Enough of the stain gimmicks.

[RPetry 564]

Enough already. Three years ago, Cabot's Aussie Oil was all the rage for hardwoods. I bought into the party line. Applied mahogany flame to my own new ipe' deck. Last year, stripped with NaOH and applied again. Big mistake.

Stripped again yesterday with 10 oz./gal. of F-18. Actually stripped twice in some areas. No go. The stuff is insidious. On ipe'.

This hardwood will get a final sanding to get rid of the remaining ATO and be left alone for a while.

[PressurePros 248]

Thats a coincidence Rick. We finished some maintenance work early so I decided to do my deck. I was going to strip the whole thing and try the Wood Tux (my deck is mahogany, the real thing) Anyway the rails were still replling water or in this case, stripper. What do you find to be the weaknesses in ATO? I decided to stay with the ATO on the rails as it wouldn't budge. I have done it every year for the last three years with just a cleaning and it held up well. It fades in direct sunlight. Is this due to the pigmentation?

[RPetry 564]

Hey Ken,

I decided to stay with the ATO on the rails as it wouldn't budge.

That is part of the problem I have with ATO or any stain that will not strip in a normal manner. What the frick is in it and why doesn't a decent mix of NaOH take it off?

Mind you, this is ipe' or in your case, mahogany. These are hardwoods. ATO is suppose to be a oil based stain. Hardwoods do not take a lot of stain, due to the nature of the wood. Why can't we strip it normally?

Areas that were exposed to a lot of sun and moisture stripped fine. I'm concerned with shaded and protected wood. It does not strip well, and I sanded this afternoon. Something is wrong with the product.

Picture taken after 10 months of ATO on ipe'. Full sun exposure. Stripped last year, but not sanded. My deck needs lots of remedial work.

[James 624]

All I can Say is eat me industry. Told you so years agO. POOP.......>>>

[RPetry 564]

Poop is correct. Even after stripping twice in a few areas and sanding with 50 grit, the ipe' in spots is still discolored. Areas next to the grill where there was a half moon doormat and under the umbrella stand are dark.

What is in this stuff? The Cabot tech sheets say linseed and tung oil, along with long-oil alkyds. Could it be these alkyds? The limited information I found using Google indicates these so called long-oil alkyds are used in producing ink and many paints, including enamels. Arggg!

What has me worried is that I have a lot of hardwood customers that I used Aussie Oil on their wood. Now what?

[bforbis 14]

Rick,

I am by far an expert, but what I know about chemicals and wood might fit into a thimble, but the very properites that make the wood and the stain withstand as individuals....ie the wood is tight grain hardwood; the tung oils (long chain alkyds) have a very low viscousity and flow into the the tight grain. Once they dry into the grain, its sort of like the old chinese finger trap thing, the molecular structure is a chain and difficult to break and totoally remove.

I realize this does not help remove it, I think the option is sanding or similar.

[RPetry 564]

Brent,

Thanks. Understanding is half the battle! Knew it was not the linseed oil. Seems that most oil based exterior stains are linseed based and most are easily strippable.

The tung oil is a likely suspect. Aussie Oil is the only exterior wood stain that I can recall using tung. I know many interior wood stains that use it but not exterior. I appreciate the analogy of the chinese finger trap, very descriptive. Don't pretend to understand a lot of the chemistry but would like to learn a little.

The listing of a long-oil alkylid in the ATO ingredients has me a bit puzzled. Figure it must be a man made ingredient, most probably a resin. What exactly is a resin? I understand that linseed is a "long oil", but I guess not a alkylid or a resin. Very confusing.

The second picture was taken after sanding. There are darker areas to the right of the grill and towards the top of the picture. After two strips and sanding on ipe', one of the hardest woods that I know of, and the wood is still discolored. Something is foul in Aussie oil.

Now I just have to figure out an effective way to get it off my customers wood.

[RPetry 564]

Stripped and sanded ipe' deck with new Indonesian plantation teak set. After a sodium hydroxide stripping (actually two in some areas) and a sanding, this ipe' deck is getting a break for awhile and weather naturally.

I'm tired of beating up on good wood. The teak is very oily to the touch and deserves to acclimate and just weather for a while. Anything else would be an intervention into the nature and properties of the wood. Maybe in 12 or 24 months the teak will get a light cleaning and some oil. Anything else before that time would be not be necessary or right for the wood.

The ipe' also deserves some respect. After two applications of Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil, two (or three in some areas) NaOH strippings and a sanding, the wood has just been beat up. It needs a rest and natural time to be ipe'. Maybe 4 months or so. Enough.

Some woods deserve time to age and adjust to the environment. Chems and stains are proper with many woods, but not for others. Some woods, like wines, just should be allowed to age and mellow gracefully.

At the proper time in the future, both woods will be washed with a light bleach mix and hose pressure rinsed. They will both be easily oiled, and it sure will not be Cabot's Aussie oil.

[RCBill 14]

Rick,

It's a pleasure to read your posts. You have the chops to write a book.

Bill

[mas3372 14]

brent is on to something. Tung oil penetrates deep. If the stripper is not capable of penetrating, it won't touch it.

When ever I finish furniture with tung, I am sure to fill the grain so the tung can only penetrate so much and will do so evenly.

[RPetry 564]

Bill,

It's a pleasure to read your posts. You have the chops to write a book.

Its not me. There are other folks both here and on BBS's gone by that have taught me a lot about wood. There's a guy on this board with a stupid bird on his head that may just know more about exterior wood than all of us.

Mike,

Agree with the tung, I guess. Aussie oil is the only exterior stain that I have seen with tung. I'm also a bit perplexed with this long oil stuff. Guess its some kind of resin or some such.

The one thing I do know, is if I can't strip it normally, let alone sand it out of the wood, I'm not using it again. Period. Just have to figure out what to do with my existing hardwood customers.

[RCBill 14]

Rick,

You articulate your love for the craft well.

Just a complement.

[plainpainter 217]

To respond to a post wondering about linseed oil, resins, long oils - let me explain.

linseed oils, alkyds, long oils - these are all resins, they are the glue that holds the pigment to the wood. Yes linseed and tung oils are resins, they are part of a family of oils called 'drying' oils. Since they polymerize in the presence of air to become hard subtances.

Alkyds are man-made synthetic resins - meant to replace natural oils such as linseed and tung oils, I guess manufacturers of all types, paint, pharmaceutical have a love affair with replacing natural ingredients with synthetic ingredients they make in the lab. Alkyds have the added benefit that since they are man-made - they don't have food content in them for mildew to feed on. Although this has yet to stop mildew, lol. But alkyds have the drawback of not being very flexible - nor do they seep deeply into wood like natural oils do. So manufacturers have modified these alkyds to combine them with linseed oils - and have come up with a hybrid resin, typically called 'linseed alkyds' or linseed modified alkyds. And the percentage of length that this oil molecule is linseed vs. alkyd puts it into 3 different categories, short, medium, and long alkyds <-------- important! A long alkyd is an oil modified alkyd whose length is over 70% natural resin like linseed or tung, and the remainder alkyd. Gives you the best of both worlds.

As for the aussie oil - I remember complaining about how I couldn't get my deck stripped. I was using 12 oz. of lye and 6 oz. of sodium metasilicat per gallon of water - and it still took like 7 applications. And much further sanding. The product I was using was Muralo's transparent decking staing which is a tung oil rich product. Tung oil is the main ingredient in Spar varnish - and as you know, only spar varnish is tough enough to withstand outdoors applications in the varnish family. So me thinks tung oil is the culprit. As I have tried stripping other decks since - and each one has been a breeze! I think by the looks of Sikkens deck products - they look a lot like marine/spar varnish - I bet they're rich in tung alkyds as well - thus the difficulty in stripping them as well.

-Dan

[RPetry 564]

Bill,

Thanks, it is a craft. There is no sense in working this hard, for minimal financial retrurn, without enjoying wood and trying to do the best work possible. Trying to learn and fathom the wheat from the chaff can be daunting, but I'm willing to try.

Dan,

And the percentage of length that this oil molecule is linseed vs. alkyd puts it into 3 different categories, short, medium, and long alkyds <-------- important! A long alkyd is an oil modified alkyd whose length is over 70% natural resin like linseed or tung, and the remainder alkyd.

Wow. You are the diamond in the rough. It is starting to make a lot of sense. I always wondered why so many exterior stain manus used linseed oil, thought it was because it was cheap, available, and throw in a lot of mildewcides and it was good to go. Now I am beginning to get the picture.

they polymerize in the presence of air to become hard subtances

Sure do. Every linseed oil based stain I've encountered forms a film. I have learned at some personal cost, to avoid them like the plague.

Yeah, tung oil for exterior wood and Aussie Oil is out. Been there, done that, and will be paying the price for a while with maintenance customers. Funny you mention Spar Varnish, I was applying it today on sanded bare wood slats for my old Weber grill. It certainly did not strip with NaOH, but at least got the old grease off. Mineral spirits wipe, three coats with a 220 grit sand in between, and the grill is ready for another 4 yrs.

Your knowlege and my limited experience, confirms what I have seen on the job. Linseed and certainly tung oil is a no go on exterior wood.

Thanks for your enlightenment.

[seymore 90]

Rick the last pic with your Teak furniture looks good.It looks like you got all the stain in that area.

How are you sanding your deck belt sander?

[RPetry 564]

Shane,

Nah. Never could get the correct feel and control of a belt sander. After stripping the bejesus out of a few areas, used not 50 but 60 grit Klingspor on a 7" random orbital Porter Cable. Knee pads, time, and dirty work but worth it for good wood.

There is still some discolored wood where the umbrella stand and half moon mats were. Even after sanding. From Dan's post above I guess it may be the tung oil. All I understand at this point is to avoid Assie oil on hardwoods from now on.

I know you don't see a lot of strange hardwoods down your way but I bet they are coming. The market is just getting flooded with all sorts of weird S. American and Asian wood.

[seymore 90]

I know you don't see a lot of strange hardwoods down your way but I bet they are coming. The market is just getting flooded with all sorts of weird S. American and Asian wood.

I found this one guy using this "Angel heart" http://www.ipe-wood.com/angelim.html#install_guide

He was asking me about buying some clear to apply after he finished building just to give the decks a nice oiling.I'm still licking my chops hoping to get a chance to walk on one atleast give a bid.

[RPetry 564]

Shane,

Took a quick look, it seems like another spinoff of ipe'. Not as hard or dense, another species, but similar.

I'd tell him to let it sit for awhile, maybe four months. Then a light bleech! clean. It will dry fast, take a break. Use a lambswool pad and Baker's (paraffinic oil, bless you!) application, very little stain, on the wood. Might have to come back in 6 months or so do do another oiling.

I think the trick is to build up enough oil in these hardwoods to keep maintenance down. May take a while though because these woods can be difficult to get much oil into the wood.

[seymore 90]

Thanks Rick :cool:

He had been using some linseed oil "dummy huh"?

With all the humidity we have here i would hate to see those decks after 6 months-1yr they're probally black as ever with mildew!

[RPetry 564]

Shane,

Yeah, I would think with your high temps and humidity in the Houson area being near the Gulf.

From what I have been able to dig up, linseed oil is the perfect food for mold and mildew. As its cheap and readily available, these stain manus use it and throw in a bunch of mildewcides to counteract the mold problem.

I'm not going to use any product, any more, on any wood, with linseed oil. There are better oils for exterior wood.

[RPetry 564]

Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil, mahogany flame color, on ipe'. After two serious sodium hydroxide strips, and a hard sanding with 60 grit, the results. I will never use this stain again.

[bforbis 14]

Hey Rick and Others...

I have skimmed through several of the posts since i gave my humble opinion. But i really identify with and sincerely appreciate your approach to wood needing time. I came from the coast where there was a lot of teak and a very close friend of mine had a business with high end boats and cars. Boats have lots of teak, shaping a surf board required a "FEEL" not just templates and a machine.

You can use your search engine to get into the chemistry of these stains. With some basic organic and inorganic chemistry you'll begin to get the picture. Think of the long chain molecules as a series of bends at 90 degrees. At each bend is another molecule that has attached to it a major chemcial group.

Well I am heading into (too) deep territory, but there some info there i would glad to help try to explain and or direct you to.

By understand the grain structure and the chemical structure of the stain, you can understand what will and will not work and why (at least "theoretically").....have to adjust for changing factors like what phase the moon is in!!! LOL

The half moon area from the mats is silicon leaching from the mat. have seen that before. Would ahve to do more reasearch to find what will reverse. Almost all mats have some sort of silicon based materials.

[seymore 90]

The half moon area from the mats is silicon leaching from the mat. have seen that before. Would ahve to do more reasearch to find what will reverse. Almost all mats have some sort of silicon based materials.

The mat leaking sillycone makes sense Brent way to go on the research!:lgkeyboar

[RPetry 564]

Brent,

Perfect. Great job. Thanks. Certainly makes a lot of sense. Those two spots under the mats were, and still are, by far the worst areas. Shaded areas ( there's a 4' overhang by the wall) were tough but not as bad. A PVC enclad umbrella stand, as well as under the old table were tough, but no where near the problem with the friggin' mats. Sillycone! Isn't some major manu. using it in stains?

I still stand by my original complaint. If you cannot strip off one coat of Aussie oil without sanding on a ipe' deck that gets full sun, I do not want to use the product.

[seymore 90]

Just put the mat in the same place problem solved! ;)

I have a hell of a time to touch my Gray Away when cleaning "bleach" after removing the mat.Now I'm not trying to remove the stain 100% anyway cause it will blend in after i stain the deck.I think when working with a stain it's very important for the stain to be able to blend in when doing maintance work or touch-ups.

[James 624]

That will happen with any type of rug. The finish is protected from the sun. The sillycone point is a good one .

I stripped a 450 sqft Of Aussy Sap Fluid yesterday (IPE'). Did it twice high pressure. I have not seen it dry yet.