Ron M's great caustic debate - split from another thread

[Mike Williamson 198]

i never said your chemical couldnt be used safely.

If you just call maybe,maybe, maybe i could explain more clearly.

your getting upset over nothing.......its all about the process & %%%%%%

Ron....maybe, just maybe, if you took the time to type out more clearly what you mean, and proofread it first, you wouldn't be misunderstood, and we wouldn't be confused. You type like a hyperactive foreign immigrant with little command of the english language...and I know you don't talk that way.

Please answer the following questions to at least clarify some points for me...

When you refer to neutralizing the roofs afterwards, was that after using sodium hypochlorite (bleach) or a sodium hydroxide based cleaner?

When you refer to caustic, are you referring to bleach, or sodium hydroxide?

I don't *think* you're trying to be arrogant or offensive, but that's how you're c oming across...kinda like "I know it ALL because I have TWENTY-FOUR YEARS of experience, and you? You're just STUPID"

The vast majority of roofs in the US are asphalt/fiberglass shingles. When we talk about using too much pressure on a roof, we're talking for the most part about asphalt shingles. It doesn't take much pressure to remove the protective granules. I've seen many roofs that looked like they were still dirty afer I cleaned them, but it was actually the black asphalt/tar part of the shingle showing through where previous contractors had blasted the granules right off.

Most of us don't use off the shelf store bought bleach (which is usually 5-6%, not 3%), we use liquid pool shock at 10.5-12%. Basically the same thing. We cut it down with water to the strength we need to get things clean.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Sitting on the sidelines is sometimes a good thing.

Ron, you stuck your head into a hornets nest and now your trying to get them to calm down after insulting each and everyone of them. I got the same read that everyone else did. You told everyone posting and inadvertently the readers that they don't know what they are talking about and that you have been in doing this for 25 years. My take on this was, that all that should shut them up and they should listen to you because of that boast. Well, quite clearly many disagreed. Be aware that a common common sense approach members use here is: It doesn't matter how long someone has been doing something because they could have been doing it wrong all along. And when you make statements in the manner as you did, look out! There are too many people here who have some exceptional backgrounds and I for one would not think for one moment that I know more than any one person here.

Racechaser happens to work with chems on a daily basis in a manufacturing environment. We met him last December in Louisiana and had lunch with him. I think that his work required knowledge and background in NIOSH, OSHA, EPA and DOT regulations could probably be way above the norm seen here and considering his main trade could teach us something should he decide to share anything relevant.

Most of us know that when two or more chemicals are mixed together you get something else. Chemistry is not all that surprising and I would understand that in our business we need to know what happens under circumstances when chems are mixed together and what happens to them on the surface they come into contact with. Many changes take place in chemicals especially when they come into contact with metals. Metals are used as catalysts to obtain reactions and produce heat. Then in turn other chemicals are added in measured amounts in order to obtain another compound or reactive.

Yes, gasses can be formed and gasses are present in most of what we use. Sodium Hydroxide is water reactive and creates heat in the exchange of molecules. Add another chemical that causes destabilization of the reaction and a gas is released.

Add bleach to an acid and oxygen is released, heat is generated, and a toxic gas is released in the process.

Bleach was a gas (Chlorine) before it was turned into a liquid that we use in cleaning processes. Yes, it turns back into a gas as it evaporates and that is the harmful part that the EPA is trying to control.

Sodium Hydroxide aside from being used as a caustic is also used as a pH adjuster in many manufacturing processes. ex: Go check your toothpaste box label. The fact of how much is used is not as important as to how long it is allowed to be reactive. In putting a shingle into a bucket of NAOH, even at minimum concentration the chemical will destroy the molecular structure over time. Increasing the concentration speeds up the process only to the extent of the chemicals caustic range (liken it to either a spectrum or bandwidth) Increase that range by adding another caustic whose range encompasses those outside of NAOH and you have increased not only it's causticity but the number of other materials it can work on.

Bleach in itself does not react in that range to affect the molecular structure of asphalt shingles or tile. Tile contains clay which is naturally colored and cannot be affected either in color or structure by the oxidizing effects of bleach. This makes it a suitable chemical for use on roofs.

In respect to our members:

On TGS, there are many people including those who do not speak up here and read regularly who have college backgrounds and work experiences that surpasses the multi-faceted field of what we know as power washing. But what they could possibly bring to the table is invaluable and I respect each and everyone of them and would never belittle anyone no matter how big my head may sometimes get. Someone always knows something more!

Rod!~

[newlook 265]

Nice post Rod.

I flunked Chemistry in H.S. so I am not event going to touch this :)

[PWkid 79]

Rod, I stand up and applaud you. Excellant post. Sometimes things come across differently when typing instead of speaking. I know I do it all the time. I respect each and every member here I don't always agree but that is why we live in America. Arguments or disagreements are good sometimes to keep us in check. There are several reasons I use sodium hypochlorite v/s sodium hydroxide on roofs.We have discussed them in depth here this issue keeps coming up. IMHO I think people push sodium hydroxide because it can be bottled as a roof cleaner and be SOLD. There is a lot of money to be made. The reason I say this is because I have made my own recipe I know how much it costs and the mark up ( can anyone say jewelry stores). Obviously both systems work or people wouldn't use either of them. I simply choose a cheaper and more efficient manner of cleaning roofs. The Florida market as far as pressure cleaning goes is a crazy one. We have several cleaners in my area that work for beer money. I know for a fact some are happy to make $100. a day. I have a business to run and I can sit home and break even.These comments are for my area only (so I am not misunderstood.) Ron is an experienced cleaner and is well respected I just question his method of relaying his knowledge to other members not as experienced. I have read other posts he has made in the past he comes across very arrogant and that his SH** doesn't stink.

[racechaser 64]

Scott,

We are glad to have you here as a part of TGS. We hope you will continue to be a part of this community. You are a professional among the many professionals here, and Rod and I are personally glad we had the opportunity to meet you last year.

Beth

:cup: must have coffee... :cup:

Don't worry. If it sounded like I was threatening to leave....well no.. I'm just staying out of a confusing debate with someone who has an attitude that I would consider less than polite.I gave Ron the benefit of the doubt when he misread my post(I feel). But it continued none the less.

I love the Grime Scene!!!! You'll have to drag the keyboard out of my hands to get me out.

Scott

[racechaser 64]

i never said your chemical couldnt be used safely.

If you just call maybe,maybe, maybe i could explain more clearly.

your getting upset over nothing.......its all about the process & %%%%%%

Ron

I understand what you are trying to say. The problem with what you say is you skip words and the reader is left guessing.You are also confusing in your argument (bouncing around).

I have no anger toward you at all. If we ever meet, It'll be like nothing happened.Until you start with that condescending attitude you seem to have portrayed here.

I'm sure it's not as bad in person as on a computer screen.On the screen though I must say, your attitude towards others BITES!!

Just read what you said... "you contractors"....."like most of ya'll on a BBS"....."I'm Ron Musgrave...I've got 24 years experience and am a leader in this industry.Who are you?? Are you even real? Tell us your experience before you dare question me.......You need to quit telling us your opinion and back everything up with published test results. It may sound a little dramatic because I'm only going by memory."

I guess no hard feelings here...next time the condescending attitude rears it's ugly head (if it does)I'll just assume that's your personality and won't take it personally.

Scott

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Thanks, to those who understand. I dont really care if you others dont understand or have taken offense.

I take it all the time, please be men.

I realize most do understand my reputation and willingness to help goes above and beyond most here. yes Most.... Ithink its funny when you in the above threads try to discredit me when thats exactly what your saying i did.

LOL

[Ron Musgraves 240]

last post, let me make it simple. its not always the chemical. its the process its self and the percentage or the chemicals.

Someone got it above, i think one person....maybe two. I think Carlos just stayed out.

Here,i will try the politically correct thing. To all those i offended that couldnt understand my poor writing skills,

Please call, i can explain....

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I'm not getting in the middle of all this fun, but I THINK Ron is saying S Hydrox is OK on a roof if it is neutralized after, which would & could make sense. Althou I have been confused at some of the posting, but hell I get confused by my own postings lol

I apoligize to you Jeff, i re-read this. you got it to...

Process and precedures. percentage of chemicals...

You got it. I can leave a asphalt time in a bucket of caustic and find it in the morningif the percentage was correct.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I don't *think* you're trying to be arrogant or offensive, but that's how you're c oming across...kinda like "I know it ALL because I have TWENTY-FOUR YEARS of experience, and you? You're just STUPID"

Thats funny,

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Maybe this is simple, some of your wives use bleach in colors. they even make bleach safe for colors now.

ask your wife is she has ever used bleach right out of the bottle on colors and didnt damage the towels?

instead of a cup she uses a few ounces and only adds after water level is high.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! thats simple i think...Now imagine you doing this to a roof.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Maybe this is simple, some of your wives use bleach in colors. they even make bleach safe for colors now.

ask your wife is she has ever used bleach right out of the bottle on colors and didnt damage the towels?

instead of a cup she uses a few ounces and only adds after water level is high.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! thats simple i think...Now imagine you doing this to a roof.

maybe that should be in a library for 1st graders.just kidding

[Mike Williamson 198]

Maybe this is simple, some of your wives use bleach in colors. they even make bleach safe for colors now.

ask your wife is she has ever used bleach right out of the bottle on colors and didnt damage the towels?

instead of a cup she uses a few ounces and only adds after water level is high.

WOW!!!!!!!!!! thats simple i think...Now imagine you doing this to a roof.

"bleach" made for colored clothes is not "chlorine" bleach...

Some fabrics are colorfast, and unaffected by bleach (meaning their coloring pigments are non-organic). Using even a couple ounces of bleach in a wash load of non-colorfast fabrics may not ruin them immediately, but will over time fade them much faster.

The problem with using very low strengths of sodium hypochlorite on roofs is that it isn't strong enough to "eat up" the algae. It will kill it (unless you're using a REALLY low strength mix) but the roof will still be dirty. The options are to pressure wash it to remove the algae (not good) or to use a stronger mix that will both kill and destroy the algae and it's root system. Most of us prefer the latter, since we CAN take steps to dilute the wash mix after it has run off the roof, but we cannot take steps to restore damaged shinges due to using too much pressure.

What's the difference if I use a very low strength mix directly on the roof, or if I spray it on stronger and then dilute it during the rinse process? Safe effect...diluted chlorine.

Do you even clean roofs?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I see.... Hey Ron, none of the roof guys on here have said they apply bleach to a roof at full strength. If you do a search in the roofing forum you will see that they have specific methods and ratios they use....

Straight out of the bottle just about anything can cause harm...that's kinda...obvious.

Beth

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Mike, it was and example, you can adopt it when your using your chemicals. Do i really need to say that.. NO you got it

I already went over its kills.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Beth , this all started simply because another members said that someone’s process was wrong.

He hadn’t even studied that mans process, admitted it right there in the post.

I simply said you would need to evaluate the decision before you made statements like that.

I’m working on loading my training videos; I once believed the same thing about certain chemicals being dangerous. It not the chemicals 99% of the time, It’s the applicator.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Some fabrics are colorfast, and unaffected by bleach (meaning their coloring pigments are non-organic). Using even a couple ounces of bleach in a wash load of non-colorfast fabrics may not ruin them immediately, but will over time fade them much faster

Not true, I can ad bleach to just about anything and not damage it. wear I cannot gurantee.

Mike, i have studied tested in my own shop. if you dont believe me its ok.

You dont have to be right or wrong. I'm not really concerned with that. I have gotten messages from your view and from others that get it.

My wife was the one who came up with the bleach example. ( i now use it at my shows, along with other chemicals) if you come to phx we can use the shirt off your back. if i destroy the shirt or the tiles I will pay for the cost of your trip. I doubt your attending the PWNA convention. so if anyone thats coming wants to take a crack at my challenge. Please let me know.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I simply said you would need to evaluate the decision before you made statements like that.

You've said a heck of a lot more than that. Yes, that's where this all started, but in the process you've managed (intentionally or not) to belittle quite a few of us, and create a lot of confusion.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ron,

Sodium hydroxide is not the preferred chemical for roof cleaning. This is according to ARMA. The PWNA coursework is in line with both ARMA and the CS&SB. I have already said this. However, there are good, better and best methods and good, better and best chemicals. There is nothing unusual about someone being anti-sodium hydroxide in a roof thread, just like you can expect to see anti-bleach banter in a wood thread quite often. Since you do flatwork I expect you would equate this to EPA banter. All areas of specialty have their own hot button topics and points of passion among those who perform these services as a larger portion of their business.

Beth

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Straight out of the bottle just about anything can cause harm...that's kinda...obvious.

You assume they all know this?????????? mistaken again

Beth your a good writer and you very well know that 70% of contractors dont apply correctly or you wouldnt be as successful as you say you are.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Not true, I can ad bleach to just about anything and not damage it. wear I cannot gurantee.

Ok, I'll bite. What do you consider damage then? What concentration? What dwell time? This should be enlightening.

Rod!~

[Ron Musgraves 240]

You've said a heck of a lot more than that. Yes, that's where this all started, but in the process you've managed (intentionally or not) to belittle quite a few of us, and create a lot of confusion

Sorry your confused Mike

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Since you do flatwork I expect you would equate this to EPA banter. All areas of specialty have their own hot button topics and points of passion among those who perform these services as a larger portion of their business.

Just to let the secret out, I do not do homes. The material on commercial roofs that i do wash range in large varietys.

The sq. feet amount each month i have not even added it. some building are 100 thousands of feet.

remember, Most roofs on commercial buildings are flat.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

All areas of specialty have their own hot button topics and points of passion among those who perform these services as a larger portion of their business.

My piont would apply in fleets hoods flat & decks. all!!!!!!!!!!!!!

its not about right or wrong,,,,,, process, totals process

[racechaser 64]

Beth , this all started simply because another members said that someone’s process was wrong.

He hadn’t even studied that mans process, admitted it right there in the post.

Show me that quote Ron. I'm quite interested to see what you're talking about.

Scott