Cabot's SPF continued

[PressurePros 248]

I received this letter from a customer. Before I make any type of assesment or comment I would like to hear your input.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ken,

I thought you would be interested in Cabot's response to the SPF peeling off of my Ipe deck. They said

"The tape pulls revealed a significant amount of wood fiber on the back of the stain samples. Dead wood fibers on the surfaced will interfere with the durability of the SPF Deck and Fence Finish. The stain bonds to the loose wood fibers and as they break free from the surface the stain will lift and peel with it. It is important to remove any raised grain or dead wood fiber prior to coating by lightly sanding with 80-100 grit sandpaper."

I would be interested to know if you find their explanation credible. My deck was power washed using Cabot's recommended deck cleaner prior to staining. In your experience are loose wood fibers an issue with Ipe?

Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is the Cabot's rep still here?

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

Loose wood fibers with ipe? That is a real long stretch of nonsense. Even with NaOH at full solution, I do not think ipe would degrade enough to have loose fibers. Ipe is one of the hardest woods in nature.

Its an acrylic (shame on the writer for putting a solid on ipe). Acrylics are garbage, no worse than garbage because you cannot get rid of them. Cabot's is full of...malarkey. The plastic did not bind to the wood.

Is it possible the writer had another finish on the ipe prior to cleaning and staining? Maybe it was another acrylic, and its acrylic fibers!

I find it extremely hard to imagine any credence to Cabot's claim.

[James 624]

Wood that turns grey or lightens up being in the sun is considered dead wood fiber. Filmers will not adhere.

Thats why all the Stain companies and Cedar Ass. say coat your wood very soon. Because of filming products. Not the case with penitrating oils.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

You're not alone...

Had a similar experience once with the same manufacturer, different product...

We toyed with the idea of putting SPF on but never did for the very reason above - cracking and peeling.

Sealers need to move and breath with the wood. It's just that simple.

Beth

[PressurePros 248]

I also need to add, PressurePros, Inc did not finish this deck the homeowner did. He used the Cabot's SPF cleaner (probably bleach and surfactant) that was recomended to him. I had advised him on proper pressure and washing technique. The deck was one month old at the stage he washed.

Jim, should he have sanded prior to using this crap? I told him it was unnecessary.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ken,

To me the question would be, what does the lable say? If the lable doesn't direct the consumer to sand, and all other directions are followed...you get my point...

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

You may want to notify your customer to the following link:

http://www.cabotstain.com/askexp_htm/showFAQ.cfm?ID=166&cabot=1

The question is about Aussie oil on ipe but Cabot's answer is mostly pushing SPF and their "special" cleaner on "oily" ipe. It does not specify sanding.

[James 624]

Ken give me a call this is a fine line in the industry. Hard woods are tricky with degradation. Cabots sucks from what I here doing anything for those who use their products. cell 203 558 0968 or now 203 754 4284. Till 8 55 . 24 is on after that,

[PressurePros 248]

Jim, just came back to the computer. Relax and watch and 24 in peace. I will give you a call one night this week. Thanks.

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

You may also want to send your customer the tech data sheet on SPF at:

http://www.cabotstain.com/pdf/tds/3600_3700_3800_tds.pdf

Reading through, there is no mention of sanding.

[PressurePros 248]

Thanks for the links, Rick. Here are some photos. Cabot's is now telling him to sand the entire deck to apply ATO. I asked this homeowner every possible question about application, conditions etc and it seems he followed everything Cabot's recommended to a Tee. Nice huh?

[PressurePros 248]

here is a nicer one..

[James 624]

No filming finish can go on Ipe it doesn't work long term. Not even Aussy? I recieved 2 calls today from beleaguered mahog and Ipe people. 4th and 5th application of product...............

I read an article years ago that said no filming product can be used on Ipe. Because of the natural oils will push it off and the wood has to breathe same with teak. Unless multi coats are used like boats. Not practical....

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

In the past, I have found Cabot's "technical" people less than knowlegable about wood or even their own products. That ipe is a mess. What really disgusts me is why anyone would want to hide the natural beauty of ipe with any kind of solid stain.

From what I understand from Everett Abrams, Cabot has changed the formula for Aussie Oil three times in the last three years. Not a good sign.

I've used ATO on my own ipe deck, but it only lasts 10-12 months. No question, it is a film stain. Not bad performance for the wood, but every year it gets stripped off and reapplied with lambswool.

No more. I'm going with a test with RS this year. Probably will need more oil in 3 to 6 months initially, but want to see if the wood will take and hold more oil as time goes on.

Diamond Jim,

Do you mean people that have applied Aussy 4 or 5 times without stripping in between? What are they trying to do, get to thinner air? Putting a new finish over a failing finish is generally a bad idea from what I have managed to learn.

I'm now in a quandry. What to do with existing customers with ipe, mahogany, and baleau (luan)? They now have Aussie oil, which in the past gets stripped and reapplied. Safety says to stay with it until RS or some other penetrating oil proves itself. Any advice?

[PressurePros 248]

I am leaning towards multiple coats of TWP on very dense woods. It has been suggested to me by a couple of people that swear by the technique. I am going to strip my mahogany deck and give it a try. God help me if I have to strip it off.

[Celeste 341]

We put WTW on an ipe deck in March - realizing that some of you can't wait for the results of aging, we will continue to monitor how it works just for posterity's sake :)

Celeste

[PressurePros 248]

If it weren't so completely assinine, this might actually be funny.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. H------;

The Australian Timber Oil is a penetrating stain and in order for the

stain to effectively work, the wood surface must be porous and the wood

fiber must be completely removed. Sanding IPE will not create the

oils to come to the surface. However, I must stress the importance of

totally removing the SPF Deck and Fence Finish should you consider using

a penetrating product. Our best recommendation for your deck is to

consider using the SPF Deck and Fence Finish. Our lab has found this

product to be most effective on IPE, providing protection and lasting

beauty to the natural wood. Cabot Waterproofing is another product that

you can consider using, however, this product will require you to

completely remove the SPF Deck and Fence to ensure the product will

penetrate. We believe that following the necessary preparation steps

outline in the letter of April 3, 2006, will allow you to enjoy your

deck.

Please let me know what product you have decided to use and Cabot will

provide you with 6 gallons of whichever product you choose.

Sincerely yours,

Stacey Sherman

Technical Consultant

(for Cabot's)

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

What trash. Pure nonsense, they truly have no clue as to what they are talking about. 9 out of 10 people at Cabot's probably have no idea what ipe is. Shame on them. Gee, lets see. Acrylic SPF does not work, how about ATO? Get them to come out to the job site and get rid of that foul plastic.

Give Everett Abrams of Deck Restorations Plus a phone call. He is a very nice person and has quite a bit of info on the history and problems with ATO.

First problem for your customer is removing the acrylic. Cabot's fine rep on this web site crowed about their very effective strippers. Try it, and let us know if it actually works. You have to wonder why he never posted or replied again.

Once your customer gets rid of the nasty, Consumers Reports best buy acrylic nightmare, what to do next? I do not know, talk to Diamond Jim.

I hate acrylics. I hate self serving manufactures claims and "politically correct", misinformed information. Let 'em suffer.

[JFife 14]

Has Diamond (or anyone else) ever tried DEK on Ipe?? ....Say you can use it, I tried it, but it didn't seem to "bite" very well. I think Ken Fenner told me he had good luck applying multiple coats of TWP, or someone else did. Seems a Readyseal-type treatment would be the best....anyone ever tried it?

[CLASSICPW 14]

I have a customer right now who has Cabot's on her Ipe and wants a was and recoat. Luckily i couldn't find her address.

[PressurePros 248]

Has Diamond (or anyone else) ever tried DEK on Ipe?? ....Say you can use it, I tried it, but it didn't seem to "bite" very well. I think Ken Fenner told me he had good luck applying multiple coats of TWP, or someone else did. Seems a Readyseal-type treatment would be the best....anyone ever tried it?

I have not done it but have been advised of ipe decks with multiple layers that have three years on them without as much as a maintenance coat and no evidence of finish failure. The person I am speaking of uses the TWP 100 series.

I think WTW would lend itself well to this type of application if it were thinned with a type of spirits. The problem with that is, I am not willing to be the guinea pig for someone's $30k deck.

[Littlefield 65]

Maybe Russell will jump in here with an official answer to the thinning question, but at a recent gathering in ATL, water, mineral spirits, and xylene were mentioned as acceptable thinning agents. Choose your poison! Also, thinning and appl;ying more coats may give you more of a bite into the wood, being that its so dense. Cobalt and zirconium have been added to WTW to allow exceptional bonding between coats.

I know as far as painters go, multiple thin coats tend to give better protection, and less peeling. I would think the same would apply here.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

DEK can be applied to Ipe' but you would need to use acetone to prep the wood first. Working in small sections, the acetone will be effective for up to 15 minutes before needing to be re-applied if you haven't put DEK on the wood in that time frame.

This is according to a Sikkens Rep.

Rod!~

[PressurePros 248]

What does the acetone do exactly?

[seymore 90]

What does the acetone do exactly?

If i'm not mistaken it will open the wood pores right Beth?

[James 624]

It's really simple Ipe" is impervious to filming products. Two negative's do not equal a positive in this equation. A product that must stick to something that doesn't want to be stuckered( new word) will not work.

My new favorite word is " beleaguered"- what people have done to their decks ( exotic wood ) is crazy man!!! They think I am a very expensive "Wood Guru" . This after being mislead by builders and paint stores who don't know any better. Why? Because they listen to Cabotage', Penifobia, and SiKKenology or Whoever..!! I am working on the Ten Commandment's of Exotic Wood now!! LOL ... On the third day " diamond jim" roze from under three coats of Sikkens,,,Hardy har har he... LOL

Happy Easter!!

Ken, I undrstand the process with TWP and developed my own way. There are many issues to contend with that are easily rectified not intended for world wide viewing.(WWV)

Side note for hard woods in general> have you noticed that some boards different from the rest do not take a finsh well or at all?