1st Annual Acrylic - Stripper Showdown...

[RPetry 564]

For any other perverse idiots out there in woodcare that try to take on these impossible jobs, this may be of interest.

THE CHAMPION - 3, count 'em, 3 layers of Behr's Deck Plus acrylic - latex solid stain on the horizontal and it looks like 2 of the same on the vertical wood.

THE CONTENDERS - from left to right.

#1 - Napier's Removall 310. Got to give it a handicap as the specs clearly state that it should be applied with an airless. Was not going to spend $200 for a 5 gallon container to test. Would not hang on the vertical wood with a brush application.

#2 - That old standby, Back to Nature's BFS II. Its done some terrrific work for many in the past but is near impossible to apply mechanically.

#3 - A product that is being developed that I was asked to test. Consistancy is almost like jello and even after mixing doesn't come out even. Manufacturer claims it will go through a pump up but I don't think so. But hey, ya gotta love that neon blue color.

#4 - Back to Nature's Ready Strip Deck. Even consistancy, will certainly pass through a pump up or Shurflo. A lot less expensive than #1 or #2.

I have preliminary results but only stayed around for an hour. Will go back sometime early tomorrow to see if there is any change.

Please, if anyone out there knows how to remove these foul acrylics from exterior wood without spending a fortune in materials and time, please chime in.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick,

Not debating that. I realize what the subheading was. Just found the article interesting and thought others may as well. I have a habit of watching for indicators.... As for housing in DC, it's far from reasonable. We live here, and I can tell you many people we know feel the same way we do. It's insane...

Beth

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Beth, you are right about the insane prices there, or what in my smallish mind qoes to that defenition..:)

When in town for the Maryland PWNA chapter/charter meeting not long ago, I perused some of the local market. Partly out of a bit of curiosity, but partly just for grins. Anyway, for what it costs to move into your subdivision, I could buy a very, very, nice gentleman's estate in my locale.

[PressurePros 248]

I can vouch for the Philly area.. Insane... Houses on the Main Line 'burbs start at a million and skyrocket from there. In a middle income neighborhood in Delaware County you get a 2500 sf twin house for $175k. You may have a small patch of grass in front and a yard big enough for a small dog to run around in. A nice single home in a decent school district will be about a quarter million.

My school and property taxes last year were $20,000.00 OUCH!

[squirtgun 122]

Beth, you are right about the insane prices there, or what in my smallish mind qoes to that defenition..:)

When in town for the Maryland PWNA chapter/charter meeting not long ago, I perused some of the local market. Partly out of a bit of curiosity, but partly just for grins. Anyway, for what it costs to move into your subdivision, I could buy a very, very, nice gentleman's estate in my locale.

Cujo,

Ain't livin in the south great!!!

[RPetry 564]

Same four strippers used in the test at the start of this thread now on cedar. The deck has 1 coat of Cabot's 1800 series acrylic, no base oil primer. Some areas also have another old acrylic coat that was not removed when the Cabot's was applied.

1st pic is the test area before application of the strippers. Application test patches were on both the horizontal floor and vertical balustrade base edge. Dwell time was ~ 2 hrs., cloudy with temps in the low 60's. One other note, these horizontal floor areas had the old worn 2nd acrylic, whereas the vertical area only had the single coat of Cabot's 1800.

2nd pic, from left to right. Napier's Removall 310, Back to Nature Ready Strip Deck, Back to Nature BFS II, and the neon blue development product. No agitation help or additional product was added. 3rd pic, results. What I found surprising is that all four products seemed to strip, at least to some extent, the vertical balustrade edge where there was only the single Cabot acrylic, but Ready Strip Deck and Neon Blue did not perform well on the horizontal, trying to strip the same Cabot acrylic. That 2nd unknown acrylic underneath must have made a difference.

Clear winners are Removall 310 and BFS II.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Rick,

I cannot speak to the rest of the products you have tried, but I am not surprised to see Removall in the winners circle. We have used it ourselves and although expensive, it does work very well.

Another note you can use..with the Removall you could go with a substaintially longer dwell. We have used a 24-30 hour dwell with exceptional results.

For my part, I thank you for taking the time to do this test and then unselfishly share the results with the rest of the world.

****************************************

Squirt,

:):) Life is good.

Yankee by birth, Texan by the Grace of God, Georgian by Choice..

**************************************************

Pressure,

I don't understand how you folks do it..My property/school taxes last year on home and land were about $1400...For comparison, we live in a very modest 3 bedroom, 30 yr old home, on a 1 acre lot, just outside the city limits.

Cujo

[JFife 14]

Pressurepro,

20K for what?? Property taxes?? Where i live, if you buy a home you can usually count on the taxes being the same as the insurance..... Pressure washing must be working out very well for you, lol. Man, with prices like that on the homes, I truly cannot see how you guys do it.

[RPetry 564]

Cujo,

Thanks. I really think acrylics are going to become a growing problem for those of us that primarily refinish decks. I've been searching for less expensive strippers and have used this board to see if anyone else has a possible solution.

Jon Fife helped in suggesting Removall 310. It works in tests but the specs clearly indicate that it should be applied through an airless to be effective. Got the airless, but am not going to spend $200 for a 5 gal. container to test. The other problem for me is supply. ICI Paints markets a Hydrostrip 503 which according to Napier is a private label of Removall 310. The spec sheets for the 2 products are different but I'll take their word on it. I have to travel ~ 70 mi. to get it (with the traffic in this area of NJ, that can be a 1/2 day adventure) and the one supplier only has 10 gals.

I know Back to Nature BFS II works, I can get as much as I want in my area for a little less than Removall 310. I've used it to get through 3 and in some areas 4 Behr's solids in one application. That was when I was just starting out and didn't know an acrylic from Thompson's. But the few jobs I have used it on were small decks in townhouse communities where the owners were required to conform to standards. In one case I was the first contractor in the prior 3 that could get the solids off. BTN II is literally the consistancy of pudding and you need an airless pushing over 1 GPM. So you wind up laying thick by hand, extremely tedious, time consuming and expensive. At present, I only use my Binks airless a few times a year for the few solid stain jobs I agree to do. I hate solids. I'm not about to spend $3000 for a new airless just to push a stripper until demand justifies the purchase.

The other problem is customers. They just don't want to believe they have a real problem. Yeah, their deck is peeling like dead skin and they want it to "look nice", but its going to cost how much for the stripper and sanding? They wind up hiring some schmuck that recoats the deck in another acrylic.

The cedar deck in my 2nd test above is an example. Nice people and I see cedar which is not all that prevalent around here. I love cedar. But they have no dough. Too much house, kids, insecure employment, whatever. So me, mister nice guy says look, I'll get as much off the floor as possibie using NaOH, very cheap stripper. I'll help you with products and methods to do the rest of the floor yourself. Am explicit in what to expect. Go up on a cold foggy morning and test using F-18 at 24 oz. per gallon. Yeah it works as expected, getting off a lot in partially failed areas. Meanwhile, knock off a lot of the peeled acrylic with just water. Go back a few days later when it is warmer. Do the job with described and expected results.

As a prelude, when I was up the 1st time to do an estimate, I had the Delmhorst with me. Homeowner, peering over my shoulder, sees the readings in some areas of his balustrade off the scale. You can poke your finger into some areas and the cedar feels like a sponge. They know its rotting, even the floor has 2 boards rotted completely through.

Now after two lengthy emails telling them about possible strippers, how to apply, sanding etc I get this. Name deleted to protect the guilty.....

Rick,

Thank you for you kind offer of no charge. Since you did come out, spent money on supplies and put in some hours trying to remove the stain, we would like to split the difference that you quoted us. We will send a check to Windsor Woodcare in the amount of $220.

We did try the BTN ready strip product this weekend (1quart). It seemed to remove the stain from the verticals. We also applied it to the floor but it was a little harder to remove. We will need to use a pressure washer to really get if off. What would you recommend to buy for a pressure washer that we not be too powerful for the cedar deck? What is the appropriate PSI and GPM? Also, is one brand better than another?

Thanks.

xxx

Mr. xxx,

If you need a pressure washer to get the acrylic off, it has not been fully stripped.

I don't want your money, its no kind offer. I don't dicker with anyone. Any check will be returned. Look, you contracted for a service at an agreed price and you were not satisfied. End of story, I'll eat the time, travel, materials, aggravation and effort. A couple of hundred bucks makes no difference to me. Satisfied customers are my business.

You have terrific wood under your feet and don't even know it. Call a few reputable contractors in the area to see what a tear down and replacement for cedar or even pressure treated lumber would cost. Keep hiring idiots who don't have a clue about exterior wood. Yeah, they may be cheap in the short run, but you will pay a price and its now. Your cedar has not been properly maintained in years and you think a quick patch job is going to fix all ills?

Sorry for the rant xxx, but I'm tired. I'm tired of trying to help and educate. I'm tired of trying to tackle these jobs without a clue from the homeowner. I'm tired spending a good part of 3 days desperately looking for a reasonable solution. Truly, your deck balustrade and possibly some cedar deck boards are rotting right now. Keep going cheap, buy inferior products and services. The piper does get paid in the end.

I've tried to help as much as I can. Both you and Mrs. xxx are very nice people and I wish you all the best.

Mind you, this is for ~ 775 sq. ft. of horizontal cedar. This is my 4th season in this business and I have never had any customer even question my bill, let alone not pay it. I'll drive 160 miles round trip to get a Ready Seal color that I don't have in stock, just to keep a customer satisfied.

So, I'm at a stand off. Do I try and help save some wood or take the easy way out. Tackle the problem or avoid it. If I spent half the time on marketing as I have on these foul acrylics, I'd be hiring right now.

Too subborn for my own good. I'll try and keep at it for as long as I can. The problem is only going to get worse.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Kinda speechless in reply to the e-mail thing.... All I can say is that I hope it works out for you.

I can empathize with your postion though. We deal day in and day out with homeowners who have been contacted by guys who want to splash some bleach on a previously finished deck, hit it with a few thousad psi, and then drool some Thompson's all over it. They then call this a profesisonal deck job for what seems like ten cents a square foot..house wash free if you do the deck for a hundred bucks :rolleyes:

We sometimes get the deer in the headlights look after spending all that time educating, but they still go with the low bid splash & dash guy.. Makes me want to drive off a bridge some days..

Then you get the decks like these where the client really appreciates quality craftsmanship and qualified wood restoration expertise.

http://pamspressureclean.com/html/full_deck_restoration_0.html

(use the arrow buttons to scroll through the pics)

Somehow the few outweigh the many and makes it all worth going back at it tomorrow..

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Here's a classic...

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Sometime, you just have to bump an old thread......

 

Beth