Old cedar issues

[PressurePros 248]

Let me preface by saying, I hate cedar. Rick Petry, you can have all of my cedar decks. My question to the wood pros that have been doing decks for awhile.

When do you call it quits when applying sealer? Scenario: 25 year old cedar porch.. neglected.. strip solid.. replace some boards.. sand. Applied one coat of sealer and let soak in (this was hand brushed board by board as per customer request). After deck was complete, I had guys go back and brush in a second coat. First one was heavy, second was lighter but still heavy enough to have the entire deck wet looking when we drove away. Customer calls and is generally happy but of course is wondering why the knots are showing much lighter. There is definitely a point of diminishing return where any more coats are just going to form a film.

How do you handle the issue? What do you say to the customer

[JFife 14]

Tell customer "I think deck look good", looks nice for 25yrs neglected.

[seymore 90]

Is that WTW?

How many gallons you figured to use?

That cedar will soak up that stain like a sponge and those knots will always be lighter.I don't think you will able to get enough stain in the wood now.

[PressurePros 248]

I honestly believe I could have stayed there for three more hours applying sealer to those knots. Shane the sealer is Wood Rich and it definitely dives much deper than Wood Tux. Two coats of wood tux wet would have left that thing shinier than a new Porsche. Coverage rate after second coat was about 120 s/f per gallon.

[seymore 90]

Is WR a non drying oil?

You could tell her over applying it will rub off?

[James 624]

Product choice for the job is an issue. What is the solid content of the product used? If you use a non drying oil it soaks up into the wood fiber's better. The older the better on cedar. But the replaced boards and sanded area's wood really stick out.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Looks great for 25 years of neglect. Sure you could babysit the knots, but those are always problematic.

Beth

:cup:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Knots on cedar generally soak up more thoroughly that the surrounding wood. You could touch up the knots but it is no guarantee that it will stop doing it. I'd tell the guy to let it go for a couple of years and proceed with the regular maintenance.

25 years old and yeah, the deck is going to be problematic. Our work is not a cure all ills for something that hasn't been kept up for the long a period.

Good choice on the product though. Something to keep it moisturized.

Rod!~

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

Cedar can be a real PITA. But I like the look of the wood and the challenges it presents. A lot more difficult to work with than PT or hardwoods.

I do not know about Woodrich but with RS and cedar, it takes a few days after stain application for the color to even out and the pigments to cure to near the final color. With knotty WRC, knots are just what they are, part of the nature and composition of the wood. I have never spot stained cedar knots, all the wood gets the same amount of stain. Customers should understand this. After all, its what makes the wood look like cedar. I actually like the look of knotty WRC over clear cedar, its got more character.

You think you have a problem, I'm working on a old cedar job stripped of a very failed Behr's fine solid acrylic. Actually stripped pretty easily, but underneath in very shaded areas are what I can only assume are old mildew stains, impregnated into the wood. I can only speculate, being that the property has changed hands, but in all probability another fine Behr's product was probably used in the past, one of the formulas that resulted in the 185 million class action lawsuit due to inadequate mildewcides. I've seen this before on some PT wood, but never cedar. In addition, a carpenter replaced some cedar chewed up by squirrels with new wood.

What to do? Being that the blackish mildew stains are in the wood, you can soak it for a few hours with strong NaOH and get a lot of it out, but then you are really beating the bejesus out of the cedar itself. Or you and your customer have to accept the fact that the job will not be picture perfect. I prefer to preserve the integrity of the wood.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Ken

Those "white" spots you see on cedar have a lot to do with how light reflects/refracts at different angles because the pattern of the wood changes. The surface creates opposing angles causing a glare from certain angles. If you look at the same deck in the shade you won't have such a drastic difference. This is the same reason why one side of a herringbone pattern deck will look lighter than the other.

The only way to "handle" this with your customer is to help them to understand what to expect up front. (for a deck that old, I would say you've made it look spectacular)

Each product you work with will be different. The key is in providing an aesthetically pleasing finish with adequate protection for the wood. That is where products differ greatly. We all know that we are supposed to protect wood from, moisture, sun, dirt and grime, mold and mildew and so on. What you have to consider is how does the product you are using provide these protections.

In the case of a nondrying oil stain, there is no binder to lock the pigment in place. The finish doesn't dry so it's doesn't really seal the wood. This type of product works by saturating the wood to occupy all of the space and blocking out moisture. Because it doesn't dry, you can continue to apply more and more product until the wood becomes completely saturated. For the most part, the pigment is going to remain close to the surface and the oils are going to dive deeper into the wood.

With a non drying product, the more you apply the longer it will last. The moment you stop applying you begin to loose protection. The oils near the surface are most vulnerable because they can trap dirt, pollen and mold spores which is a real challenge for the anti-microbials. In addition rain can work to wash away the oils and pigment near the surface causing the finish to fade. Anything that is not locked to the wood will eventually be washed away.

The life cycle of a non drying stain is a linear slope. Each day you will have slightly less protection than the day before.

One of the best indications of how long a drying finish will last/protect is the pigment to binder ratio. The pigment is what protects the wood from the sun and prevents graying. Binders are what hold the pigment and anti-microbials in place for lasting protection. In a drying stain the binder oils will cure to lock everything (pigment and anti-microbials) in place and seal the wood. By drying and sealing the wood they help to prevent water from getting into the wood. Locking the pigment and biocides in place at the surface where protection is needed results in a lasting finish.

With a drying stain it is really going to come down to the pigment to binder ratio. For example Wood-Tux will provide the same protection at 400 square feet per gallon as it will at 200 square feet per gallon. This is because there is so much pigment and so much resin that you need much less penetration to lock in enough pigment and biocide to protect the wood. Because it actually cures it will continue to look the same until the finish begins to break down near the end of it's life cycle.

The life cycle of a drying stain is represented by a base line with a curve at the end. Wood-Tux has a very long base line with a broad curve.

Woodrich is also a drying stain. It has a lower pigment to binder ratio than Wood-Tux. It will dive much deeper into older dry wood because it has both drying and non drying oils. It does help to replenish the wood however still takes advantage of the curing properties to lock in the protection. Because it is lower in resin content, it is much easier to put more product into the wood. There is no real advantage in applying more than what is recommended. Like Wood-Tux, Woodrich is designed to protect the surface of the wood. You can get more oil down into the wood by over applying but that is not necessarily going to result in more protection for the wood.

Woodrich has a nice baseline with a faster curve.

If you are applying a drying stain, just remember, as long as you are applying wet on wet it will not form a film. The only time a drying stain will form a film is if the product can't dive into the wood. The only time that happens is if you apply more than the wood can take, or if your first application has dried preventing proper penetration of your second application.

I don't want to speak for other products but Wood-Tux is nearly impossible to under apply. You would have to try really hard to actually stain the wood without getting enough lasting protection. The greatest challenge for contractors who use wood-Tux is learning not to over apply it.

Woodrich is lower in pigment and resin so you can add a lot more product to the wood without over applying. Realistically if you ask when enough is enough I would say 200 square feet per gallon is enough. When I make claims as to what to expect from the product, they are based on a 200 square feet per gallon spread rate.

If the wood is very old and very dry, you can apply more than that if you want to replenish the wood but it won't have much effect on how long your customer considers the finish aesthetically pleasing. All they see is what is going on at the surface.

Does that make sense?

[JFife 14]

15 yr old cedar, neglected, knots didn't spot. I found the trick is to apply and let it cure for a while.....then come back and apply....kinda like a topcoat theory. Makes RS look better and more finished, person that recommended it to me said it will double (or close) the durability.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jon

That close up is really nice looking. Most homeowners around here prefer a much lighter color but in my eye, that is what natural stained wood siding is supposed to look like. Nice rich natural color with plenty of grain! Working with siding is nice because the knots are at a much better angle to the sun and usually only show up on the South side of the home if at all.

I've found in working with our DMC formula which is a nondrying, non-curing product like the Ready Seal, that over time the oils will migrate away from the surface allowing you to add more stain and load the pigments at the surface.

I like to recommend the DMC formula for very old dry cedar siding because of it's ability to go deep into the wood replenishing it. You can actually get old curled siding to lay back down. The problem is obviously that the surface doesn't hold out as long. I would normally say to come back with Wood-Tux to seal the wood and get the lasting protection. If the wood is not extremely dry I would just apply the Wood-Tux once and be done with it.

How long do you wait for the first application to soak in before you come back with the second application in order to (nearly) double the performance? After the two applications, what would you say is you final coverage per square feet on that 15 year old wood? With two applications, how long do you expect it to last?

What I am trying to determine is, on old dry cedar siding, what is going to be the most cost effective approach?

Thanks for your input.

[JFife 14]

Russ,

What I've been told, the enhanced performance is due to the pigment being suspended at the surface on the final coat. We do a light coat on a couple walls, followed by a saturation in about 30 minutes, backbrushed, heavy enough that the wood is soaked and the stain is gliding across the surface.

The final coat is done the same way, couple days or so later. Final coverage per sq. ft. I have no idea. That is something I don't really keep too good of track on.....what I do is bid the job at a point that I can do the absolute best possible job I can without the factor of stain cost becoming a burden to me. That is a variable that is hard to predict, and I don't like telling the customer that they have to pay for the stain. So I bid what I want, and I win and lose some. This was a moderate sized home, and we used about 75gal of RS. If I'd be using TWP, probably would have used half that. As for how long I expect this application of stain to last, my initial guess is somewhere between 35-40years. It will need periodic rinsing.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jon,

Looks great! :)

Beth

[JFife 14]

thanks Beth/rod,

Russ---another thing.....I've noticed what I like in colors changes about every year. Right now, I'd give anything to do a house in a nice dark brown cedar color.....that color there is RS Nat. Cedar.....most would go with something more like lightbrown, your Warmhoneygold, or TWP cedeartone. I used to like the light colors, now I am starting to like more walnut and mahogany looking finishes.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jon

I phrased my question wrong. On that cedar home job, how long do expect it to be before the finish will need to be maintained? How soon will you apply more stain to the wood?

[JFife 14]

I'm figuring on 35-40yrs.

[seymore 90]

I'm figuring on 35-40yrs.

WoW 35 years even the North side of the house??

[JFife 14]

Seymore,

...I said 35-40yrs, southern exposure.:) Seriously, I don't know. I told them it would be time for a wash and re-coat in 4-5 yrs or so.

[seymore 90]

Jon,I gotcha brotha :cool:

Did you get your e-mail on your package?

[JFife 14]

Didn't get email seymore!! Please re-send, I'll send you a blank email, jf

[Neil_Asheville 114]

That is a great color, Jon. I haven't yet grown to hate cedar, yet. Played with a cedar railing today with Woodrich and looks just gorgeous. 75gallons, my God. If you were at 100sf/gal or more that's more than a 'modest sized' house.

/neil

[James 624]

Product choice and solid content is the key to old cedar . If you have a product with 50% solids vs 90%. Side by side test it's a no brainer which will looks better and whats better for restoration. New cedar the 50% wood be better. Because there is no place for the solids to go.

Having a few products in the garage and knowing when to use what for each type of wood situation is key..

Just got back from drowning a cedar shake house with 50 gallons . " Ocean Front Grey" non drying oil That is.....

[PressurePros 248]

You don't honestly believe that marketing crap about RS having 90% solids do you Jim? Thats a manipulation of definition.

[JFife 14]

"Solids" are what stay in the wood, don't evaporate away, i.e. water, spirits, thinner. So by that definition, RS would be 80-90% solids, Ken. If you don't believe that, then I've got some "Ocean Front Grey" Property In Missouri to sell you, near Portage De Sioux:)

[PressurePros 248]

I'll explain to you why the logic is twisted in believing that. I am too tired to put together a coherent post right now.

If you believe that RS is 95% solids compared to products that actually use high quality materials with real solids content I will sell you a $100 amplifier that puts out a thousand watts.