Cabot's SPF

[PatrickM 14]

Just got back from a seminar given by a Cabot's rep on their products. He made a strong case for their SPF acrylic and claims it to be a better product for decks than Cabot's Australian Timber Oil (which I know is a favorite of many of you). Wet application, wash and stain in the same day, lasts longer, easier to maintain...

It all sounds great but I know many of you don't like acrylics. So what didn't he tell us and does anyone have evperience with this product.

Patrick

[Kevin H. 14]

Hello all,

I managed to misplace my first response, so let me fill in some holes and then you can feel free to say as you wish about me.

For 12 years we had a wood restoration company. We have cleaned and sealed most wood structures. I have done projects in FL, GA, SC, NC, AL, TN, VA, IL, OH, WI and MI. During those 12 years I used nothing but acrylics. I would cring at the notion of cleaning a project and hoping that mother nature was on my side so that I could go back in a few days and finish. To me it was clean, seal and collect in the same day(depending on size of project).

Over the pastg four years I have only done approx. six to ten projects a year. I now concentrate on selling products for Samuel Cabot, Inc.

To say that SPF is for everybody and every project would be a huge overstatement. But the product is a nice one.

I do not mean to outstep my bounds, but if I can be of any assistance, I would sure like to help. It was nice to hear that Brent had good feedbck.

Thanks,

Kevin

[PressurePros 249]

What company (ies) did you work for, Kevin? How come you gave it up?

[Kevin H. 14]

Our wood restoration company was Wood Again, Inc.. I got out of it because I was selling product as well as applying it and as selling grew, my time for contractor work had to decline. There have been many a time though, that I have thought about getting back into it. But as I have heard and read, it seems like things are still the same, people want you to do miracles, they want it done yesterday and they want it for nothing. That I don't miss.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin,

Please go to your User CP (button is located upper left) and add your signature. Thank you.

Beth

[bforbis 14]

Ken wrote:Okay, here is the only issue I have... if it does fail or if and when the time does come to have to strip it, what does one do then? A medium sized deck with multilayered acrylic can tie you up for two full days just stripping it

.

Ken, IMHO, I think we need to determine why the coating failed for one.

I have been putting together a list of questions that would apply that can help lead to a possible reasons. One major pitfall to any porject is not to address and understand the root cause. If the root cause can be identified, potential solutions can be formed, trialed and confirmed or not.

This is where all the experience on this forum can provide invaluable feedback to help this industry move forward. If we approach problem/solution scenerios in a methodical way, we get solid reputable answers to act upon.

If you really would like to see PW as an industry step up a notch in the respect arena within the industry, from the homeowner perspective etc, using a uniform method of problem analysis to not only help PW's as "installers" but also the coatings industry--whoever the manufacturer!

Just think of the number of professional PW's installing coatings around the country and how the feedback on performance of that coating would be valuable if collected presented in the proper format!

[RPetry 564]

Brent,

I have to hang my hat in Ken's camp on this one. Failure analysis is great for the manufacturers so that they may formulate better products, surface prep methods etc., but there are many of us wood guys that refuse to use any acrylic finish on horizontal exterior wood.

The primary problem for us in the field is we can't strip it in a cost effective manner. Until Cabot's, Flood, Behr's and other coating manufacturers that market acrylics come up with products that allow for maintenance of these finishes, I for one think it is irresponsible to put them on the market and for my company to even consider using them.

[PressurePros 249]

Brent, I do see and agree with your point about determining cause but I guess what I was really getting at in that statement was more or less what Rick reiterated.. eventually you will have to strip this product even if it doesn't fail prematurely). Then again before I go on, I ask Kevin to step in... can you just keep layering on coat after coat of acrylic year after year without ever stripping it? Do you need to wet the acylic when you put a maintenance coat on? I have done a few of these strip jobs and homeowners aren't thrilled to find out it will cost them $3000 because they listened to hype and rhetoric.

[bforbis 14]

Hey Ken and Rick,

This is extactly the type of discussion I have been wanting around pro/cons for acrylic vs oils. I have been working on decks for about 2.5 years in the PW industry, so I do not have the experience you guys have and want to learn more from it.

All I have seen in this area have been acrylics, I assumed it was the norm for whatever reason. Not too long ago I found this forum and began to research and try oils and why people use them, longevity, performance, type of oil base and why and why nots for each.

I like the oils that I have tried and I need to understand more about maintenance. I have read through many posts, manufacturer claims etc and understand that as a general rule of thumb that you wash and appply light coat every year as part ofthe maintenance.

This is great from a marketing stand point and keeps you in front of your customers. I also understand or have had feedback from some that maybe feel they are not getting $$ worth if I have to return each year. But I think I need more on how to address that with more education of the coatings.

I sincerely know what a PITA it is to remove acrylic, it is all I have done from day one. I posted some pics of an upcoming porject that is yet again acrylic. I know they are going to hate the price, but it also has a lot of lattace work.

Thank you for your patience in previous part of the post and additional information.

Brent

[James 625]

Brent if you want to talk about products and maintenance give me a call or e-mail me and I'll call you. I developed maintentance plans 10 years ago. Never have to strip or remove the finish!!

Don't use Acrylic on lattice!! To many area's for moisture to promote failure!

[Able Hands 14]

If I remember the pitch correctly, the only time SPF needs to be applied wet is for the initial coat. Subsequent layers MUST be added dry. Furthermore, again if I remember correctly, Kevin stated his maintenance plan was to wash his two year old coating and apply a maintenance coat.

Let's see what Kevin has to say.

Matt

[Kevin H. 14]

Guys,

Love the discussion and great questions. Hopefully I can hit on most of your points.

First off Brent I like your thought process. Let's talk through some of these issuse before we hang the guy.

Rick - As far as acrylic strippers there are a few good ones out there. Not to honk the Cabot horn, but Cabot does have an acrylic stripper that works great on acrylics. Yes it does cost about $30-$35 per gallon. But put in on give it 10-20 minutes and you will be able to rub your finger nail accross it and be down to bare wood. As I mentioned there are other manufacures that have acrylic strippers that do a decent job. I have also played around with some of the new soy based strippers. They are less expensive, but seem to take more time and product to produce the results I am looking for.

Ken - Great question on maintenance. This was the easy part and nice money part of our jobs. We used to do jobs and offer a maintenance plan for our customers on a two year cycle. At that point it is a quick clean(low psi) address any bare areas and apply a one coat to flat surfaces only. The customer loved it because the cost was less than the initial application and we loved it because it was quick and easy. As I have learned from some of you, I was still leaving money on the table. I could have been providing an annual cleaning for even less and keeping my name in front of the home owner.

Matt - Good listening. Yes the only time the application goes on wet is when you are applying it to bare wood. So durring a maintenance, if I was applying product to say the edge of steps that were completely worn off, yes I would touch up those areas while the wood was wet. The rest can go on dry, just like the second coat.

Thanks,

Kevin

[James 625]

Philosophical wood care moment- I use non dying oils and if I do maintenance in the first or second years I can oil in the same day and never have to strip the finish ( I did strip a swedish) !!! No other products or procedures can do this.

[RPetry 564]

Kevin H.,

This subject gets my goat up. Try and not take the following personally, but the gauntlet has been thrown down and I must respond.

An acrylic finish on exposed exterior wood decks is the worst product any homeowner or contractor can apply. Why?

Reason #1: Acrylic is plastic. Maybe this works for wood in the lab or on the moon but it sure doesn't work in the field. My guess is that thermal expansion and contraction, as well as UV exposure, are the primary reasons for finish failure. And an acrylic finish will fail. Unlike penetrating oils that wear and leach from horizontal surfaces in a consistant manner, slowly losing pigment and water repellent properties, an acrylic finish cracks, chips, and peels, resulting in the dreaded "dead skin" appearance.

Now the failing finish must be repaired or replaced. Sure you can blast the flaking off or start spot sanding and apply another acrylic coating to improve appearance, but you will be applying a coating over a failing plastic substrate. Not a good idea for proper application of any exterior wood finish. To do a proper and professional job, the failing finish should be removed to get to bare wood for adhesion and longetivity. This leads to the next rant...

Reason #2: There is no cost effective way to strip acrylics. Sure there are specialty strippers on the market at $30-$40 per galllon that work and I've used them with good results. But lets ignore the high material costs for now.

The labor and equipment costs to apply the few effective acrylic strippers available is extremly high. Both Back to Nature's BFS II and Napier's Removall 310 will strip acrylics. But both strippers are of thick consistancy, almost like a gel. They must be applied in a thick layer, at least as thick as the coating to be removed and in practice, thicker. Price out a 1 GPM commercial airless to apply these strippers any you may decide to lay in on by hand. Good luck. The time this takes is astronomical.

Kevin, maybe Cabot's has developed a magic acrylic stripper that is easy, effective, and economical to apply, but in all honesty I doubt it. There is no greater rip off in this industry than false claims and inferior products from stripper manufacturers. Please let us know of the stripper you mentioned. I will be the first to sing praises for a great product but due to experience, I expect disappointment.

Bottom line is that acrylic finishes for exposed decks is extremely expensive to maintain. Do a search on this site for other opinions and experiences with acrylic stains. I believe you will find that the majority of contractors that specialize in exterior wood restoration agree.

I think that Cabot's makes some good products. I use their Austrailian Timber Oil on hardwoods and oil based solid stains for the few customers that want an opaque finish. But I believe it is bad business and a costly disservice to my customers to apply any acrylic to exposed exterior wood.

[RPetry 564]

Hi Brent,

You asked Ken and I to comment on acrylic and oil finishes for exterior wood. My previous post should explain my position on acrylics, and I had to bite my tongue and tone it down ! Hopefully Ken, Russ, Jim, Beth, Seymore, Everett, and others will post as there are many others on this site with more experience and knowledge. Some of the following is speculative, as I have no claim on more than a cursory education in wood chemistry.

Most of my experience has been with Ready Seal, so most of my comments will be based on using Ready Seal.

Oils, in particular the paraffinic oils, have the property of diving through the surface of correctly prepared wood. This property infuses the aged and weathered wood with a replacement of lost natural oils and resins. Stains in this paraffinic catagory include Ready Seal, Wood Tux Wet, I think TWP, Baker's Gray Away, and others. These products differ in pigments and other properties but the "replenishment" idea is the same. Other oils, such as linseed, are employed in consumer grade products.

Aside from the type, quality and refinement of the oil, pigment is important. Pigments are usually clay or the more expensive iron oxides. Pigment gives color to the stain and acts as a UV barrier, reflecting the suns' rays and fighting premature greying of the wood.

Application could not be easier and fast. I use a Pump Tech electric sprayer, but Surflo's, pump ups, and even brushing is quicker than solid oil or water based stains. Clean up is soap and water. As paraffinic oils are non drying oils, brushes can be left for weeks without hardening and gumming up.

The downside of the paraffic oils is two fold. On first application of aged, PT wood, you will use a lot of oil. You want to really saturate the wood. I have found it best to first apply a very heavy amount, wait a half to an hour, and spray second time with a lighter application. Its taken me two years to get the brush out of my hands but unless there are puddles of stain that will not be absorbed, back brushing is not necessary.

The second downside factor is longetivity. There is no question in my mind that acrylics, heavy solid oils, and probably other water based stains last longer. In general my Ready Seal customers are serviced every two years. After initial application, dependent on sun exposure, use, and wood species, it may be best to do a quick clean and stain application at the 1st yr. point. This is especially true of cedar due to the density of the wood.

But the upside of the product far outweighs the two year mainenance cycle for my customers. At least with Ready Seal, it is my experience in a limited time frame that no stripping is required. "Diamond" Jim of Ct. has more info on this. He may very well have decks serviced 4 or 5 times without stripping. The finish gets richer and more attractive after each application. As the wood is serviced, less oil is required.

The overwhelming majority of my customers want their wood to look like wood. They like the grain and character of wood. Premium paraffinic oil stains are the best product I know to achieve this appearance as well as protecting from the elements and costly replacement.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick nailed it on the acrylics. Beautifully written, and I agree.

Wood Tux is not paraffinic though...that's my only correction. Russ Cissell should chime in there.

Beth

[Russell Cissell 65]

In my experience all products have their strengths and weaknesses. Some contractors will choose to learn how to use several different products. Other contractors will choose to work with one or two products and then limit their work to jobs that are appropriate for the products they use.

You will hear arguments from all points on the spectrum. Often the arguments are legitimate because no similar product can honestly solve all of the problems. Even within each class of products there is a range in quality and performance so I try to avoid generalizations.

I've learned one lesson in music that applies to so many things in life, including wood finishing. In the hands of an amateur, even the finest instrument will make little more than noise, however in the hands of a master even a toy can produce a masterpiece.

Best of Luck!

Russell Cissell

imrcc1@aol.com

636-288-8512

[bforbis 14]

Hey Rick,

That was an awesome run through of info and I sincerely appreicate it. It was somethings I was definitely looking for.

I have to admitt that I have tried many products for stripping acrylics, since it most of what I have done and most are barely acceptable, depending on your expectations. Have not tried the Cabot's stripper, but even the store rep. said that it was not as good as others on market and available at any price.

I have faired well with a pricey Wolman's at one time ($18/gal), then with other's that are used frequently by those on this forum and are pleased with them.

James,

Thanks for the offer and I will try to get in touch soon.

Thanks for detailed infomation on subject an dlook forward to more!!

Sincerely

[PressurePros 249]

Go Rick ! :cheers: Great post.

[RPetry 564]

Hey Brent,

I'm glad the information is useful. I would not want to trade markets. If most of my customers had an acrylic on their wood I would be looking at another line of business.

Many of us have tried various strippers and methods to remove acrylics. Sanding is guaranteed to work but very labor intensive. I've had some success with the extremely strong, "hot mix" sodium hydroxide stripper and covering in plastic method on some acrylic finishes, but not others.

BFS II and Removall 310 are the two products I have found that are consistantly effective. But you still need to do a second spot strip and some sanding to get the wood in shape for a semi-trans. oil stain.

As far as I know, there are no reasonable ways to get rid of the stuff. In older threads on this board, other contractors have stated that replacing the acrylic encrusted wood is their most cost effective solution.

One possible solution for your customers may be to remove as much of the old failed acrylic stain as possible without spending a fortune in materials and time. Cabot's offers a very good oil based solid stain, the 1600 series, that is opaque and can be tinted to any color.

The 1600 series is a very good solid stain and as it is oil based, at least its maintainable. Due to its high solids content, it will cover and hide the remaining acrylic. My only fear is that the old acrylic substrate will eventually fail. Another consideration is possible bonding problems with the 1600 on an acrylic base. Cabot's technical dept. should be consulted before actually subjecting a customer to this possible solution.

[seymore 90]

Go Rick ! :cheers: Great post.

SO Rick... i take it you don't like acrylics huh? ;)

I second that GREAT post! :cool:

The only SPF i use is SPF 5 Banna Boat tanning oil...:D

[Deck Guy 14]

I did a sample board with the SPF products last year, and they look good, but the acrylic thing is the trouble. Thankfully, the local Cabots supplier here never ordered any in, or I might have been tempted to try a deck with it. Dodged a bullet there!

[RPetry 564]

Hey Shane!,

How's things going in the Lone Star state? Speaking of Lone Star and seeing Ken's animated graphic, I'll admit to downing a high count of Heineken's trying to get rid of these foul acrylics!

What really gets me riled is Cabot's pushing this stuff on unsuspecting homeowners and new contractors. Come on, Cabot's is a major player with a huge marketing budget. They manufacture some very good, high quality stains. They ain't Behrs.

Acrylic coatings may have their place in some applications, but until these manufacturers come up with a reasonable maintenance solution, they should all be tied to the whipping post. In my less than humble opinion, their bottom line based marketing is shameful. No better than Houston's former civic citizen Enron.

Hey, how about this. Lawsuits punished Behr's a few yrs. ago for over a 100 million. Lets find a hard nosed, class action law firm to slowly turn the thumbscrews and shake 'em up!

Yeah, guess I hate acrylics!

[seymore 90]

Hey Shane!,

How's things going in the Lone Star state? Speaking of Lone Star and seeing Ken's animated graphic, I'll admit to downing a high count of Heineken's trying to get rid of these foul acrylics!

What really gets me riled is Cabot's pushing this stuff on unsuspecting homeowners and new contractors. Come on, Cabot's is a major player with a huge marketing budget. They manufacture some very good, high quality stains. They ain't Behrs.

Acrylic coatings may have their place in some applications, but until these manufacturers come up with a reasonable maintenance solution, they should all be tied to the whipping post. In my less than humble opinion, their bottom line based marketing is shameful. No better than Houston's former civic citizen Enron.

Hey, how about this. Lawsuits punished Behr's a few yrs. ago for over a 100 million. Lets find a hard nosed, class action law firm to slowly turn the the thumbscrews and shake 'em up!

Yeah, guess I hate acrylics!

Hay Rick ...Ohh everything is going great here in the Lonestar state it's been a busy start to the Spring.Hell i never really stopped for the winter we didn't have! ..It's getting HOT and Humud already so not much new :D

I hear ya about all the products these companies are trying to make the homeowners the guinny pigs for their not always so user friendly prtoducts.It's a crying shame some of the jobs i've seen that were H.O projects that turned bad!

You are right they are no better than Mr. Ken Lay and his gang..They gonna get what's coming to them in that trial! :cool:

[Kevin H. 14]

Rick,

So I guess you don't like acrylics. Point taken. I am glad that you like the Austrailian oil. I think it's a pretty good one as well.

Cabot does have an acrylic stripper. It is thick like a gel but does a very nice job on removing acrylics.

I wil have to agree that I have seen some nasty acrylic projects in my rounds. It was definatley a learning process for me doing projects in the north compared to the south. My application had to be adjusted almost job by job. And on cedar was a whole different story v.s. the mass amounts of pt. in the south. Acrylic products are not for everyone or every project. I like Russell's music analogy. I can say that I would have a hard time suggesting Austrailin Timber Oil or any oil product for a dock in Florida for the following reasons.

First the UV rays will break down an oil much faster.

Second the humidity will lead to a breading ground for mildew

Third the EPA. They are very strick about what goes into the water and like to pass out big fines.

I think that acrylics and oils each have there place.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

When it comes to acrylics, it's fate is not always in the hands of the installer. Homeowner neglect and misleading expectations of durability/longevity are a major reason why we (the contractors) are confronted with the problematic decks.

Lack of knowledge of the proper conditions necessary for application and success of the finish is often overlooked in relation to the expectations of the product. This is an issue for contractors to be aware of and education along with experience will be the best teacher.

--Acrylics are comprised of thermoplastic resins. They are adversely affected by heat, UV, and prolonged cold such as snow covering and ice.

--Acrylics should not be used in the northern latitudes where cold conditions exist for more than 3-4 months out of each year.

--Acrylics should not be used on decks with little or no clearances underneath for airflow. A deck with less than 2' airflow clearance is prone to retain more soil moisture and that moisture effects the wood surrounding it. By 'Capillary attraction' wood will retain the moisture and have a higher expansion/contraction rate.

--Acrylics should not be used on older decks that exhibit cracks with a width of more than 8-10mils. Using an acrylic on wood in this condition is like putting a splitting wedge into these cracks and letting natural expansion/contraction create larger ones. Plus, there is no definite way to ensure that the wood is completely sealed inside these cracks and therefore may be compromised by moisture being absorbed at these points.

--Acrylics do not have anywhere near the same thermal coefficient as wood and is the primary reason for failure. I.e. Acrylics cannot move with the wood at the same rate.

Overall IMPO, acrylics should not be used on a deck with full exposure to weather and sun. Screen porches, covered porches do well in most circumstances because the shelter limits wet/dry exposure and UV compromisation.

Learning the basics about a component of a sealer helps a would be contractor/installer to determine suitability for the product and help their client get the most for their money and even save them money in the end by recommending the appropriate product that will perform well for their unique situations.

Rod!~