, I certainly trust you and your word.

But my earlier point to Daniel is this. You have been honorable. Instead of blanket disparaging public posts maligning a stain product, you have worked with the manufacturer to help identify and solve the problem. Anyone that has been in this business seriously knows that wood stains can perform differently in various regions of the country.

Too many contractors in most regions of the U.S. have used AC stains for years now with success. For many, if not most, AC is a good product.

We both know of another very well known, major stain manufacturer that had some serious issues in the North Central states. Instead of a public hue and cry from the affected contractors, they worked with the manufacturer to identify the cause. A slight tweak in the stain formulation solved the problem. This is how professionals help both themselves, their customers, manufacturers, and industry perception.

All that being said, these boards can serve as a "early warning" system to contractors and homeowners. Many remember a countrywide, instead of regional, drying issue with a popular "contractor grade" wood stain. In that case, a public outcry was justified. Working together, contractors found a possible solution and moved on. I don't know if the manufacturer did.

I stand by my earlier statements in this thread. Think and act responsibly before publicly condemning a manufacturer, distributor, or God forbid, a specific contractor on these highly visible web sites.

[plainpainter 217]

I certainly can understand how a formulated product can work great in one area of the country and not the next. I have talked to Jake, and he didn't seem open to 'teaking' his product. Perhaps he already has and I don't know it, that product won't show up until next year on my decks. I can only base what I see and what folks tell me, from what I laid down two seasons ago.

I haven't sat on my laurels on this either - I have changed Jake's product, I add 3 ingredients to it now - we'll see how that works in the coming years. I just want a product that works and works well, that doesn't get a lot of mildew, and when it does is easily cleaned without being stripped.

[James 625]

Trying to become an internet company has it's risk and this is one of them. Real world results. Contractors who want to discuss results but don't because someone's a good guy ? Sealers affect our business and it takes two years to get results. Is this not a wood board or was a wood board? It's disturbing to me that contractors don't want to discuss there problems because they promote a product on there web sight and don't want that info out. I do a lot of testing and if a find an issue others must be having the same problems. I have found people reluctant to talk ?

This type of discussion should be done out of view of the public.

[RPetry 564]

... This type of discussion should be done out of view of the public.

Agreed.

[plainpainter 217]

Do we have a section here that is out of public view? On painttalk - there is a section called the 'zone' where only members, advanced members can talk - that would be really cool if we had that here.

[plainpainter 217]

The main reason why I became very public about this, is that I am small company - and I trusted what other members said about this product and risked my business on it. Only because I just don't do enough work to have many experiments going on at the same time. I had to embrace this product 100% on the faith of what other members said. I initially saw very good results with the semisolid line on Mahogany - and my initial thoughts were this is just inline with the experience of others. But several months later when I had issues on my own little porch last year, and then with each additional data point of feedback, the picture just increasingly became sour. I am outright mad.

So there were all these 'pumpers' for the product 2 and 3 years ago, how come that's ok to publicly say how great a product is? Yet when my results are 180 degrees opposite - I am suppose to shutup, and I am not being nice to the manufacturer? I have no interest in bashing a product for the sake of doing so, I don't have any ownership in any competing stain company. I just want a stain that is reasonably good quality that I can back by my two year warranty and grow my company with. So far nothing I have used works better than what I was buying for $18/gallon 7 years ago. Hopefully, TWP will give reasonable life and not grow a ton of mildew.

[RSuds 24]

Yo, no one got my remark about watching the stripper work??? Anyone?

[bigchaz 157]

Yo, no one got my remark about watching the stripper work??? Anyone?

Haha you can tell we are all woodies when the first definition that comes to mind for the word "stripper" is in fact the caustic chemical . Funny thing....I dont remember who I was talking to but I was commenting to someone the other day how after a long day of work sometimes after i shower i still smell the stripper on me...I got a massive double take LOL

Edited September 4, 2011 by bigchaz

[RPetry 564]

... So there were all these 'pumpers' for the product 2 and 3 years ago, how come that's ok to publicly say how great a product is? Yet when my results are 180 degrees opposite - I am suppose to shutup, and I am not being nice to the manufacturer? ...

Daniel,

I think you are missing the point, or at least my point. No one is denying that you, Diamond Jim, and others may be having mildew problems with some applications of AC stain. But the evidence suggests that this may be in part due to geographic region and climate.

I am not far from Diamond Jim. We did a job two years ago together and the drive was about 1.5 hrs. away for each of us. I've applied AC stain on 4 jobs, the first 3 about 3 yrs. ago, and have not seen any finish issues. I am in NJ, not Conn. or Mass.

Back in 2009 in another thread, Alan Broom of Shine Brite in Georgia posted the following:

... I'm the backwards dummy down here in the heart of Dixie that's been hooked on AC for 4+ years now. ...

From what I understand, Alan was one of the first East coast wood contractors to use AC stain.

I met Alan nearly 2 yrs. ago at the ***** convention in Orlando. He is no "backwards dummy" but a well educated, intelligent man who comes from a family that owned a sawmill and lumber yard. His restoration business has been using AC stains since ~ 2006 and continues to use the stain today. If he had serious issues with the product, I can guarantee he would drop it in a heartbeat.

AC stain has been around for probably 20 yrs. or more on the West coast. Jake Clark purchased the company many years ago from a Mr. Armstrong, and has been distributing/retailing stain primarily in California and the Pacific Northwest. I know that Sherwin Williams stores in that area have been carrying the line for many years. If there was a quality issue with the product, do you think these retailers would continue to offer it to their customers?

What really set me off Daniel was your following post on this thread. -

It's your funeral, Charlie, I'll write you a nice eulogy though!

Charlie of Apex Deck Savers in NC is obviously one of the more accomplished wood restoration contractors on The Grime Scene. Do you think Charlie, who has been using AC stains for maybe 3 years now would continue if he had any serious problems with quality or performance?

The Woodtux drying debacle deserved public airing as it was obvious that this was a serious product flaw experienced nationwide. Unless other contractors from around the country weigh in on AC mildew issues, there is no evidence that it is an overall quality - mildewcide product problem.

The public reads these boards. I personally get a decent amount of new business from customers that have read my postings here. Other wood restoration contractors from around the US and world reads these boards. Distributors, manufacturers, painters and others reads these boards.

Be responsible and aware of the impact before publicly "bashing" a product.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick, I am not 'bashing' a product - just recounting my experience.

[RPetry 564]

Rick, I am not 'bashing' a product - just recounting my experience.

Daniel,

You still do not understand. Put yourself in Jake Clark's shoes, or Alan Broom's shoes, Scott Paul's shoes, Tom Vogel's shoes, Charlie Snoden's shoes. You may very well be hurting their businesses.

The general public and probably some newer contractors do not know your context or intent. All they read is that AC blackens and feeds mildew. Which, from what I have experienced and understand, is false for most people in most areas of the US.

[Tom DeFrancesco 23]

I think the job came out great Charlie. Nice work. My only 2 cents are I did an identical job a year ago. Customers hired an "individual" that I am acquainted with to Pressure wash there redwood deck which had 2 coats of sickens on it. This individual runs a Maid service but offers PW'ing. Individual called me in a panic that he destroyed this deck and if I can fix it. What I did is use F-18 (I swear by it) at a strong concentration. Think it was 12-13 oz per/gal. Let dwell for 20 min and rinsed with 150 deg water. I know some guys just cringed but the fact of the matter is it worked. We did some de-ferring but otherwise came out great. A very knowledgable contractor that is north of me taught me that. Whenever I have a difficult strip I am not afraid to use some hot water.

[RPetry 564]

Tom,

Middle picture, nice job on the stripping and prep. What color of Ready Seal did you use?

[James 625]

Rick, some parts of this board are not for public view. If we cannot communicate between each other how do we find out issues with a product. Distributors and Sealing companies are not forth coming concerning problems. Thats what this board is for is it not? So it's OK for a company to be sponsor of the site and do major marketing to our industry but we have to keep it quiet and hush hush if there is a problem. I have not even touched on the problems I've had . I just changed everything back to what it was and lost a few clients due to product failure. I now have the project I did with you with issues.

[bigchaz 157]

Awesome work Tom, that is some beautiful wood. I don't personally have hot water and understand it can cause quite a bit of furring. But sometimes on these tough strips, just about anything you can do helps! As long as you plan for the sanding and prep, if I had hot water I sure wouldn't mind trying it on some of these paint strips and such.

[RPetry 564]

Rick, some parts of this board are not for public view. If we cannot communicate between each other how do we find out issues with a product. Distributors and Sealing companies are not forth coming concerning problems. Thats what this board is for is it not? So it's OK for a company to be sponsor of the site and do major marketing to our industry but we have to keep it quiet and hush hush if there is a problem. I have not even touched on the problems I've had . I just changed everything back to what it was and lost a few clients due to product failure. I now have the project I did with you with issues.

Diamond Jim,

I totally agree with you and have no qualms about informing each other of product problems on this web site. There is no question that you and Daniel, and I imagine others in certain climates/regions have had performance issues with some AC stains.

What I do object to is a blanket "this product sucks" type of statement or discussion when it is not warranted. Too many contractors have been using AC stains for years now with fine results. Included in this is me.

Jim, we're only what, 130 miles apart as the crow flies? The few jobs that I have used AC stain have turned out fine without mildew or degradation problems. Go figure. In fact, the AC Mahogany on ipe' is to this point performing better than any stain I have ever tested.

[Tom DeFrancesco 23]

Thanks Rick. We did MB. Never got a chance to go back and take pics after being stained. No access from ground and although customer was over the top thrilled with job I did not want to bother them to let me walk thru house just to take a picture. Charlie on dense woods you will not get furring. It's really just an option that can be used. Thank you for the compliment!!!

[RPetry 564]

Thanks Rick. We did MB. ...

Tom,

Medium brown RS is one of my slower sellers. A few cedar decks over the years. Light brown on decent WRC looks best to me. We do use MB on ipe', its a good color for customers that do not like any red tint. Ready Seal medium red is by far our biggest seller.

Charlie on dense woods you will not get furring. It's really just an option that can be used. Thank you for the compliment!!!

I'm getting pernickety in my elder years but I do have to take exception to this statement. Second to ebony, ipe' is one of the most dense woods in nature. Certainly for high end decks. Anyone ever heard or seen an ebony deck? !!!

We work on a lot of ipe'. As dense as the wood is, it does fir. Not much, but enough to require a quick, light sanding after a medium strip or hard cleaning. Otherwise, oil stains look a bit blotchy after application.

Thank you for the compliment!!!

You are welcome, but no need for thanks. You earned it.

[RSuds 24]

I like Thompson's?????

[RPetry 564]

I like Thompson's?????

Brian,

What is your handicap? For others, golf of course...

[Celeste 341]

Daniel,

I think you are missing the point, or at least my point. No one is denying that you, Diamond Jim, and others may be having mildew problems with some applications of AC stain. But the evidence suggests that this may be in part due to geographic region and climate.

I am not far from Diamond Jim. We did a job two years ago together and the drive was about 1.5 hrs. away for each of us. I've applied AC stain on 4 jobs, the first 3 about 3 yrs. ago, and have not seen any finish issues. I am in NJ, not Conn. or Mass.

Back in 2009 in another thread, Alan Broom of Shine Brite in Georgia posted the following: From what I understand, Alan was one of the first East coast wood contractors to use AC stain.

I met Alan nearly 2 yrs. ago at the ***** convention in Orlando. He is no "backwards dummy" but a well educated, intelligent man who comes from a family that owned a sawmill and lumber yard. His restoration business has been using AC stains since ~ 2006 and continues to use the stain today. If he had serious issues with the product, I can guarantee he would drop it in a heartbeat.

AC stain has been around for probably 20 yrs. or more on the West coast. Jake Clark purchased the company many years ago from a Mr. Armstrong, and has been distributing/retailing stain primarily in California and the Pacific Northwest. I know that Sherwin Williams stores in that area have been carrying the line for many years. If there was a quality issue with the product, do you think these retailers would continue to offer it to their customers?

What really set me off Daniel was your following post on this thread. - Charlie of Apex Deck Savers in NC is obviously one of the more accomplished wood restoration contractors on The Grime Scene. Do you think Charlie, who has been using AC stains for maybe 3 years now would continue if he had any serious problems with quality or performance?

The Woodtux drying debacle deserved public airing as it was obvious that this was a serious product flaw experienced nationwide. Unless other contractors from around the country weigh in on AC mildew issues, there is no evidence that it is an overall quality - mildewcide product problem.

The public reads these boards. I personally get a decent amount of new business from customers that have read my postings here. Other wood restoration contractors from around the US and world reads these boards. Distributors, manufacturers, painters and others reads these boards.

Be responsible and aware of the impact before publicly "bashing" a product.

Wow, considering that we WERE professionally injured by the attack on WT - and we have very respectfully & publicly spoken of our issues with AC Clark - I guess you still have to be in that "other" group to have an opinion count or be protected.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This thread....is supposed to be about removing Sikkens Cetol DEK product....correct?

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I like Thompson's?????

lol

troublemaker!

Rod!~

[James 625]

Celeste , what Russell did back then and how it was handled was criminal. The attach on Wood Tux was a result of what a person and product did and didn't do.

[Celeste 341]

But it still doesn't excuse the publicity and the ramifications on innocent parties ---