1st Annual Acrylic - Stripper Showdown...

[RPetry 564]

For any other perverse idiots out there in woodcare that try to take on these impossible jobs, this may be of interest.

THE CHAMPION - 3, count 'em, 3 layers of Behr's Deck Plus acrylic - latex solid stain on the horizontal and it looks like 2 of the same on the vertical wood.

THE CONTENDERS - from left to right.

#1 - Napier's Removall 310. Got to give it a handicap as the specs clearly state that it should be applied with an airless. Was not going to spend $200 for a 5 gallon container to test. Would not hang on the vertical wood with a brush application.

#2 - That old standby, Back to Nature's BFS II. Its done some terrrific work for many in the past but is near impossible to apply mechanically.

#3 - A product that is being developed that I was asked to test. Consistancy is almost like jello and even after mixing doesn't come out even. Manufacturer claims it will go through a pump up but I don't think so. But hey, ya gotta love that neon blue color.

#4 - Back to Nature's Ready Strip Deck. Even consistancy, will certainly pass through a pump up or Shurflo. A lot less expensive than #1 or #2.

I have preliminary results but only stayed around for an hour. Will go back sometime early tomorrow to see if there is any change.

Please, if anyone out there knows how to remove these foul acrylics from exterior wood without spending a fortune in materials and time, please chime in.

[Brian Keating 14]

If it's not a huge deck try to sell them on re-decking the floor with new wood and applying a new coat of acrylic on the vertials. The time and materials would probably come really close.

[JFife 14]

Nice Rick!!

The blue color is cool, you could scare customers and tell them it is radioactive. You are right, don't expect much the way you have the Removall brushed on there. Brushing it is actually counter-productive until it has started working. You'd be better off testing it by just pouring out a big glob of it. BTN does brush better. Let us know tomorrow what the results are!

[RPetry 564]

Brian,

The 2 decks are ~1200 sq. ft. PT of horizontal and step risers, no balustrade as the perimeter is masonary stucco walls. Also a kind of L shaped built in bench. Hard to describe but relatively little vertical wood.

In this area of NJ I would guess tear down and rebuild would be 20-24K.

Jon,

Yeah, that blue color is kind of scary. Why can't these manufacturers market a product thats reasonable to apply, doesn't cost a ton of $, and is effective on these garbage acrylics? The answer from one manu. was real straight-forward, "wood guys will not pay for a superior product". And I'm sure he is right. Owns the co., makes some of the best strippers in the business for all sorts of applications, and has been doing it for 18 years.

As a whole, we're hucksters doing anything to make a quick buck. Has anyone run into an acrylic deck finish that the previous contractor bothered to lay down an oil based primer? How many throw on a quick single application of Ready Seal on the horizontals and grab the check? For that matter, how many even use a decent stain?

I admit to taking shortcuts when I first started out. But with a little effort, experience, and the wonderful resources like this board, tried to learn to do things right. In all good conscience and logic, how can anyone work this hard to do a rotten job?

Enough said. Reed had a post on another thread that mentioned the word "Jane" written in one layer of acrylic. I'm afraid thats not an exception in this business.

[RPetry 564]

No one. I now understand why they do these tests in a lab. Of course, their results don't necessarily apply under field conditions but if you are going to compare different products, the conditions have to be ideal. I didn't get back to the site until ~ 22 hrs after application. It started raining ~ 8 hrs. after these strippers were applied and continued off and on the following day. No telling how the water affected each product, but I doubt it was helpful to any. All four had allowed the acrylic to re-emulsify (think thats the right word) or harden. What is odd is that both colors were the same Behr's markings on the cans, but the white stain acted more like a latex. In 45 min. BFS II had it bubbled up whereas on the blue horizontal, it had just begun to work.

I would like to apologize for the previous post. I certainly was not referring to members of this board or others that try and do a good job. Its been a most frustrating week trying to pick up the pieces on wood that uninformed contractors have left me to deal with. Just curious. Has anyone stripped an acrylic and found an oil base primer underneath? If so, did it make the acrylic more "strippable" ?

As far as the strippers go, I do have some observations.

Fastest Acting - Removall 310. Within ~ 25 minutes had really started to eat the top layer of acrylic to the point of possible removal with a pressure washer.

Most Effective - Have to give this to Back to Nature's BFS II. It just had started working after an hour but appears to have gotten at least partially through all three coats before it dried and the finish started to re-emulsify.

The development stripper had started wrinkling the top after an hour. Did not wait around to see if a little move time could have removed the top acrylic layer with washing.

Ready Strip Deck needed agitation to get it to start working. I think this may remove a single layer of this acrylic with a little help by brushing and reapplication.

If I were going to tackle this job (which I won't), I think I would have both Back to Nature's BFS II and Removall 310 on site. First application would be Removall to get the top layer of acrylic off quickly. As some surfaces appear to have only one layer left of acrylic, a lot of bare wood would be exposed.

Next, BFS II would be applied and allowed to work. This would remove the one or two additional layers of acrylic.

[Dale 16]

"In this area of NJ I would guess tear down and rebuild would be 20-24K."

Rick..I think it would be much more reasonable than 20-24K. Alot of the cost in a deck is the labor and materials in the framing structure. All you'd have to replace is the deck boards. If you imagine doing the labor in stripping this to a a degree to look good with a semi. vs. the labor to remove and reinstall new boards..I'd rather replace the boards. If you were going to reapply with a soild you don't have to get ALL the old finish off. If the adhesion is good on the old stain..feather, oil prime and top-coat.

[RPetry 564]

Dale,

You would not believe the prices for real estate, property/school taxes, and services in this area of NJ. A plumber is $100/hr. I have a customer that just paid over $700 to have a kitchen sink hooked up. Working class people cannot buy a single family home. I'm not a deck builder, but the cheapest I have seen advertised was $15/sq. ft. in a less expensive area of NJ. I guarantee that the $15 a foot doesn't buy a whole lot.

I will not put an acrylic stain on any wood. Primed or not, its garbage. Until there is a stripper thats effective, easy to apply, and reasonable in price, you're just passing a huge problem to yourself or the next guy, harming the wood when it starts to fail, and creating a substantial future expense to the customer.

After doing a deck last year, I will not put a latex on vertical wood. The PT spindles and base were rotting, you could poke a hole through areas with your finger. I touched it up for them, but the customer knows it is going to need to be replaced. If it has to be a solid, it will only be oil based. When the VOC police finally shut that supply down, i guess its off to Costa Rica and retire.

Someone mentioned a breathable latex, I think it was Jon. if it allows the wood to dry out after the finish fails, I would like to know more.

[PressurePros 249]

Rick our part of the country is crazy with service industry pricing. My soon to be mother-in-law just got a bill from her shore home. Some clown electrician charged her $480 to replace an outlet. The invoice said "diagnose faulty outlet, replace wire and receptacle". Since every other outlet was working fine, and there were no tripped breakers, I'm pretty sure she got hosed. I didn't have a chance to get down there or I would have done it myself. Anyway, I know in my area $15 per square foot gets you pressure treated lumber from Home Depot.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Random intemperate thoughts sure to haunt me.......

Removall 310 works exactly as advertized if not better..personal experience..Hangs on verticals just fine when mixed all the way through and applied with a brush or high knap roller.

Cheap and good don't come in the same box..

Stripping acrylic isn't supposed to be easy..that's why it's acrylic..for durability. Wrapping the wood in a thin layer of plastic is the desired effect.

Re-skinning the deck is probably a more cost effective alternative, depending on what stain you are going back with.

It costs a hundred bucks an hour a plumber and that's highway robbery, but a hundred buck an hour for a pressure washer guy is ok??

Back to lurking...

[RPetry 564]

Random intemperate thoughts sure to haunt me.......

Re-skinning the deck is probably a more cost effective alternative, depending on what stain you are going back with.

It costs a hundred bucks an hour a plumber and that's highway robbery, but a hundred buck an hour for a pressure washer guy is ok??

Pam,

Read the whole thread. Point was the cost of living in certain areas, not plumbers as compared to pressure washers.

As far as "re-skinning", I assume you mean laying down another acrylic. Not on your life. I've got 3 people now with rotting wood due to this stuff and you think I'm going to add to the problem?

Tell me how to strip this junk in a cost effective way. I'll be more than pleased to eat my words.

[PressurePros 249]

Rick, after reading the post from a respected wood guy on here, I tried the HD-80 with boost on an acrylic and was successful at removing it. When I get done sealing the job later next week I'll post pictures.

On another note, I'm not sure that the problem the people are having with rot is from using an acrylic. The ones I have removed were intact. The stuff forms a fairly impenetrable water barrier so unknown variables like poor maintenance or bad prep are probably at fault.

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

I partially agree. Bad prep is part of the problem. Cabot's 1800 series clearly states on the can and spec sheets that an oil based primer must be used. Homeowners and quick buck contractors are not using the primer. I'm not sure about Behr's, their products are not worth the time to read the label. If prepped correctly and moisture readings are proper prior to application, I'm sure that acrylics will outlast any deck stain currently offered. But no homeowner and few contractors even know what a moisture meter is.

The real problem, as far as I can extrapolate, is when the acrylic starts to fail. It may not be readily seen for a year or so, but moisture gets into the wood with no where to go. Liquid water gets into the failed areas, and cannot evaporate. Cedar is especially vunerable. It rots if it stays wet.

One cedar deck I looked at with Cabots 1800 series applied two years ago is literally rotting as I write this. Another large PT deck, built 6 yrs. ago, with the 3 separate applications of Behr's acrylic is actually starting to self destruct. The horizontal deck boards have swelled to the point of no gaps between them, pulling the top stair trim and top stair risers apart.

And you cannot strip this stuff for a reasonable cost. I'm not sure if an oil based primer would help in stripping, cause I've never seen a job where it was used.

F-18 at 24 oz. to the gallon is only effective in failed or partially failed areas. I use to use HD-80, before "Boost". But they are still both NaOH based strippers that are not going to emulsify acrylic. My guess is if the NaOH can get between the acrylic and wood or 2nd stain underneath, it can break the "bond" of the finish. Yeah, they may get a lot of it off but you're still stuck sanding for an ungodly number of hours if you want to get it all off. Cause if 'ya don't, it will start peeling like dead skin, negating whatever you applied.

I swear, I will never put any film forming finish on exterior horizontal wood. And until someone recomends a "breathable" latex, it ain't going to on two tone verticals either.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Rick,

Pam did not write the note, I did.... see the signature line on the end of the post.. At any rate.. I have read the whole post and I stand by my statement. If it does not apply to you that's ok, the thoughts I wrote were ramblings and perceptions gathered from the tone (as I read it) from the post in general and not directed to any one person in particular.

Directy to you though I say this.

Re-skinning is, as has been mentioned above, a removal of all the horizontal wood and subsequent replacement. Yes it is expensive. Yes it is labor intensive. Yes it takes some man hours to complete. But the other side of the argument is that you can spend the same money and at least as much time whacking your head against this proverbial brick wall, and still have a crappy looking deck that you might end up having to cover with some type of film former. Where's the logic?

Removing acrylic isn't easy. Neither is it cheap. In this case there probably is no cost effective way to serve your client short of offering a re-skin or as has obviously happened prior, reapplying some type of solid color film forming stain.

The point here is that you are right. Bad prep, poor product choice, and **** poor maintenance is the bane of a deck guy's existance. You didn't create the problem, you are just there to solve it. The homeowner, as much as we like to call them friends, and in many cases do actually become our ('our' is used in the collective here) friends, are counting on us to educate and guide them to the next decision. It costs what it costs, and we are the guys they need to 'fix' it.

Give 'em the lowdown.. Most film formers suck, some hack ruined the deck, and you have choices A or B to do it right.

Choice A is expensive, labor intensive, and offers no suitable guarantee of results.

Choice B is expensive, labor intensive, but offers a tremendous outcome and a long happy life.

The choice is clear and you get paid either way.

[RPetry 564]

Cujo,

My apoigy for the missed name. If I was Cujo, I certainly would not want to be called Pam. Please don't bite.

Misinterpretation is the bane of all communitcation. When you stated re-skinned, I honestly thought your were speaking of re-applying an acrylic.

There are quite a few of us out there that only do wood. No concrete, no housewashing, no other pressure washing type of work, and at least some of us are concened.

I'll agree that if most of the wood is beyond repair and rotting. Tear it down, build it back up. Common sense. I'm not a deck builder.

What I am concerned with is fixing these problems. Like many, I am now prescreening my calls for estimates.

Does it look like dead skin, peeling off in strips?

Sorry Mr. X, I'm very busy and I'll call back in August.

This is not a professional approach. Wood guys should solve problems. A lot of these acrylic nightmares are not rotting at the time of the call for help.

Granted, every job is different, and there is no common solution. But I am seeing more of these failed acrylics than ever before.

Check out Consumer Reports this month. The problem is only going to get worst.

If you want to be a professional in the wood business. we are all going to have to learn how to deal with the problem. I cannot accept that wood replacement is cheaper than stripping.

Been fun, let's see what the future brings....

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Rick,

Glad to see we are all on the good side now :)

Anyway, the concept of wood replacement vs. wood stipping and the relative cost effectiveness of one vs. the other is not a difficult concept to grasp really.

Using the deck you highlighted in the beginning as an example, we'll go with some basline assumptions just for the ease of argument:

Let's assume that the deck in question is 750 sq ft of floor and all we are going to mess with is the floor. We are going along that there are no handrails or stairs..(keeping it simple)

We'll further go that Removall is the product of choice and your cost is about $50.00 per gallon. Coverage is about 150 sf/gl so this floor will eat up all 5 gallons on the first application. There's 250 clams.

Now add the time to apply, leave, come back tomorrow and strip..another 2 days shot to hell.

Now.. because it's acrylic, 3 layers deep, and just a pain in the can, you have to go through al this again, because the first go round didn't quite get it all well enough that you can cover it with say... Ready Seal... another $550.00

Ok..now you are in this for 4 days work, and still have to brighten, defur(maybe) and stain.. another combined day's labor plus materials..

OK.. so now we have total time invested..somewhere in the 5 day minimum range, close to $700.00 in materials, gas, supplies, and misc. stuff. and a deck that you have killed yourself over..You are going to have to charge close to $4000.00 to make this even close to worthwhile...and still might not get it to look great.

Compare the cost of replacing the boards...

P/T deck boards run about a dollar a foot.. so for about $1000 in wood and nails and a full day labor you can get the deck looking great again.. Come back in a month when the wood has dried, safewash, brighten, stain... voila! same amount of cash, but half the headache.

[RPetry 564]

Cujo,

Your lumber prices are nowhere near what we pay in Central NJ. Today, I priced out 5/4 x 6 ACQ from a reasonable supplier in this area. $1.31 per linear ft. Roughly equivalent to 2.60 per sq. ft.

Next is tear down. I've been honest throughout this thread, I am not a carpenter and don't pretend to be one. But the old rule of thumb I have heard is labor ~ 2 or 3 times the material installed. Thats installation, not tear down. In NJ today, I'll guess that a 30 yd. dumpster to dispose the old lumber costs $600. We don't have local town dumps anymore. It gets shipped out of state and costs a fortune.

I paid a little over $200 in high quality deck screws to install ~ 500 sq. ft. of my own "re-skinned" deck last year. Yeah, it was ipe and I went first class.

Enough.

Point is if we can't strip these acrylics substantially cheaper than wood replacement, we should be in another line of work. And may be in another few years.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick makes an interesting point, and at the risk of getting off topic, I'll go there....

Gas is over 2 bucks a gallon, so is diesel.

I don't know about you, but here we pay 3.50 for a gallon of milk...ON SALE.

Point is, that the cost of the fuel has had an impact on everything across the board, from our supplies to other consumable goods our customers buy for their daily lives. Now we are in an area, with many 2 income earning families, and a fair number of folks work at home. Also these folks typically drive 2 new SUV's, under 2 years old. A report on the news recently spoke about how the average american has over 10K in credit card debt. People are no longer as able to afford what they once could and are living off plastic. Housing here is insane. The restaurants are jam packed, and people put these meals on plastic.

People are also living off of home equity more. How many of you are concerned that if the Fed raises rates too fast, the housing market may become unstable and values may drop? That worries me. Bankruptcy is also on the rise...

Enough of my rant, but I really think that the impact is more complex than simple. I believe more people will attempt to do things themselves, out of the need to cut costs, and then will not be able to afford to deal with it. We have seen how many seem to feel they should not have to spend much for a great result, and somehow it also translates into us as contractors being unentitled to a fair wage in these times of rising costs.

Off the soap box....

Beth

[JFife 14]

.....not to mention, the number of downed trees it takes to replace a deck floor.......we are supposed to be in wood preservation, not wood destruction......I always make an environmental argument whenever people start telling me how they can replace wood for X amount and so on.......

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Rick...point taken... You material cost are far higher than here..I can buy cedar for that price. ACQ 5/4 x 6 southern yellow pine boards run as low as about 60 cents per running foot at the local Home Depot.

Jon..As much as this is going to sound like a kick in the sack, I really mean it with no personal animosity towards you. America's forests are far superior now than when the first white people ever set foot on this grand old spot of dirt known as the US of A, so the tree hugger argument is not only factually incorrect, but just plain old tired. There is nothing MAN MADE that is cheaper to build with than using the ONLY RENEWABLE resource known as wood.

Unless we all go back to mud huts and grass skirts, we'll be growing trees and then cutting them down to make stuff with.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

so the tree hugger argument is not only factually incorrect, but just plain old tired.

...and your source would be....? Got a study?

Beth

p.s. http://www.hoptechno.com/koyan.htm Koyaanisqatsi

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

In a macro perspective, housing may bust. Those on the financial edge with high credit debt and home equity lines are a pink slip away from foreclosure. I have had customers with a 750K home with no furniture in many of the rooms.

But the housing market is very micro. Here in central NJ, there is and has been such a strong demand, spikes in interest rates, stock market downturn, higher unemployment, and rising property taxes just don't seem to matter.

An article in a local newspaper estimated that 30% of the cost of a new home in this area is directly attributable to gov't regulation. Builders can't get the land, have to fight legal battles with zoning boards, comply with a gamut of local and state regulations, etc. The average time it takes a builder to dig the first foundation after land acquisition is 6 years.

As a small example, I just had to get a friggin building permit to replace a water heater in a rental property my wife and I own. Absurd. Its only $45 but you have to go to the building dept., get the paperwork, draw up the plans, submit the paperwork, wait for the inspector to show up to BS about his home in Fla. This is no joke. I just went through exactly this to install two low voltage lights in the kitchen of our home. This is a small example of the hidden costs of gov't run amuck. NJ is a cesspool of corruption, incompetence, waste, and idiotcy. As soon as my wife decides to retire, we are outta here.

Boy, do I sound like an old coot! Hey, when ya turn gray, you have earned the right to sound off. I'm not going to worry about the housing market, I've got my plate full just trying to get rid of these acrylics!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

I agree. I was in the Dr.'s office today and read an article in a back issue of Money magazine, that described what we're discussing here. Personally, I think we're in for a dip in the economy. I believe all the tell tale signs are there. It was not that long ago that the dot com start ups had problems and rocked even those in the high tech market that were stable, long term stocks... Economically, it makes sense that if interest rates rise, home sales will diminish, given that income levels remain relatively the same. Disposable income doesn't increase unless personal income increases, and actually will decrease as the cost of living increases, given that inflation is higher than cost of living increases. Those who may now qualify for home loans, may not if the interest rates increase. Fewer buyers, means a shift in the market I would think, and sellers may also drop their sales price to remain compeditive and sell thier property for whatever reason. Ok off my soapbox. I love these kinds of fun discussions. :groovy: Fun stuff! :dancing:

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Boy do I like a good argument! Gets the brain working after sweating and getting wet and dirty all day.

Cujo is partially correct. By a wide margin, there are a lot more trees in America today than when Columbus, the Vikings, or space beings "discovered" America. This was true over 30 yrs. ago when I was a forestry major (switched to geology and never used either) and probably more so today.

One primary reason is the midwest. These were natural grasslands with few trees except along watercourses and mostly cottonwoods. With housing and population growth, plantings have added a huge increase in overall tree count.

Another reason is tree farming. Wood is a very large industry in this country and the Georgia Pacific's grow a whole lot of trees for supply.

As far as quality of our forests, old growth is mostly gone. Management has been sporatic. Recent BLM policy of allowing non threatening forest fires to burn out on their own may actually be beneficial in the long run. Overall, for most people, I'm sure the "quality" of our forests is nowhere near 500 yrs. ago. But there is no question that there is a lot more of it. And none of us were around then to make the call.

I have gotten more than a bit of criticism of resurfacing my deck with ipe. "Destroying the rain forest", "Adding to global warming" etc., all the typical, knee jerk, emotional reactions without a clue. As far as I know, nearly all ipe imported into the US today is farm raised. They are able to grow production wood in as little as 15 yrs. from planting.

Our country started its economic greatness on the abundance of natural resources. You want to take that away from 2nd and 3rd world countries, that have a difficult time getting their population out of abject poverty?

I had an interesting conversation with the head sales guy of Thompson's Mahogany Co., the distributor of the ipe I purchased. The co. is about 100 yrs. old, and like many others, clear cut in South and Central America in the past to get at the mahogany. Ipe and other species were left to rot on the ground. About 30 yrs. ago their on site managers noticed that the trees cut down, 50 or more years ago, were not rotting. More amazing, as itenerant farmers followed to try and make a living on bad soil, burned downed trees to clear fields. The ipe would not burn. Check out the fire rating on the wood, its in the same class as concrete.

The issues are not simple. But there is certainly a lot of "save the Planet" uninformed nonsense.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Beth,

Our apparent political differences notwithstanding, and the koom-by-ah movie as a seperate issue, I did some fast research and must beg your forgiveness.. Apparently the US had some poor statistical gathering capabilities "back in the day" so all we really have prior to the 1950's are best guesses and estimates..

My statement referring to the superiority of our current forestry vs. capabilities prior to colonization may have been a bit simplistic and broad. From the 1900's to the 1950's best guesses were certainly more accurate but the hard core stuff seems to be post 1952 or thereabouts..

Here is the best I could find for you with my brief search on my painfully slow dialup connection.. plus a data source. I hope these suffice..

"Since 1900, forest area in the U.S. has remained statistically within 745 million acres +/-5% with the lowest point in 1920 of 735 million acres. U.S. forest area in 2000 was about 749 million acres."

Source:USDA Forest Service Trend Data Report 1760-2000

I'll further add that tree population seems to be rather robust with the top 10 species over 1" dbh rounding out at just over 112 Trillion trees. This number amounts to 39% of the total tree population of the US so by extrapolation, we can gather that there are just under 300 Trillion trees in the US. This is about 408 trees per forested acre.

Source:USDA FIA Current US Forest Data and Maps 2002

"The total area of U.S. timber land has been stable over the past 50 years, with an overall loss of only 1 percent."

Source: USDA National Report on Sustainable Forests-2003

"Growth has exceeded removals on U.S. timber lands for several decades, while the area of timber land has remained relatively stable. The result has been a substantial increase in the volume of growing stock on U.S. timber lands. In the 1990s, growth continued to exceed removals for both publicly and privately owned timber lands in the East (North and South regions) and West (Rocky Mountain, Pacific Coast, and Alaska regions). Trends in growth on timber land since 1952 are attributable to several factors. In general, positive growth trends reflect regrowth and maturation of forests on lands that had been harvested before 1952. Growth trends also reflect investments in fire protection, land owner education, and silviculture. Changes in harvest patterns in the 1990s resulted in shifts in growth and removals by ownership and region. Historically, most harvesting occurred on private timber lands in the East. Recent data shows a further shift of removals from public timber land in the West to private timber land in the East. Thus, growth has been exceeding removals by a wider margin in the West, while the gap has been decreasing in the East. Currently, total removals are 76 percent of net growth in the East and 45 percent of growth in the West."

Source: USDA National Report on Sustainable Forests-2003

I agree that this particular thread has wandered quite a bit from the original topic, but I'm glad for it too..

Cujo

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Cujo,

I appreciate the source references. I actually like reading things like that. Do you have anything that talks about cedar, specifically the effects of cutting the trees younger, as it pertains to the effects on their natural ability to repel certain insects? I had heard, that the newer growth was more prone to rot, decay, and infestation than the older growth trees.

The whole dialog about acrylics, well, I can see how cedar for example, might be more prone to rot if an acrylic is applied, if the deck is constructed from newer growth trees (and the WMC is too high when the product is applied for example). Mind you, This is all simply theoretical, I have not got a source, nor do I have my morning coffee yet. :cup:

The movie I referred to - I think everyone should see it once. It makes you stop and think.

Rick, that's why I love ipe. It is so durable it's not even funny, and the wood itself is beautiful. I believe it has become my favorite species for exterior use. :groovy3:

Smells like the coffee is ready. Catch you guys later!

Beth :sunshine:

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Beth,

for good info on cedar, cedar harvest management, and the rest, check out the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association at www.WRCLA.org