1st Annual Acrylic - Stripper Showdown...

[RPetry 564]

For any other perverse idiots out there in woodcare that try to take on these impossible jobs, this may be of interest.

THE CHAMPION - 3, count 'em, 3 layers of Behr's Deck Plus acrylic - latex solid stain on the horizontal and it looks like 2 of the same on the vertical wood.

THE CONTENDERS - from left to right.

#1 - Napier's Removall 310. Got to give it a handicap as the specs clearly state that it should be applied with an airless. Was not going to spend $200 for a 5 gallon container to test. Would not hang on the vertical wood with a brush application.

#2 - That old standby, Back to Nature's BFS II. Its done some terrrific work for many in the past but is near impossible to apply mechanically.

#3 - A product that is being developed that I was asked to test. Consistancy is almost like jello and even after mixing doesn't come out even. Manufacturer claims it will go through a pump up but I don't think so. But hey, ya gotta love that neon blue color.

#4 - Back to Nature's Ready Strip Deck. Even consistancy, will certainly pass through a pump up or Shurflo. A lot less expensive than #1 or #2.

I have preliminary results but only stayed around for an hour. Will go back sometime early tomorrow to see if there is any change.

Please, if anyone out there knows how to remove these foul acrylics from exterior wood without spending a fortune in materials and time, please chime in.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

http://nc-es.fws.gov/coastal/plnwrawc/atlanticwhitecedarresearch.html

http://www.chesco.com/~treeman/hardtoget/jk-64-html/chapter_5.html

These are just plain interesting...

Beth

[JFife 14]

Why is it "tired" to not want to destroy more trees when there are other solutions?? And we can personally thank you're home state for the abundance of crap SYP that rots out within about ten years unless it is totally sealed off from any type of weather changes. Every log builder/manufacturer in the SE builds with this stuff because it is cheap, when for a few extra dollars they could get standing dead from out west. And this lovely young-growth SYP is to thank for my deck in it's warpedness, cracks, boards literally splitting in half shape that it is in. And don't tell me it needs the natural oils replinished with Readyseal.

Point is, why be wasteful with a resource when we have other options?? I'm not a radical--I know vegans who are planning to build their homes out of used tires to prevent an environmental impact of any kind. I consider that extreme, but at least they are conscious of trying to improve the environment we live in. Just not a fan of wasteful actions, when there are options.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

What else can you add about new growth trees? Personally, I have been skeptical of new growth for years.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Beth,

.....can't add much, only second-hand info and speculation, as I am not a Forestry/Agri expert. I do know that I have to explain to people daily why it is necessary to seal/stain/maintain their log home, and often get the argument that, "the log house down the road is 200 yrs. old and has never had anything done to it, and you are telling my that my five yr. old house will be rotting in five more years if I don't pay you to maintain it"?? SO TIRED of answering that, and of the people not believing me and thinking it is a sales pitch.

I speak only from experience and not scientific data, but new wood is bad, especially the SYP. I don't know if it is the inability to repel insects, or the porousness of the wood that allows it to absorb water like a straw (as opposed to dense-grained old-growth wood), but it rots badly. Now, a smart designer/builder can overcome these characteristics by designing the house so that it is better protected from the weather, but......that usually costs more money, and when a kit manufacturer is trying to convince a mark that they can build their log house for close to what a stick house costs, they don't/won't allow for extra $. ......So, the house gets designed like a stick house with 12" overhangs, maybe pass on the gutters, log ends sticking out, and before long the wood rots. And of course, the salesman told them that a log house doesn't require much maintenance, not a big worry (anything to close the deal) and you have a clueless homeowner asking me the tough questions, and I try and re-wire their thinking with the truth, and they feel screwed by everyone.

But, the crappy logs do leave open a good market for rot repairs. Another thing----it can often (in the case of a deck) come down to a deck-to-deck issue, and even a board-to-board issue. Ever notice two decks side by side, same age, never treated, same exposure, and one has cracking, warping boards and the other is pretty solid and straight?? Or even that some boards on a deck may be perfect, while others are aweful?? I assume that comes down to where they where cut off of the tree, and how close they are to heartwood.

Beth, if you want more info on the new-growth wood, the log sites are loaded with it. It is a huge issue, because of the trouble everyone has with SYP. It doesn't help when the logs are stacked at about 40% moisture, I literally have had logs 4' long, 8" diameter that I can barely lift they are so wet. But hey, in the SE it is all about doing it as cheap as possible, and these companies spit out thousands of these homes a year. Again, has it's bad points, but can be good for biz too.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Post deleted

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

All,

The thread has been edited. Opinions are respected, discussion is welcome, however we can do this without slighting anyone. Thank you.

Beth

[JFife 14]

c'mon Beth, you deleted a post I did not see, and was most likely posed to me. You should know, I, of all people, like open posting. Now, I have the feeling something just awful was said towards me, and it probably was not the case at all, just some harmless bantering from Ms. Pam. I say deletion should be saved for death threats or verbal abuse or obnoxious salesmen......not guys that like to aggravate one another. .......For me, it is just looking for ANY discussion more exciting than the 75th newbie of the year asking how much to charge for a deck or complaining because they don't close 100% of their estimates. But hey, your rules and I'll follow, I'm back to being the choir boy!!

[seymore 90]

For me, it is just looking for ANY discussion more exciting than the 75th newbie of the year asking how much to charge for a deck or complaining because they don't close 100% of their estimates.

That's too funny Jon!! :rotfl:

This thread has been good reading :cool:

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Jon,

I deleted my own post..

After Referee Beth cut out your comments to my wife, my smart ass reply, while still keeping it's punch, seemed to have lost its direction. I didn't want anymore confusion.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jon,

I didn't "delete" anyone's post, as a matter of fact I gave you ample time to edit your own wise crack. When you didn't but did respond to the question I posed in the same reply as my not so subtle request to edit your post, then hey - I did the right thing which was to clean up the bbs and keep it on a professional tone. Likewise I gave Cujo the chance to remove his wisecrack back, which he did.

I'll reiterate - this thread has alot of really cool info in it and it makes you stop and think about many things, as well as how they effect one another. Personally, I would like to see that course of conversation continue. However please understand that from time to time when things get heated, I may and will smooth them out a bit if you guys start making comments that could hurt one another or this BBS.

Now let's keep this fun dialog going.

I looked for research on newer growth and the effects of milling trees when they are younger, but am having a hard time locating any. Does anyone have a link? I would really like to see a study, and there has to be one somewhere.....

Beth :cup: (got my coffee) :groovy3:

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Beth,

I have not found anything yet either.. I'd be interested in the findings, not necessarily on cedar but on all popular species with special emphasis perhaps on the SYP that we all use so much.

It makes sense that the fast track growth would have substantial difference in composition than the slower more dense growth, but outside of anecdotal evidence I have yet to see anything substaintial to back the claim.

As far as fast twisting boards, wet boards, splitting boards, etc, I bet that has more to do with the actual ACQ process, board selection at purchase time, poor installation issues, poor engineering issues, and the like.

For example, it has suddenly become quite popular to use 5/4 deck flooring boards as cap rails here.. Why? who the hell knows.. probably becasue they are substantially less expensive that a 2x6 .. but the end result is that in fairly short order the "deck guy" lays out some 16 footers across the top of the handrail and in about 10 seconds thay are warped and twisted beyond all possible use except for.....oh..gee..ummm....fire kindling!

Is this the fault of the wood.? Hardly.. Some knucklehead used a piece of structure that was and is CLEARLY unsuited for the task, but the wood gets blamed anyway..:rolleyes:

As far as wet wood goes..yupper..it happens.. We see it here as well.. you go through the stack and it isn't hard to tell the pieces that seem to have an extra dose of ACQ and the ones that don't.. I'm not sure that I would elevate it to any particualr conspiracy level though.. some wood absorbs more than others.. just like in stain application.. wood is wood..each piece behaves differently..some as you well know, behave differently within the same piece.... It's wood!..not plastic..

It is not unknown that the newer SYP trees are engineered to grow very fast, very tall, and very straight. They are indeed a special breed.

We live dead middle in the heart of tree growing country here and I know personally some large and some small scale tree farmers. The tax incentives are quite nice, the payout from the harvest is fairly substantial, and oftentimes there is really nothing else that like to grow on that particular lot of land except SYP trees. Add to that the other activities that go on, like hunting leases, that occur on tree farming land and one can see fairly quickly that it is a multifaceted financial proposition.

To be sure, I'm a hardwood kind of guy, and there's not much in nature that gives me a warm fuzzy like a full stand of mature hardwood trees. I'm not much into the clearcut and replant pine forests, but hey, it's a valuable renweable resource, we need it, and they are growing it.. If I had the cash, I'd likely buy a few hundred acres and do likewise. The options are indeed somewhat limited unless there is a massive and expansive social shift in the USA which I think you and I could agree does not stand much chance of happening.

Cujo

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Well, what we have seen is most evident in the SYP and also in cedar. I do agree the chem process may be part of the issue where SYP is concerned but where cedar is concerned...I have to wonder if the age of the tree is an issue. Personally, I think it is.

I know what you mean about the boards and how they behave differently. We have seen this as well. My understanding of it, is that it depends on what the tree is doing when it is cut. Think of it as channels which can be inbound or outbound. You can't tell when you lay a board by visual inspection if it will draw in a liquid such as an oil, or if it will push it out. While a ceratin amount of retention is normal, I can recall working on a floor, and having one board appear very thirsty and accepting quite a bit of sealer, while th eone next to it, literally pushed out the excess and needed to be evened out so it didn't puddle. It was really cool to see it. I would encourage you guys who have not seen it to take the time to look as you seal the wood, to see if you can spot it. It's like the board bleeds the oil back out.

Do you get more ACQ in your area? Around here, there is more CA (copper azole), and you typically only see ACQ in lattice.

In any case, if it were true that newer grow this weaker, it may in turn make it more susceptible to rot and decay. One thing we have seen here, is in a community that is very affluent, but was built very fast. (can you hear it coming?) The rails were PAINTED white on the elevated decks. The wood used was supposed to be PT, but upon inspection we don't believe it was. The WMC was not where it needed to be (our assessment) and the paint held the moisture in... allowing the wood to rot. It would stand to reason that any product that forms a barrier, especially on all sides of the board, would be a primary target for rot or decay if the WMC is not correct when the product (barrier, film - call it what you like) is applied. A moisture meter can be a handy tool.

We also prefer wood scews to nails, but that's a whole other topic....

Beth :groovy2:

[JFife 14]

....thanks for clearing up the 'edit' issue, though I am not sure what happened it appears all is well and good in the world of wood. Sorry I didn't take your cue to delete my post Beth, didn't know you were implying that.......I'll take responsibility for my off-color sense of humor, as I am used to being the only person that thinks I am funny:)

Regarding the cheap 5/4 boards, I don't see the 2x6 as much better, the problem I see with them is that they "chunk" out pieces of wood in the floor, kinda following the grain lines. Do make for a more solid and better looking deck, and that is what I use on the decks I build/re-build.

SYP, the funny thing is that it is extremely strong, far stronger that any other cedars or spruce or most other pines, and has a good R-value as far as wood goes, but just has the tendacy to twist and warp badly, and has the strange rot problems. I was just harrassing the folks in GA about their responsibility for the poor wood.....I just got done being the expert witness (please no snickers or laughs) in a court case in KC where a log home had been sold in '02, and now had about 300' feet of log rot, and the new homeowner wanted the prior homeowner to be held responsible, and I worked on behalf of the prior homeowner. The home was only about 12 yrs old and was made of standing dead from Montana. The homeowner had done all of the mainenance at the intervals the manu. stated, using Sikkens Cetol as the finish. He repaired significant damage during his tenure at the home, sold it, and the house continued to have rot problems. Well, the plaintiff had the President of a home inspection company come out and give his opinion on the house, and he found that the defendant was guilty of not doing necessary maintenance, thus causing the logs to crack and check (as though that is not normal) and causing the log rot. Needless to say, he was in the fetal position sucking his thumb when I finished my report.

Fact is, these things would not be issues if the manufacturers would just be up-front and let people know that their house will need significant maintenance, and they should plan on the house costing about 30% more, minimum, than a stick house so that the home can be built in a way to avoid these problems. Think that'll happen?? Probably about the same time I learn to be funny:)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there is no such thing as maintenance free anything for exterior, or interior use. Everything gets dirty, or eventailly needs repair or replacement. As Rod would say, mother nature is at work 24/7.

All wood will do the following to some degree over time....

Shrink

Warp

Split

Crack

Check

Cup

Splinter

It's the nature of wood. You cut the tree down, you remove the bark, which is the protection for the wood itself. Even wood in the interior of a home expands and contracts. Ever have a door that was sticky some months and easy to open an close others? I rest my case....

We had a log home builder that wanted us to testify on their behalf, the owner was suing them. After looking at the material, we declined. The builder was just plain wrong.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Jon, Beth, Cujo, and interested others...

There is a book available, "Understanding Wood - A Craftsman's Guide to Wood Technology" by R. Bruce Hoadley. From what I understand, it is the "bible" for serious woodworkers, and is oriented toward that craft. Its gets pretty technical at times with equations etc. but has very good illustrations and pictures and most information is understandable to the uninitiated.

It contains an amazing amount of information on wood. More than a third of the book is Part 1, "The Nature of Wood and its Properties". Chapters within this section include Wood ID, Strength of Wood, and Water and Wood"

Part 2 is "Basics of Wood Technology". Chapters include Coping with Dimensional Change in Wood, Drying Wood, and "Finishing and Protecting Wood".

Part 3 is "The Woodworker's Raw Materials". Chapters include Lumber, Engineered Wood, and Finding Wood".

One is not going to find many direct answers to questions posed on this thread, for example the SYP issue but just perusing through quickly turned up a few nuggets of info. Under the chapter "Drying Wood", there is a subsection "The Dry Kiln". One small snippet, quoted "However, the successfful drying of a charge of several thousand board feet of lumber is the craft of the kiln operator - as much art as science - and is usually gained only through years of experience". Wonder how many commercial kilns are run by craftsmen any longer and if their employers allow the time to fully cure green wood.

Pg. 113 has a half page graph illustrating the equilibrium moisture content % of common woods plotted against Relative Humidity. Another possible clue. How is the wood stored and protected from high humidity?

Picture on Pg. 98 caption starts with "In softwoods, the slower the growth, the stronger the wood." It might be safe to assume that large producers are using genetic strains to lessen the time of seedling planting to harvest growth.

A lot of info, but may be interesting to some.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Very cool stuff. We have a few books on wood, might have to add the above! Thanks!!!

:dancing:

Beth

[JFife 14]

The Bible author for most log books is B.Allan McKie, written several books and is the Godfather of modern scribe log work. He has many books addressing such, but also books with load equations, stress info, etc. You could peruse at: www.loghelp.com.

[RPetry 564]

Jon,

Truly wish I could use that information. In central NJ, its probably against code to build a log home. Honestly, I have never seen one in my area. Further south, where it is more rural, I have seen a few. But a rare treat.

Bet 9 of 10 people here never heard of Daniel Boone, and probably 7 of 10 could not locate Tenn. on a map. Lincoln Logs were my favorite toy as a kid and always had a dream of building a log home. Not here..

BTW, when I mentioned "bible" of woodworkers, I meant those who build furniture, sculpt in wood, etc. Still, a book loaded with info that may be helpful and of interest.

[James 624]

Wood care sucks , all film forming products suck , stripping sucks , thunder storms every day for the last five days on all my decks suck , and 90 degree heat sucks--- I wish I followed this thread but it sucks- Go composite it sucks too !!!

I love when you don't follow the internet and you log on and there's 400 messages that sucks--------

[PressurePros 248]

LOL .. it could be worse. Tommorrow I am going to the courthouse to file a lien against a deadbeat b---- that won't pay the remainder of her balance due. I am out $1500

[RPetry 564]

Jim,

I've got a gazebo cedar shake roof off a lg. deck that hasn't been cleaned in 15 years. Mold and mildew is caked and as hard as coral. Got to be done tomorrow and its going to be in the 90's and again very humid.

I agree, it sucks. There are certainly easier ways to make a few bucks.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

:sunshine: Let's all give Jim a big group HUG!!!!!!! :dancing: ( trying hard to make you crack a smile here)

Hope things get better for you Jim!

Beth:cup: :groovy3:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I think this was the thread that had some Economics 101 woven into it farther back....

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/forbes/P120229.asp?GT1=6657

Forbes reported this on MSN today. Interesting reading. What does this mean for all of us?

Beth

[JFife 14]

It doesn't even get hot in Connecticut:)

[RPetry 564]

Beth,

Again, micro not macro. Sub-heading in the article is "A boom -- But only in pockets". Housing is affordable in Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Washington, Detroit. What surprised me is that housing costs (adjusted) have stayed stable in San Francisco over the past 24 yrs.

If you are in one of the "heated" suburban markets and are planning on retiring, maybe its time to sell and move. But jobs, family, friends, "roots" are also important. Its your home. Unless leveraged to the hilt, relax. Its kind of like the stock market. If your trying to make a quick score, you're on a Level II screen all day, scalping for a dime a share and getting ulcers. If you have money socked away in the market with a time frame of over 10 - 12 yrs., daily, monthly, and quarterly results are not so important.

The NY Times yesterday had an interesting article "Real Estate, The Global Obsession". In a chart under Long-Term Growth, "Average change in home prices in industrial nations per year, 1971-2003, adjusted for inflation".

The US was +1.3 Not a great rate of return. Some others...Britain +3.6, Spain +3.6, Ireland +3.4, Netherlands +2.9, Austrailia +2.7. Others with greater growth rates than the US are France, Canada, and Denmark. Only Sweden, Japan, New Zealand, and Germany are lower.

But again this is macro. Real estate, residential or otherwise, is a micro market.