water supply question and tip

[CLASSICPW 14]

I've got a pool deck job coming up and the customer has no water pressure at all. I'd like to get a submersible pump with the garden hose connection,to drop in the pool, but do these have a pressure relief valve? I saw the lake-draw thing they have at Delco, but it's just a hose with a screen. Does that make sense?

I had a job today where there was a well with very low water pressure, so I Mcgyvered a y connect into my machine using 2 garden hoses, one from each feed off the house. Worked like a charm.

Can you tell that I really need to haul my own water?!...... Workin on it.

[One Tough Pressure 580]

The Delco thing is used to draw water from a lake, or in your case a pool, and makes perfect sense to me. You hook the line to the machine and drop the other end in the water body you want to pull from.

[PressurePros 248]

In the case of well water (which I run into often) could drawing from two taps cause damage to the well pump by forcing it to overwork? This may be a stupid question but I am not familiar with how this type of water system actually works.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jamie,

You can get a tank (still a good idea).... you can also go to WSSC and rent a meter to keep with you so you can access hydrants. At times this can come in VERY handy. We have found it is worth the expese to keep one rented year round.

Heck, you can run two machines off of one hydrant. Did that yesterday as a matter of fact. Worked like a charm.

Beth :groovy2: :cup:

[PressurePros 248]

Jamie,

You can get a tank (still a good idea).... you can also go to WSSC and rent a meter to keep with you so you can access hydrants. At times this can come in VERY handy. We have found it is worth the expese to keep one rented year round.

Heck, you can run two machines off of one hydrant. Did that yesterday as a matter of fact. Worked like a charm.

Beth :groovy2: :cup:

Good morning Beth. You mean fire hydrants?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yes. Fire hydrants. Sorry.... I have more coffee now. Thanks for catching that. :cup:

Beth :groovy:

[CLASSICPW 14]

The pump will pull water? I thought that pw machines needed water pressure to work properly.

[PLD 14]

Jamie,

You can get a tank (still a good idea).... you can also go to WSSC and rent a meter to keep with you so you can access hydrants. At times this can come in VERY handy. We have found it is worth the expese to keep one rented year round.

Heck, you can run two machines off of one hydrant. Did that yesterday as a matter of fact. Worked like a charm.

Beth :groovy2: :cup:

Just two?!? A 1.5" line will provide ~100gpm. Most temp meters are 2.5" and can provide over 300gpm. I open mine up wide to blow out the gunk before I start, and it throws a 2.5" column of water about 75 feet. The meter dial spins like a top.

Before you buy a 2.5" SHT -> 3/4 hose thread adapter, ask the county for one. I paid $25 and when I returned the meter, the volunteered that I could have borrowed one for free.

[PressurePros 248]

Yes. Fire hydrants. Sorry.... I have more coffee now. Thanks for catching that. :cup:

Beth :groovy:

I wasn't correcting you, I just did not know it was legal to touch them. More details please?

[CLASSICPW 14]

I wish I could use a hydrant, the houses that I do are in nowhere land, but then again how do myou access a hydrant? I'd like the info for future reference, thanks.

[PLD 14]

I wish I could use a hydrant, the houses that I do are in nowhere land, but then again how do myou access a hydrant? I'd like the info for future reference, thanks.

Go see your local water dept. The will loan (w/ deposit) or rent you a water meter fitted to attach to the 2.5" outlet on a hydrant. The output of the meter is typically also 2.5" SHT so you will need an adapter to your rig's feed. Each month you take the meter in to be read and get a bill.

FWIW, I washed 165 apartments and used 40k gallons ($3.50/per). That sounds like alot per unit, but we spoiled the bypass to the storm sewer and ran the pump 8+ hrs/day. Having said that I now realize that 40K is about twice what should have been used at 4gpm. Hmmm. Where did the extra 20k go? Any ideas?

Things to know:

- Standard Hose Thread (SHT) on the hydrants matches NOTHING commonly available. Any adapters/hoses you may need will have to be ordered from a fire supply hose or specialty store. Ask your water authority for one, they may have it for loan. If not, call ga fire rescue (http://www.georgiafirerescue.com)

- Open the hydrant and dump 2-300 gallons to blow out the crap in the lines.

- hydrant must be opened all the way to close the drains. failure to do so will create a sinkhole around the hydrant and really muddy water.

- Because the hydrant must be wide open, your meter needs a valve to regulate flow. You will not need to open this much at all (10% ?) to charge a 3/4" supply line more than adequately.

- A wide open 2.5" with no pressure regulator is rough on garden hose. I have cheap supply hose and experienced a half dozen ruptures in 10 days. Some were a combination of cars and pressure. Some were just excessive pressure.

- Pressure varies quite a bit by location. Pressures are set to be useable at the end of the line. If you are near the main and/or pump house they may be 2-3x what they are at the end of the line.

- You may be working with dirty water.

- A portable meter weights about 100# and is 18"x18"x48". Plan room on the trailer. It's bulky and one man can move it, but two makes it much easier.

- You may need to have your tank inspected to see that it is filled with an air gap. If so, fashon one from PVC and make sure that the air gap is 2x the feed pipe size.

- Carry your permit with you. Residents have a habit of calling the authorities when they see you taking water from a hydrant. Most authorities see the meter and just wave or stop and chat for a few minutes but you never know when they may actually check.

- Don't get smart and open the 5" outlet to clear the mud. A *frightening* amount of water will flow before you can get the hydrant 1/3 open. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Contact your local water authority. In Md, is it WSSC that is in charge of the meters. You rent the meter for a period of time. With it comes a big wrench. The meter allows you to use hydrant water, and the meter keeps track of how much you use. When you take the meter back, they read it and you pay for the water. If you have ever been by a construction site where they don't have plumbing yet, you might have seen one on a hydrant then, so the construction folks have water.

I'll try to snap a pic of hte meter and wrench later.

Beth :cup: :sunshine: :groovy3: :island:

[Washaway 64]

I've thought of getting a meter to simply offer not having to use the customers' water. Make it a selling point for hiring us instead of the competition.

[Washaway 64]

FWIW, I washed 165 apartments and used 40k gallons ($3.50/per). That sounds like alot per unit, but we spoiled the bypass to the storm sewer and ran the pump 8+ hrs/day. Having said that I now realize that 40K is about twice what should have been used at 4gpm. Hmmm. Where did the extra 20k go? Any ideas?

You used 40,000 gal of water to wash 165 apartments?

At $3.50/gal? And your missing 20,000 gal?

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding something!

Or was the 3.50 was your water charge for each apartment?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I've thought of getting a meter to simply offer not having to use the customers' water. Make it a selling point for hiring us instead of the competition.

This comes in handy when folks have well water rather than city water at times.

Beth

[One Tough Pressure 580]

You used 40,000 gal of water to wash 165 apartments?

At $3.50/gal? And your missing 20,000 gal?

Please tell me that I'm misunderstanding something!

Or was the 3.50 was your water charge for each apartment?

I took it to mean $3.50 per 1000 gallons

[Mike 64]

Interesting topic, I also would like to see a picture of this meter in action. Do they show you how to use it?

[One Tough Pressure 580]

- hydrant must be opened all the way to close the drains. failure to do so will create a sinkhole around the hydrant and really muddy water.

- Because the hydrant must be wide open, your meter needs a valve to regulate flow. You will not need to open this much at all (10% ?) to charge a 3/4" supply line more than adequately.

A portable meter weights about 100# and is 18"x18"x48". Plan room on the trailer. It's bulky and one man can move it, but two makes it much easier.

:)

What drains do you speak of and why would it matter if the hydrant is all the way open or not? I use a hydrant all the time and only turn on as much as I need.

Meters vary from small to large, but I have never seen one as large as you describe. Just add a hot box and you gor a full size skid.

[PLD 14]

You used 40,000 gal of water to wash 165 apartments?

At $3.50/gal? And your missing 20,000 gal?

Found the missing water. Meter reader (me) error. It was more like 14k gallons. That's more on target. ~70 hours at 4gpm.

[PLD 14]

What drains do you speak of and why would it matter if the hydrant is all the way open or not? I use a hydrant all the time and only turn on as much as I need.

Check with your water dept. For almost all hydrants made in the last 50 years partial opens are a big no-no. Hydrants are "stored" dry to prevent corrosion. There are drain ports at the base of the hydrant just above the "seal washer". When the screw is opened all the way, the valve is full open to the main and the seal closes off the drain ports. When it's closed, the main is sealed and the drain ports are full open. When it's part way, water flows from the main out the hose nipples AND the drain ports under pressure. Underground at the main, this erodes the earth into the flow (think sinkhole) and removes the earth from around the hydrant bottom.

Meters vary from small to large, but I have never seen one as large as you describe. Just add a hot box and you gor a full size skid.

The meter itself is just ~6" x 12". But all Ga meters now require a backflow preventer (also 6"x12") and a gate valve after the meter. This is bolted inside an 18x18x36 aluminum cage with two 4" wheels for transport. Because this style of assembly cannot be threaded directly onto the hydrant anymore, add 4ft of 3" hose, a 90^ elbow and a hydrant coupler. The hose and elbow alone weigh about 20 lbs. The whole assembly is easily 100# and quite unwieldly. If you are not using these style meters now, plan on it soon.

Oddly, I would have expected Calif to have added the safetly measures long before Ga.

[Washaway 64]

Nope. 40k gallons. I read the meter start and finish and periodically. It was never out of my possession. I never thought twice about the usage until this post when I calc'd it out. That's 21 days of 8hr/day usage and we only worked 10-11.

$3.50/thousand gal. About $140 worth of water.

Ah,,that's bareable. Chicken feed in comparison to the type of money you make in that 21 days. Plus, it's something that you factor into your job quote.

[CLASSICPW 14]

I'm very thankful for the info on the hydrant issue, that'll come in handy, but back to my question. Has anyone used the robert's river kit to suction water from a lake, pond, or in my case a pool? If not can a sump pump be used? thanks.

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Interesting info, I will have to check into this on our hydrants.

Check with your water dept. For almost all hydrants made in the last 50 years partial opens are a big no-no. Hydrants are "stored" dry to prevent corrosion. There are drain ports at the base of the hydrant just above the "seal washer". When the screw is opened all the way, the valve is full open to the main and the seal closes off the drain ports. When it's closed, the main is sealed and the drain ports are full open. When it's part way, water flows from the main out the hose nipples AND the drain ports under pressure. Underground at the main, this erodes the earth into the flow (think sinkhole) and removes the earth from around the hydrant bottom.

The meter itself is just ~6" x 12". But all Ga meters now require a backflow preventer (also 6"x12") and a gate valve after the meter. This is bolted inside an 18x18x36 aluminum cage with two 4" wheels for transport. Because this style of assembly cannot be threaded directly onto the hydrant anymore, add 4ft of 3" hose, a 90^ elbow and a hydrant coupler. The hose and elbow alone weigh about 20 lbs. The whole assembly is easily 100# and quite unwieldly. If you are not using these style meters now, plan on it soon.

Oddly, I would have expected Calif to have added the safetly measures long before Ga.

I'm very thankful for the info on the hydrant issue, that'll come in handy, but back to my question. Has anyone used the robert's river kit to suction water from a lake, pond, or in my case a pool? If not can a sump pump be used? thanks.

How about just dropping your line in the pool, and excluding the sump pump.

[CLASSICPW 14]

Back to the original topic for a sec, I washed the deck today, well, at least half of it. The Roberts river kit from Delco was a major disappointment. It was about $45 with $20 3 day shipping, when it came in the mail I realized that I could've made it myself for about $20. I siphoned the water from the pool into my washer, but that was nowhere near enough gpm for the washer to even work. I went to home depot and bought a submersible utility pump that put out 1400 gal per hour which worked great until it grounded out halfway through. On top of all that right before the pump gave up a thunderstorm was brewing with lots of lightning. Days like this make you want to throw in the towel, but I see it as a learning experience. Oh well, I'm going back tomorrow with a better pump and a more level head. BTW the job is a referral and 45 min away.......lovin it!!!

[beyoungsr 14]

Do you have any concerns about running the pool water directly through your pump?

Did you have to check PH or chlorine levels or anything else prior to using it?

Is your machine belt drive or direct drive?

What do mean by grounding out the pump?

[CLASSICPW 14]

The pool was from last year, so the chlorine level was not that high, but I did notice that when I mixed my HD-80 stripper with the pool water my sprayer was warm to the touch....I guess the 2 were interacting. It didn't really matter, the job came out beautiful after I neutralized it. It took 10 hours to complete the pwash part at which i bid at $750 so It wasnt that bad, I usually do much better, but it turned out so well that I can't complain. I'm not sure why it matters, but my machine is direct drive. As far as the pump, it just kept tripping the gfci and the only thing we could guess is that it went bad somehow(grounding out somehow? I don't know) when I brought the new one the next day it worked fine. I'm going back Sat to apply a Sikkens semi, I hope that goes well. The best part about the job is that the pool is not covered and she's replacing the liner after the deck is done so it doesn't matter what gets into the pool.