What is most important in a deck restoration

[PressurePros 249]

Lets say everything else is equal in terms of company professionalism, prep technique and work quality. What is most important to you and more more importantly your customers when judging a finished deck? Homeowner's reading this post, please feel free to respond with your thoughts.

[PressurePros 249]

I am torn on this. I like customer to be very happy with the end results (ie. when I am getting paid) There sems to be a balance of fragility versus beauty that is hard to overcome. I can give a customer the most beautiful finish using products that don't hold up all that well. I can give them a finish that lasts for three years but it does not look as good as option one. I ask everyone what they seek but of course the answer is always somewhere in the middle.

[plainpainter 217]

Ken - I voted for a beautiful deck with yearly maintenance. Let me explain why - to me most customers won't remember you for the great quality work that lasted forever - they'll remember you for spilling some deck stain on their bricks or what not. I just don't think customers care about quality that much - if they did, why are there so many hack contractors to this day! People should have learned by now. My opinion is that if you have long time clients - they should be educated 100% of everything - let them decide what they want. Tell 'em the more beautiful finish will only last a year and will need to be torn down the next and redone - and the better finish will last longer - but won't look as nice. For clients I don't really know - I tell 'em because of the elements, mother nature, blah, blah - a deck needs to be done every year if it's in sun - and every 18 months if it's in total shade. And then give 'em the prettiest product. BTW - what do you think is the prettiest product - I'd like to use it. Oh - I just did some deck staining with woodtux - I like the product very much - I thought it was extremely similar to Muralo's lumberjacket stain that is a staple of mine, only a tad bit darker - but not what I would cosider to be semi-transparent, it's still what I would call a transparent stain, tinted perhaps - but def. transparent. Semi-transparent is more like interior woodstain finishes - that' what I consider semi. But definitely something I will add to my arsenal. Unlike others on here - I think where this product will shine is on decks - that I have absolutely no luck on trying to stain them on a cloudy or cool day - some of my decks are always as hot as roofs for some reason - and I can never apply stain under ideal conditions, so I think I with this product I can hose down the deck and cool it off tremendously allowing me to stain at an appropriate temperature.

-Dan

[PressurePros 249]

Thanks Dan, good stuff. Anyone else. What would you like on your own deck? Even if you don't do restoration?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Given an inspection of a deck, I may have one expectation but the customers is not always as realistic. There is a gray area here where it is up to us to make the expectation as realistic as possible IF all the variables are identified and addressed such as; What is currently on it, when it was installed, by whom it was installed, what the preparation methods were, and how many times it has been done. There are more obviously but these are the most typical of incidents helping me to determine realistically what can be done to the deck. In order to get the optimum results, the wood should have been regularly cared for (at least every 2 years or annually if it was a clear product) prior to our companies services and not have a prior product containing a silicone, Teflon or linseed oil ingredient installed. In the real world of expectations the gray areas withstanding, we give according to what the customer is willing to pay for.

To address your poll Ken:

We want a finish that looks great and last for at least 2 years before needing our companies maintenance but is easy to clean with a percarbonate cleaner by the customer without damaging it in the interim. The product should not have to be stripped in the maintenance process and the color should match each time to avoid uneven or splotchy results.

We have arrived at a product as all who know us know, that meets with these stringent demands and so far the only disappointment was on a cedar deck that was damaged by a homeowner in whose lack of patience resulted in him pouring the concentrated deck cleaner straight from the bottle on it and then called us to fix the damage. The obvious damage was removed but the symptoms went deeper into the wood so as to keep it from penetrating and therefore it peeled in a couple of the places where the cleaner was poured on straight. That deck has since been serviced again this year and the problem areas sanded even further to get below the problem. The product still lasted 2 years. So, our disappointment was minor.

:taz:

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

What's so bad about linseed oil, I think linseed oil is the single most best ingredient in the coatings industry. All my favorite oil based products contain linseed oil - I drench wood with linseed oil to revive it.

[Mike Sullivan 15]

I like it too. Really enhances the wood grain. The only problem with linseed oil that I know of, is that it is a natural food source for mold/algae. Making the product higher maintenance than paraffinic oil based products like ReadySeal.

Most of the time when I apply a test stain spot for customers that want to see the product before chosing the color, they go with the Cabot's Natural Clear Solution. Ready Seal light brown some say looks too red, same with WTW and too orange/red for Sikkens.

Cabot's Clears don't last very long from my experience. Fade rapidly in less than a year. I prefer WTW or Ready Seal or Sikkens.

Weird question:

Sikkens does not make a clear coat for decks, too many of my customers don't like the orangey look of the Sikkens Natural and other reddish colors most sealers have.

As an attempt to make Cabot's last longer, can Sikkens car finish clear coat work on top of two coats of Cabot's Natural Clear Solution??????????

Beth/Rod or Ken Fenner, anyone tried this? Any suggestions?

[Mike Sullivan 15]

I have read that SealRx is a silicone based product and that it petrifies the wood. What else does anyone know about this? What exactly does silicone do to the wood? Petrifies meaning it accelerates the graying process?

There is a full page ad in a local direct mailer magazine called The Grapevine Magazine here in Greensboro, NC.

It says it's "Guaranteed for 25 Years!!!"

25 Year Transferable Warranty

I do not believe it. This has got to be false advertising.

See attached file.

[JFife 14]

Mike Sullivan:

...I'd definitely pass on your Sikkens clearcoat idea IMO. Try using Natural Oak or Butternut....browner, not as orange/red.

Ken, you've asked the million-dollar question that makes wood restoration difficult. The finishes that you can take care of easily, whether it be on a deck or multi-million dollar home, don't look like a million bucks. The finishes that will literally make the customers cry with glee they look so nice pose their own maintenance dilemmas, and will cost far more money to maintain in the long run. ......And what makes matter worse, is that if you are honest and tell customers up front all of these angles, you probably won't get the job at all. Sometimes it is almost a curse to have too much information to give.....you are better off just offering the product and telling them how wonderful it will be and going with it, rather than suggesting the pros and cons of different services.

[Mike Sullivan 15]

Jon, did you get that picture from UglyPeople.com? It is freaking me out.

[JFife 14]

Screw you Mike, that's me.

[plainpainter 217]

I agree with Jon Fife about offering too much information. I've read some pretty pollyanish dribble on this forum about educating the client and what not. I did exactly exactly the same to a potential house painting customer up the street from me - well she gave the job to somebody else, probably handed the estimate over to him, and gave her a lower price - and then proceeded to strip the house nearly entirely just like I said I would. But then he primed all this beautiful cedar siding clapboard with Cover-Stain oil primer. Sure a great interior oil product - but cheesy exterior product in my opinion. I gave all the info to the client - in the end she took the guy that told her what she wanted to hear. Tell the customer it will be great, provide a great service, make a balance between quality and estimate price to maintain a loyal customer base. If sikkens looks pretty - and the client knows about sikkens - give 'em sikkens, f 'em. Customers have no idea that brand reputation is often built upon prior quality products that no longer exist due to VOC laws - customers don't know about VOC laws. You tell 'em about quality degradation - they'll turn to the contractor that will tell them what they want to hear. I've seen it too many times.

[JFife 14]

Just kidding Mike, I wish I was that good-looking:)

I definitely agree to an extent plainpainter. You have to walk a very fine-line of teaching the customer that wants to learn, and force-feeding info to the person that just wants it done a certain way. For instance: with me, we offer a waterbase solution and an oilbase solution. There are some people that are just sworn to the idea that oil is better for anything--exterior paints, whatever. Once I get this feel from them, I no longer try and even proceed with a waterbase option. Not even included in the bid. I've talked/sold people into doing things against "their" better judgement before, and that's a tough battle. You not only have to exceed their expectations, you have to GREATLY exceed their expectations. That isn't always possible, and then you have a dissapointed customer that basically says, "yeah, I new I should have listened to my retired 85 yr old painter friend."

But realistically, if you have enough bids coming in, you should be able to weed out the people that tell you what they want you to come bid. There is a massive difference between getting a call, "I'd like for you to come and look at my deck....it looks aweful and we really need to get something done to it." And the call, "I'd like for you to come out and give me a price to chemically strip my deck, neutralize it, and keep it from getting all fuzzy. And I want you to bid to stain it with two coats of Cuprinol."

That second call, you should be able to weed out on the phone and either make it a guaranteed sell or pass without going out there. The people that come off like this because they think it'll help them get a better job are an easy sell. The people that come off like this because that is the kind of person they are (control freak) are bad customers. Two minutes into the call, you should have your answer.

[PressurePros 249]

Dan, you might be missing part of the equation. People will buy from those they like and more importantly from those that CLOSE THE SALE. How much of a broken record do I sound like? I say this over and over again and many cannot see the forest for the trees. I'm not singling you out, Dan just making more of a gneralized statement based upon what I read/hear. My thoughts are though are that you did the other guy a favor, educated the customer, didn't close them and then the next guy has work already done. All he had to do was smile and nod and ask them when they wanted to book the job.

You can be professional, you can have the nicest rig, you can be experienced, knowlegable and have the best portfolio around. Sometimes it's enough, sometimes it isn't. Without several closes, a knowlege of how to overcome objections and follow up perseverence, you can be spinning your wheels. On this board alone I would guess tens of thousands of dollars in missed opportunity and inflated marketing budget is wasted every year.

Three things will make you successful in a business and are a basis for the book I am writing.

1) Creative Marketing

2) Good Sales Ability

3) Knowing your job

Oops I am hijacking my own thread.

Yo Mike, if thats the best their "after" pictures can get, they can keep that garbage. Call Kevin and ask him to send you a picture of a deck with Seal RX that is 25 years old.... 20..... 10..... five? Three guesses why they can't?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

What's so bad about linseed oil, I think linseed oil is the single most best ingredient in the coatings industry. All my favorite oil based products contain linseed oil - I drench wood with linseed oil to revive it.

1. Linseed oil is a natural mildew food! Mildew loves this stuff and will grow like crazy on anything that has it. Some use a mildewcide additive and try to control the problem.
   
2. Too much linseed oil darkens the wood. This results in a less favorable color when another product is applied after it has been exposed to it.
   
3. Mineral oil is much better for exterior wood. Linseed oil which until the idea to use it on exterior wood was used primarily on fine wood furniture to darken the wood naturally and moisturize it before applying a varnish.
   
4. Contrary to popular belief, linseed oil does not revive old dried out wood but expands the fibers and hardens them. Once added to wood, it never cleans up as well and is more difficult to sand as well.

Regarding educating the customer, when it comes down to it, some people go for price and that is where education can not win. They are the most difficult to work with commonly and want the most for the least. I'd let it go and let the hungry ones have at it.

We have a limited menu of stain choices to make it easy to choose. For those who want more, we talk about them to the extent of what the customer is looking for out of a product. They often stop trying to 'color coordinate' and start looking at how long it will last and the maintenance they will have to do in the interim. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who think that the deck should look just as good 1, 2, 3+ years from now depending on the product claims and think that if it doesn't the contractor is to blame and take no responsibility in themselves to keep the deck clean in between times.

Here is one on the other side of the spectrum; a person we did one year only wanted a clear sealer installed, but after 18 months called us out because they wanted some work done on it again and we were surprised to find out they were personally holding us responsible for the deck turning gray and that we should do it again at our expense and go after the manufacturer to get our money back.

I have had others who were telling me from the very beginning that they wanted us to do the work and that we were the only ones who they thought were competent enough to do so. Price goes down on the paper and they flip, tell us that they would not pay even half that price and cannot justify it. Some times people don't know how to do business and think that by offering flattery it will get them a better deal. They don't think about that person having expenses too and a living to earn. Others will tell us right up front they don't have much money to spend and need a good deal in order to go with us. It's a shame to waste all that time, fuel and effort to see someone who should have had the consideration to begin with on the phone to tell us what they could afford before we wasted a trip on them and bumped someone else because they were in a hurry.

As Jon Fife said, one should know after a few minutes into the estimate which is most important to the customer. Sometimes though...it is a crap shoot!

Rod!~

[plainpainter 217]

The thing about linseed oil being food for mildew - I don't know, I've seen mildew grow fine on a totally synthetic alkyd coating - and it seems to like My California 2010 white latex trim paint as well - I think mildew grows on anything. But the one place I really don't see it growing on is my tung/linseed oil treated deck. Not to mention linseed oil lightens right up in the presence of sunlight - sorry to hijack.

I think in the end when it comes to deck coatings - I'd let your customer base vote what they want. I think however you find your customers - word of mouth - advertising - creative sales. You'll find that there will be a histogram, like the one at the top of this very page - where some like it pretty, some like it ok but really want it to last, and so forth. And then give 'em what they want. And people who call back after 18 months and expect you to do it for free and fight their war against the manufacturer - I suggest you laugh in their face for being such an imbecile. At least that's what I do. Honestly - the nerve of some people

[jnoden 15]

Another thing to look at is how much did you try to sell your service? There seems to be a fine line between giving the info that the customer needs and over selling your service. If you charge a considerable amount more than the previous bidder and you spent a good amount of time explaining your service and what you are going to do, you risk raising the customers expectations a little to high. Not that you delivered less than you promised but as you were talking their mental pic of their deck evolved in to a flawless piece of fine furniture. I try to give them what I call the mandatory basics (which covers a considerable amount) then ask what questions they have and spend more time on that. Ecspecially for jobs that are less then $500 where I would spend too much time talking during the estimate. I now count the time that I leave my house until I return for each estimate and add all these together with laboring time, equipment servicing time etc for total hrs at the end of the season. I am trying to find out what my real hourly wage is. I susspect it to be way less than I had originally thought.

[seymore 90]

I think in the end when it comes to deck coatings - I'd let your customer base vote what they want.

There is just no way you can let your customers choose any product they want.Then i'm expected to warranty the stain they choose?

Most of the stains that consumers have access like in HD or Lowes are junk anyway.If you find a product you can trust and consistantly depend on stick with it.I don't want to leave a job and have to worry about how the stain will hold up.I want to know how this stain will wear over time and what to expect till the next maintenace.

So find a quality deck stain and stick with it cause "consistant" stain quality is great for customer referals! :cool:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There is just no way you can let your customers choose any product they want.Then I'm expected to warranty the stain they choose?

Most of the stains that consumers have access like in HD or Lowe's are junk anyway.If you find a product you can trust and consistently depend on stick with it.I don't want to leave a job and have to worry about how the stain will hold up.I want to know how this stain will wear over time and what to expect till the next maintenance.

So find a quality deck stain and stick with it cause "consistent" stain quality is great for customer referrals! :cool:

I find this an excellent point. Our companies reputation is on the line and we all have taken chances at some point by offering things we have little knowledge or experience with. But what sets us apart is by learning about them and evaluation of them and then making choices that not only are beneficial for the customer but our business' as well.

Customers of quality know these things and will look for them in whom they hire. Many have done their own research and are looking for validation from companies who have experience with it. Some are just dead set on a certain product because of what they read in Consumer Reports. Little do they know of the VOC formation changes of recent that may have an impact on a product of choice and that is where we come in...with knowledge. We keep up-to-date and network which provides a benefit for the customer.

What ever happened to the selling point of being on the cutting edge and using the latest technology? In our field, time is the test and most of us know what works and what doesn't because we have seen it first hand and have dealt with the frustrations of a product failing despite following the label directions and trying to appease the customer. We have heard the claims of 10, 15, 20, +++ years of duration yet the products have only been on the market 6 months or more. The customer does not know about the accelerator booths that are used to test a product and give an approximation of duration determined by the results of the test. This is not actual but simulated. PLUS.. they (mfrs) don't have anyway of telling you what to expect when it comes time to do anything to it because they have not really experienced it themselves because of the preliminaries they rely upon to back up their claims.

We (Contractors) offer realistic expectations and don't offer the exorbitant, neglectful products that looks great at first but when they fail they do so with expensive repair or replacement needs because the chemicals needed to otherwise remove them are too dangerous to use in a residential environment and the liabilities are imminent as far as I am concerned.

Again, good point Shane.

Rod!~

[RCBill 14]

Well, to this old painter, matters of quality and professionalism are givens. The most important part of the process for me is estimating the job correctly. If I do that right and lose the job on price, I can live with it. If I overestimate and don't get it on price, I kick myself, and if I'm really high and get it, I feel guilty. If I underestimate, I take the hit, which means I'm not making the money I should be making. Then I should get a job with someone that knows what they're doing.

[plainpainter 217]

When I said - let the customer vote for the product they want - I meant within a reasonable universe of quality products. I use Muralo's lumberjacket deck stain, California Storm stains, Cabot's, just tried woodtux, etc. Now if a customer is sold on Sikkens Cetol SRD - why not just give 'em that product - it's not like it's behr. Or say if they want penofin. I am not saying penofin is as good as woodtux - but I know contractors who use only penofin products with good results. I have no experience with it - but again it ain't behr. And about warranties - I don't get involved with warranties. I have clients that will got the independent and choose a certain color from say cabots deck stain - again a fine product, maybe no where near woodtux - but whatever - it ain't behr, so I would just give 'em that - not to mention I don't want to do so much extra work with a customer as to shade they want if I made a substitution. If I apply Cabot's Cedar - and they don't like it - I don't even listen - I just ask for the check. Try doing that if you made a substitution of products and they blame you for not getting the color right. If you sell customers on yearly maintenance - any of these products will work fine. For customers who know your 'little' secret of deck coatings that last 2 and 3 years with products like woodtux - charge a premium, even though the cost is no different to you between woodtux or sikkens.

[RPetry 564]

I'm 100% with Shane on this. Customers should be hiring you for your expertise. Most know next to nothing about different stains and maintaining exterior wood.

With the exception of a few Cabot solid oil jobs, and a single WTW job last Nov., I only use RS stains. The reasons are many but the point is my co. is being hired to perform the best service possible, and the control of the strippers, cleaners, brighteners, and by far the most important product, stain to be used is mine. I would never allow any customer to dictate how I do business. Within reason, and with sometimes strong suggestions, they get to pick the color.

Turned down an 11K job early this year. The property management co. insisted a clear applied to cedar. Sure, I could of used clear RS and had a nice payday. But knowing it was the wrong stain to use was not worth the financial gain. My reputation and integrity is the company's most important asset and worth far more than a large job.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick, you're obviously spoiled - in the painting world, my customers tell me what paint they want, usually Ben Moore. I have some customers that ask me what they think is best. But in the end - if the customer wants it - I give it to them. I find my blood pressure goes up if I try to fight those wars - and even if everything goes right - the customer will always have something to complain about if you didn't use the products they chose. As about turning down an 11 grand job - that's just foolish - I go where the money is. And last I heard there isn't a squad of deck sealing police going around making sure your deck sealants last and last. In fact I have talked to customers who were on the receiving end of a patriarchal contractor who wouldn't do what they wanted - and they thought it was highly annoying. Customers want certain control. Heck if you are that uncomfortable - make 'em sign something saying they went against your advice. In the end we're contractors - and the customer should be able to choose - even is they choose stupidly - just let 'em know you think it's stupid and make 'em sign something. And I hardly doubt the outcome of applying clear deck sealer to a managed property will have any effect on your reputation. It's homeowners I think that have the loose lips.

[RPetry 564]

Dan,

I have never claimed to be a good businessman! One of my many faults is being stubborn, or what I prefer to think of as determined.

Rick, you're obviously spoiled...

That may very well be true. I have the luxury of turning down jobs if they do not meet my criteria. I will not apply a solid oil stain to untreated exterior wood. And unless it is a strong referral, and the price is right, I will not apply a maintenance solid oil stain at all. Why? I don't like them and its an irreversible decision. I take no pride and get no satisfaction applying solid stains. Forgive me but they look like paint. I like and appreciate the appearance and qualities of wood. I've started and owned a few small businesses in my life and have found that a large part of success is measured in self satisfaction, bottom line is only a part of the whole.

But in all honesty, in the vast majority of my initial estimates, customers are looking for solutions, not demanding a certain product. I patiently explain why I use RS, the long term benefits of a quality paraffinic oil stain, and the ease and lower costs of periodic maintenance. I truly believe in what I present, and most customers seem to appreciate the effort and honesty. Maybe its my presentation and attitude but in 5 yrs, the last 3 using RS almost exclusively, I have never had a potential customer ask me to use another stain. I close on ~ 65% of my estimates, but ~75% of my estimates come from referrals.

I do not clean concrete, wash houses, do gutters, or exterior painting. I restore exterior wood. At least from the perspective of my customers, I'm the expert. I know what is best. And I always have, and will continue to refuse a job if it is not up to my standards. I will not do inferior work for any price.

I can give a whole barrel load of reasons for turning down the 11K job. Certainly not concerned with the PM company, but having ~50 lawyers, doctors, and other professional residents seeing their wood fade out to gray after a year or so is not worth a few bucks. Who is responsible for spending all this $ on a fleeting improvement? You can bet the name Windsor WoodCare would be at the top of the list. A reputation for honest and quality work is priceless in my market. Not this company. Ever.

[plainpainter 217]

Rick, quick question - when you say you won't apply solid stain to untreated exterior wood, what do you mean by that? In the painting world - I routinely apply solid oil stain to shakes and clapboards - it is a self-priming product. I guess I will prime if it's a light color to lock in tannin bleed. I understand about turning down work if it will affect your reputation - but If I was a readyseal user, I would have been tempted to have used their clear product - and quality products that have a 'clear' sealer typically aren't true clears anyways - at least my clear sealer of choice has trans-oxide pigments and doesn't go grey after just one year. I guess business is real good if you turned that job down.

[RPetry 564]

Dan,

When I say untreated, I mean there is no solid stain already in/on the wood. In other words, bare wood or wood that has a semi trans stain that I can remove. As you already stated, I'm spoiled. I hate using my airless. I hate having to mix thinner to solid oils. I hate having to clean equipment and brushes with paint thinner. I hate the look of a solid stain on wood. I just do not care to do this kind of work.

I've never used clear RS straight on any wood. I keep a little in inventory to mix with other colors. As far as I know, it contains no pigment. It is not designed to use as is, only as a supplement to "tone down" other colors.

So if I use some other "clear" oil stain, which I would probably consider inferior, say maybe 18 months. Not enough. If you prep cedar correctly and apply enough pigmented paraffinic oil to the wood when the wood is dry, the stain should last at minimum 3 to 4 years before needing replenishment. I'm speaking of vertcal cedar, of whch the 11K job was, except for top end grain.

Its not that business is real good. I had a very bad August. But its that I believe in good business. I specialize and want to be known as a company that does superior work. I want customers that appreciate and are willing to pay for quality materials and work. I want to be known and viewed as a craftsman. Any schlep can get a PW, blast wood, and throw down some stain. I want to differentiate from that.

I want to give customers the best quality products and work, at a fair and honest price. I want customers to be amazed and totally pleased when I am done, and feel they have spent their dollars wisely. I want customers to tell their neighbors and friends what an honest, reliable, and great job that Windsor WoodCare did for their exterior wood. I want customers to call over and over again to continue maintaining their wood. I want customers to care about me and my little business, as much as I care about them. I want their wood to last forever, and look great. I want to be King of Exterior Wood in my market, and deserve the title. I honestly care and truly value each and every one of my customers. Its a symbiotic relationship, and in my small mind a key to any small business. Especially if you offer craftsmanship quality work.