Enough of the stain gimmicks.

[RPetry 564]

Enough already. Three years ago, Cabot's Aussie Oil was all the rage for hardwoods. I bought into the party line. Applied mahogany flame to my own new ipe' deck. Last year, stripped with NaOH and applied again. Big mistake.

Stripped again yesterday with 10 oz./gal. of F-18. Actually stripped twice in some areas. No go. The stuff is insidious. On ipe'.

This hardwood will get a final sanding to get rid of the remaining ATO and be left alone for a while.

[plainpainter 217]

Just curious - if we weren't so interested in getting a deck finish stripped. Wouldn't we like the tenacity at which products like Aussie oil sticks? Couldn't we put them in the category of - 'won't strip but will clean and reapply' - ? I am certainly new to stripping, and haven't stripped alot of decks that were previously done by me. I just cleaned them, sanded some spots where bare wood was showing, and then reapplied. Sure it doesn't look as cherry as a totally stripped deck - but still works. I guess I still believe in natural resins like tung and linseed to protect my wood. What is wood-tux and readyseal made of?

-Dan

[bforbis 14]

Everthing I have researched for a solvent for silicon based materials involve some nasty chemistry. I found one article that suggests ammonia as a solvent, which is by far the safest of any of the groups I found....But it would be an experiment.

Perhaps the easiest alternative would be to sand the crap out of that area???? Sorry but not much help! Silicon groups and similar are very difficult to break the bonds chemically. They are usually surrounded by large nitrile groups and the chemical bonds are many, from many different angles (remember the Chinese finger trap?....Very similar chemical structure)

[RPetry 564]

Brent,

Chinese finger trap and chicken before the egg? This stuff can drive you crazy. Did the silicone from the mats actually stain the ipe' or did it somehow act as a protective barrier not allowing the stripper to get to the tung and/or linseed oil? In any event, sanding did not get the discolored area out of the wood.

The entire ipe' deck had to be sanded. This is after a strip with F-18 Max at 10 oz./gal., a fairly strong mix. On a single very light application of Aussie oil applied by hand with lambswool, that was 10 months old. On a deck that gets full sun virtually all day. Something is in the product preventing decent stripping. Earlier in this thread, Ken Fenner stated that he could not strip 3 yr. old Aussie oil from his mahogany spindles. Jim Foley above had to strip ipe' twice at high pressure to try and remove Aussie oil, and did not know the results. I think the likely suspect is the tung oil, which you so well pointed out.

Dan,

Wouldn't we like the tenacity at which products like Aussie oil sticks? Couldn't we put them in the category of - 'won't strip but will clean and reapply' - ?

Sure it doesn't look as cherry as a totally stripped deck - but still works.

On premium hardwoods, this just does not work, at least for me and certainly for my customers. We paid a ton of money for these woods. Some, like ipe' and teak, really do not need a finish. Parts of the Atlantic City, NJ boardwalk were rebuilt with ipe' 25 years ago. The wood has never seen a finish, and is still in great shape today. But if you want to highlight the wood, and are willing to do all the maintenance required, the wood has to look great.

Cabot's Austrailian Timber Oil has been marketed and ballyhooed as the best treatment for exterior hardwoods.

Take a look at my first picture posted on this thread. After 10 months, the Aussie oil is fine in some areas, failed or non-existant in some areas, and heavily pigmented in the shaded and sillycone mat areas. If the deck was cleaned and Aussie oil reapplied, the deck would be very "blotchy" or uneven looking. And building up a finish over any uneven, failing finish is not a great idea.

Sooner or later with film finishes, the wood will have to be stripped. I can hardly imagine the nightmare of stripping multiple applications of Aussie oil, one was bad enough.

One could use a solid pigmented oil stain or god forbid, an solid acrylic finish on the wood and the finish may have better longetivity. But why would anyone do that to a premium hardwood? May as well have built the deck with less expensive pressure treated lumber.

I've been told that Wood Tux is a linseed based oil stain. I know Ready Seal is a paraffinic oil, a man made oil produced from petroleum distillates.

[PressurePros 249]

Rick, the rails on my deck have seen a fresh coating of ATO every year for the past three years. They still looked great, I just wanted to try the Tux on them. After three coats I had no real buildup or any evidence of a failing film. I think the key with formulations of linseed oil based sealers is to get maximuum penetration on initial application and then keep the maintenance coats thin. I, too, have many ATO hardwood decks out there. None of them has more than three coats, but I am wondering at what point, if any, they will reach maximum and have to be stripped. If you stay with ATO, why would you have to strip to bare wood?

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

My mistake. From your post I thought you meant that you cleaned them for three years, not stained them. No wonder they couldn't be stripped!

Maybe I'm just too picky. In all honesty, if it was up to me, I'd just let the ipe weather naturally forever and aside from a yearly light cleaning, never touch the teak. But I'm married and thats just not going to happen! I've managed to wrangle a 4 month reprieve on the ipe' and a year or two on the teak, but she wants it oiled.

Last year after the first app of Aussie oil, cleaned the deck and took a look. Same situation, uneven finish on the floor. Determined that it was best to strip and try again. Should have sanded last year though.

You know I'm not a fan of any exterior stains that form a film on decks. It would seem to me that after numerous applications, you are just building up the finish and not really getting much of anything into the wood. I would think that the constant addition of pigments is sooner or later going to start hiding the grain of the wood.

This is speculation, not experience. But I'm not going to try it on my deck or any longer on customer's hardwoods. Because if there is a future problem how do you fix it? You're kind of stuck. And this "unbreakable" bond of tung oil to the wood could be a real problem.

Who knows, who cares, we all just do what we think is best. Starting this year, I'm trying a different approach to hardwoods. Won't know if it works or not for a few years but I do know I will not have an unsolvable problem in the future.

[PressurePros 249]

I definitely feel where you are coming from, Rick. When and if the problem arises it is going to be one helluva solution to try and strip 50 or so ATO laden hardwood decks.

As far as the pigmentation issue clouding grain.. From my experience and from the sound of your own, The ATO fades very badly in our climate over the course of a year so its not the darkening that concerns me, it is the building film. I clean all of the ATO decks with EFC-38 which serves to give the new sealer an edge on penetrating since it acts as a mild stripper. So far so good.

In five years we may be comparing notes and both be kicking ourselves. Let me know how you make out on the hardwoods with the RS

[bforbis 14]

Hey Rick and Others,

I wish I had more answers, but still digging into the chemistry of the components. I would have expected that after you sanded you would have gotten to "original wood" color or something close. I have even seen ceramic tile and concrete absorb the silicon from mats that left a discoloration behind.

The silicon will do both to "stain or discolor" and create a barrier. That's why they work so great....and not so great when trying to remove them. It's almost like teflon (similar chemical structure).

Here is a link where I found some relatively good information. It will explain the differences between silicons groups and how they are processed. More importantly, where the weakness is! Below is a quote about a general weakness. I realize this is "untested" for wood restoration as far as I know.... but perhaps, you could test a small area and see. Use a dropper portion of strong acid followed by strong base (not the same dropper though).

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=920#_Classes_of_Silicone

Thermal Stability

The thermal stability of silicones stems from the thermal stability of Si-O and Si-CH3 bonds which are themselves thermally stable. However, the partially ionic nature of these bonds (51%), means that they can be easily destroyed by concentrated acids and alkalis at ambient temperatures

.

[RPetry 564]

Brent,

Holy smokes do you understand the chemistry on that site? Early this spring we had a sometimes heated, but educational and fun thread on bleach and wood. I had a very good old friend with a doctorate in chemistry glance at the subject. His conclusion, in a nutshell, was that without a lab, a whole lot of time and testing, experience by contractors in the field was probably the best measure!

An acid followed by a caustic, reverse stripping! Very interesting idea. But I'm giving my wood a deserved rest and just let it weather naturally for a while. Its just been beat up with sanding and strippers, it needs to be ipe' for as long as my wife allows it!

Silicone discoloring ceramic tile? Wow, no wonder it did not sand out of the ipe'.

Thanks for your time and knowlege.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Since the VOC compliance formulation changes, C.A.T.O. has become a problem with the mildew growth and flashing upon application with us as well.

Before it performed really well and it always gave us a finish that anyone could appreciate. I am not about to go back to Messmer's but we are seriously considering WTW since the formulation seems to be quite similar to what C.A.T.O. used to be. (don't quote me on this, I am not a chemist by any means and do not pretend to be.) We are still deliberating...

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

A sikkens dealer told me in regards to their Dek and Dek-base products. That you should clean the deck and reapply a coat every year before failure occurs. And that his sister has been doing that for the last 14 years on her deck and it looks great - I guess like marine varnish or something. I know if we come to a new customer's house - and they have this dingy failing finish - we all just want to strip it and start from scratch. But wouldn't it just make you feel bad to re-strip your own decks every time you come back? Wouldn't you rather just sell them on a yearly re-application? I know stain should be applied to bare wood - but it just seems counter productive to strip each time. I am undecided on this.

-Dan

[plainpainter 217]

I don't know I am just a believer in Tung oil's toughness. I think using caustics may be the wrong way to go with tung oil based products - anyone every think of using acids to strip? I have tried like hell to strip my tung oil based deck stain from Muralo - but did notice my Cat' vomit - took it right off! And you could use Bicarbonate of soda to neutralize.

-Dan

[PressurePros 249]

Dan, I think you are on the right track. Russell, Stuttering Bob, Rowlett and whomever else markets stripper would have me as a customer for life if they can come with something that will strip acrylics and not cost $30+ per gallon.

[JFife 14]

..What exactly would you be willing to pay, Kenneth???:) What would be a fair price?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If you cannot strip off one coat of Aussie oil without sanding on a ipe' deck that gets full sun, I do not want to use the product.

We've stripped ATO off in one attempt, less than a year old, shaded deck, used HD-80. It can be done.

Brent, excellent call on the mat! :dancing:

Beth

[bforbis 14]

Rick::::Holy smokes do you understand the chemistry on that site? Early this spring we had a sometimes heated, but educational and fun thread on bleach and wood. I had a very good old friend with a doctorate in chemistry glance at the subject. His conclusion, in a nutshell, was that without a lab, a whole lot of time and testing, experience by contractors in the field was probably the best measure!

Yes I agree on the tesing aspect. I went down that avenue a number of months ago. I have a solid chemical and chemistry background, but lost that job several years back. I still like digging into the chemistry of things and how they work, but loosing a lot and making assumptions without bench testing and confirmation are only just assumptions ans theory.

I am sure the IPE would like a vacation from assault! Wish you luck

[plainpainter 217]

Ken, when you say 'acrylics' you mean semi-transparent and solid latex stain, right? Some ways I can get latex paint off is to just slap on raw linseed oil and come back the next day, I have noticed cleaning my brushes with lacquer thinner on a latex painted railing made the paint come right off. But both are not economical, messy, and potentially hazardous. Heck I sometimes will clean my latex brushes with MEK - and all the dried latex paint caught up deep in the bristles just flow out with a quick spin. But again solvents are kind of gross. Not to mention they evaporate in seconds! But useful knowledge if you have to clean up a little section. I know lots of paint companies market certain types of latex floor paint for industrial uses as they are very resistant to chemicals, acids, etc. So I don't think it will be easy to find a product that strips latex - short of paint stripper.

-Dan

[RPetry 564]

Dan,

I know if we come to a new customer's house - and they have this dingy failing finish - we all just want to strip it and start from scratch. But wouldn't it just make you feel bad to re-strip your own decks every time you come back? Wouldn't you rather just sell them on a yearly re-application? I know stain should be applied to bare wood - but it just seems counter productive to strip each time. I am undecided on this.

I agree with the stripping problem. Not that it is a hard process to do, its just that I believe sodium hydroxide is bad for wood. A partial quote from a paper on NaOH....

The paper industry uses the caustic effects of sodium hydroxide on organic materials. Sodium hydroxide breaks down the lignin in wood. Lignin is a binder that holds cellulose fibers together in wood. When the lignin is removed, the freed cellulose fibers can be formed into paper. The digestive effects of sodium hydroxide on organic materials is the principle behind such drain cleaners as Liquid Plumr, which is a concentrated aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide.

My underline on the 2nd sentence. The full paper is at http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/GenChem/ChemWeek/Chlorine%20and%20Sodium%20Hydroxide.pdf

Maybe Brent can help us out on the chemistry.

This is one of the reasons I now only use Ready Seal stains. No stripping, ever again. Just a maintenance oiling every two years on softwoods.

I do not know the correct maintenance on hardwoods yet as I just started using Ready Seal on these species this year. I expect a light bleach mix, rinsed at very low pressure, and a light lambswool application of Ready Seal at maybe the 6 month mark after first application.

Once enough oil is into the hardwood, I expect a yearly maintenance thereafter, similar to other stains. What I do know is that maintenance prep will be a lot quicker and easier than NaOH stripping, and less harmful to the wood.