Political thread jump start :)

[Celeste 341]

Hillary Clinton 'in to win' White House - Yahoo! News

Have at it guys - just keep it "nice" LOL

[Deck Guy 14]

"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance... for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crime. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded".

Abraham Lincoln

[RyanH 14]

Could you imagine a future president of this country that is a crack addict and is aloud to be because he/she is not breaking any laws.

See my comment about economic reasons for not doing them...they impair judgement and performance and most jobs would not allow you to be on them. Why don't more people show up to work drunk? Alcohol is legal. Why don't more people light up a cigar in their office? Because action has been taken at the local or professional level to prohibit these things. You miss my point...my goal is to take the millions we are dumping into the war for an outcome that will never be realize and redivert the efforts to remove the demand, not the supply. The way we are currently approaching this concept reminds me of hundreds of guys climbing all over a dam about to rupture patching with duct tape. And when more leaks spring up, we hire more guys and buy more duct tape to block the flow, never thinking to redirect the river. Police and law enforcement have been trapped in the paradigm of prevention for as long as I've been born. I've seen the devastation drugs has on families and I've personally known people who have been so far under that they were in a state worse than death. I also know people who have recovered, gone to treatment (often under the order of the courts), and brought themselvs out of the state and have become productive again. They teach their experiences to others, and in turn create new avenues for rehabilitation. The laws didn't keep them from obtaining drugs then, and they aren't what prevent them from turning back to drugs now. It is the knowledge they now have and the contrast of before / after that keeps them straight. Make all the laws and issue all the guns you want...you'll NEVER pass a law that limits man's thought and desire, and as long as that desire (demand) exist, again I say, you'll never win. You'll just keep patching holes in an inevitably broken system. But the whole "drug" thing is but one of the many many areas for improvement in our country, and low on my list of gripes with what is wrong with how we are approaching things.

[Jeff 232]

See my comment about economic reasons for not doing them...they impair judgement and performance and most jobs would not allow you to be on them. Why don't more people show up to work drunk? Alcohol is legal. Why don't more people light up a cigar in their office? Because action has been taken at the local or professional level to prohibit these things. You miss my point...my goal is to take the millions we are dumping into the war for an outcome that will never be realize and redivert the efforts to remove the demand, not the supply. The way we are currently approaching this concept reminds me of hundreds of guys climbing all over a dam about to rupture patching with duct tape. And when more leaks spring up, we hire more guys and buy more duct tape to block the flow, never thinking to redirect the river. Police and law enforcement have been trapped in the paradigm of prevention for as long as I've been born. I've seen the devastation drugs has on families and I've personally known people who have been so far under that they were in a state worse than death. I also know people who have recovered, gone to treatment (often under the order of the courts), and brought themselvs out of the state and have become productive again. They teach their experiences to others, and in turn create new avenues for rehabilitation. The laws didn't keep them from obtaining drugs then, and they aren't what prevent them from turning back to drugs now. It is the knowledge they now have and the contrast of before / after that keeps them straight. Make all the laws and issue all the guns you want...you'll NEVER pass a law that limits man's thought and desire, and as long as that desire (demand) exist, again I say, you'll never win. You'll just keep patching holes in an inevitably broken system. But the whole "drug" thing is but one of the many many areas for improvement in our country, and low on my list of gripes with what is wrong with how we are approaching things.

I think you & Hillary should run together, What a team LOL

[RyanH 14]

I think you & Hillary should run together, What a team LOL

How's that? Yin and Yang? I value personal freedom, choice, accountability, and responsbility. Hillary values turning the population into group of slaves dependent upon the government for their every need. That's like matter and anti-matter, only in government that doesn't result in explosions, it results in a endless impass.

[John T 744]

you'll NEVER pass a law that limits man's thought and desire, and as long as that desire (demand) exist, again I say, you'll never win. You'll just keep patching holes in an inevitably broken system. But the whole "drug" thing is but one of the many many areas for improvement in our country, and low on my list of gripes with what is wrong with how we are approaching things.

Ryan your views are cynical and I won't debate that because we are humans and we do alot of crazy things but once again your above quote is inaccurate. There's thousands of child molesters in this country. What your saying above is that you'll never pass a law that limits a mans thought and desires. Well....Should child molesters be aloud to run free?? No of course not. Laws are usually made because someone has done something bad and got caught.,,hence a law is now on the books. Drinking and driving was not always against the law but when people start to screw that up....it now becomes law. What your alluding to is to have a lawless society.

Just answer this question and I'm going to give it to you as if your in court as I have been many times in the past. You can't elaborate and give your opinion you must answer yes or no....Remember yes or no and no bending changing muttering your answer or tying to change this question that was asked of you in the court of law.. So here is the question:

Would you Ryan support legalizing drugs in your town..Yes or no.(any other answer will and can put you in contempt)..Judge now says MR. Ryan answer the question.....so?????????????????????????

[Jeff 232]

How's that? Yin and Yang? I value personal freedom, choice, accountability, and responsbility. Hillary values turning the population into group of slaves dependent upon the government for their every need. That's like matter and anti-matter, only in government that doesn't result in explosions, it results in a endless impass.

It was a joke dude. Althou I think you two would make an attractive couple running together and she doesnt mind if you cheat LOL

[PLD 14]

This upcoming 2008 election is going to exceed $1,000,000,000 BILLION......Thats just ridiculous and a shame

Maybe we could just clone GW & DC then we would have it made

VOTE REPUBLICAN in 2222

ONE BILLION $$$$ anybody see something wrong with this picture

I'll be damned. Jeff and I agree! Yes, it is a horrible waste. As will the multi million dollar inauguration party.

[PLD 14]

I don't mind EVERYBODY having a right to vote

I do. Only taxpayers and property owners. Welfare bums and the homeless have no say.

[PLD 14]

The problem with Ryan's plan is taxing drugs. It sounds like a good idea but basically what your doing there is you have to legalize it to tax it. Now what they do is they take all of your earnings if your selling drugs and throw you in jail. Besides legalizing drugs which is so morally wrong why make it easier for kids and young adults to have easier access to drugs because there legal. The war on drugs should never end.

The war on drugs is not even as efficient as prohibition was (remeber that farce?). Legalize drugs and "redeploy" our law enforcement elsewhere.

Philip

P.S. No, I do not use or condone the use of drugs other than alcohol (my drug of choice). Nor do I visit hookers. That does not change my opinion that others should be free to engage in behavior I personally consider stupid.

[PLD 14]

Ryan wants to make drugs legal so we can tax them and get the money from it....what kind of statement is that? Ryan, I respect your opinions dude, but you are way off-----WAY OFF. Make prostitution legal? WTH? Are you crazy?

Make that Ryan AND Philip. No, it's not craziness, it's just acceptance of reality. People buy/sell drugs. People buy/sell ***. And despite the billions spent to stop it, both are actually quite easy to get. In fact, I will bet you $100 that I can get off the plane *any* US city of your choice and purchase BOTH within 1/2 hour. So, how's that war on drugs working out for you?

You cannot stop either. Billions are being wasted in the effort, and countless law enforcement officers are killed trying. The fact that we keep trying to pound the square peg in the round hole is the crazyness.

[PLD 14]

We are so feminized now it's sickening. Whatever happend to guys like "the Marlboro Man"

Ummm... Lung cancer.

[PLD 14]

What your forgetting is that Alchohol was a legal drug before Prohibition came about...as far as I know Crack and Heroin where never a legal drug(Not counting anything that a doctor has prescribed such as canabus) and once you legalize them there is no turning back...like alchohol

Not correct. With very few exceptions, All drugs were legal prior to being criminalized and many were in widespread use. prior to 1914 cocaine sodas were an energy drink (i.e. Coca Cola). Opium was sold at Sears. Marijauna was criminalized in 1937. More recently extacy was sold legally until identified and added to the federal controlled substance register.

I would grant you this that Marijuana should be the one drug that possibly should be legalized but if you know alot about that drug the bet here is to keep that one illegal also except under doctors care.

I do know quite a bit about marijuana, it effects, etc. Outside making you lazy and stupid, it has virtually no impact on humans. There is more reason to criminalize alcohol than marijauna.

[PLD 14]

How much do you think is currently being spent to fight the war in our streets? It seems to me the violence stems from the scarcity of supply, the high cost of the product, and the determination not to return to jail. Know why so many gang wars still exist? Arguments over drug "turfs." Who has the "say so" to deal their drugs and where. How about fighting the addiction and desire to start? Currently we're doing nothing to diminish the demand, only the supply. How about working to reduce the demand, then the supply will go elsewhere. Amazing how simple that concept is, aint it?

Yep. Gangsters used to smuggle and kill over alcohol sales. It was legalized and they are no longer interested because the profit motive is gone. Now they smuggle and kill over cocaine. Legalize that, and they will find a new illicit high-profit product. It is just human nature.

[Jeff 232]

I'll be damned. Jeff and I agree! Yes, it is a horrible waste. As will the multi million dollar inauguration party.

There should be a cap and all running should get free air time, its our airwaves, free airtime will make it so all canidates are on an even planning field

Why do we have to waste so much

[John T 744]

Phillip---I stood corrected a few post back before you pointed it out.I'm just waiting to see if Ryan can answer my yes or no question like the way one is asked in court..RYAN?????????????????

[PLD 14]

As for drugs being legal at one time such as cocaine..yes I stand corrected but when drugs became a recreational drug such as Heroin it was somewhere in that time that they became illegal.(I'm not a history major so I don't know the answer when).

1910-1930. As various undesirable groups (mexicans, irish, chinese) began to show up on major pop centers, each brought their drugs of choice. Creating a reason to jail and deport them was a viewed as necessary and good. Drugs were on such method. Drug criminalization was generally a white mans response to put pressure unwanted immigrants. The fantasy that drugs were legalized as a matter of public health was a fictional tale spun long ago to help hide the fact that we were actively seeking methods to deprive men of their rights based on race/ethnicity.

As for history, I would suggest that you take a real hard look at the truths behind prohibition and the reality of the drug war today. We fought alcohol for the same reasons (rampant social destruction), with the same results (none), and the same costs (lots of dead cops). The mafia has been replaced by organized gangs and 90 proof by crack, but the situation is no different.

Oh, and I would add that your fellow LE officers out there fighting alcohol also viewed the evils of alcohol much as you do drugs now. Based on their first hand experience, they too thought they were fighting the good fight.

Now if you have some interesting idea's on changing some drug laws then I'm all ears but for legalization..never!! Can't have my kids and people I know go to the local candy store when there of age and buy a bag of cocaine..Not in this country...Go to columbia if you want that

Ok, let's not get started with the absurd and fantastic metaphors.... Can your child go to a candy store and buy Jack Daniels and a pack of Camels? We are talking about adults engaging in adult behaviors.

Now if your looking to change the laws in a different way to deal with drugs then that I'm all ears but to

No, you are not all ears. We are precisely "looking to change the laws in a different way to deal with drugs", and you are turning a deaf ear.

[PLD 14]

Phillip---I stood corrected a few post back before you pointed it out.I'm just waiting to see if Ryan can answer my yes or no question like the way one is asked in court..RYAN?????????????????

John,

Your question is fairly innocent. But you cannot frame the question as you have (no explanations, no dialog)and actually expect reasonable people to answer you in a dialog. Y/N questions are asked like that in court to set up a trap. Read up on "false dichotomy" Kind of like this one:

Yes or No, John: Do you still beat up hookers after you force them to have *** in thge back of your patrol car? YES OR NO.

An no, they do not garner a contempt charge if phrased like mine.

[PLD 14]

Would you Ryan support legalizing drugs in your town..Yes or no.(any other answer will and can put you in contempt).

Yes.

Now, since were are not in a courtroom attempting to make a finding of fact, but rather in a public forum having a debate, I do get to offer an opinion. And here it is:

Yes. And your town, and Celeste's town, and Adrians town, and Don's town, and... Provided that the sale and use is restricted to adults over the age of 18. And provided that it is sold in commonly accepted places that deal in adult products (like liquor stores) and not absurd locations like Chuck-E-cheese.

[PLD 14]

RyanH,

Re: drugs and prostitution. Let's say your "decriminalization" idea came to fruition. I can see the benefits you are mentioning, and I'm sure they be positive/negatives that come about that nobody would dream of. I'm curious to know what affects, in your opinion, these changes would have to cities in relation to RE values, zoning, etc. I could see these things being disasterous in that regard.

Here is what you just said. There may or may not be negative consequences that nobody can predict. There may or may not be unintended consequences that nobody can predict. These consequences could be severe, therefore we should do nothing.

I'm sorry, but I dont follow that logc.

And please explain to me how the legazliation of drugs would have a negative impact on property values and zoning?

[PLD 14]

I will say this loud and clear. It applies to legislators, law enforcement, and judges:

Preventing men from hurting themselves or going to hell is an illegitimate use of governmental authority. Attempts to prohibit self destructive behavior are an inapproriate use of power.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I am going way out of the box here and many will not agree with me on it but I should hope that it will be considered for the benefit of the many instead of the few.

Quit the war on drugs and send the junkies all they want in a sectioned off area and let them fend for themselves. Let them burn out there and leave the rest of us to deal with the more important issues of the country. Once you legalize drugs for use in this regard, you literally take away the market in which the smugglers and dealers thrive on and I mean thrive. Eliminate the demand by saturating the market. Reverse psychology!

Some may think it cruel a proposition but everything else being implemented isn't working. Someone will always find a way to circumvent the system, usually with help from the inside. Increasing the border security and taking away our freedoms to combat this and other problems only strangles the county and its populace.

In addition...if the junkies don't have the will power to get help in getting over their addictions then leave them be. It's their choice. Who made us the custodians of their lives? They are individuals who for whatever reason have made the decision to do what they do, and until they change their minds, there is no hope for them. It is up to the person to initiate change. In the meantime, if someone is caught with illegal drugs, instead of arresting them, send them to the junkie sector! Let them learn to live off the land and make their own choices. Yes, they can make their own choices. They just need to find the strength of will to do it. Rehab won't do it if they are not ready or want it.

The number of rehabilitated who relapse is far larger than those who stay clean. Especially in the presence of other users who make it easy to slip. EX: This is like trying to quit smoking in a room full of other smokers. I tried and failed until I removed myself from the smoking environment. Only then did I succeed in quitting smoking.

Buffalo News - Drug criminals are liable for their crimes, not society

Drug Rehab and Treatment Centers

ScienceDaily: Genetics Plays Role In Relapse Of Illicit Drug-seeking Behavior

Arizona Illicit Drugs Statistics

drug users relapse statistics - Google Search

These sites are just a few that show the fallacy of trying to rehabilitate people who don't want it. They beg to help people with abuse problems, but needless to say, unless the person is willing, it is a waste of time to force someone to become rehabilitated.

No, I am not a cruel and heartless person but a practical one and a pragmatist. One must look at all options. Even those that are not in the publicly popular segment.

Rod!~

[John T 744]

Phillip,

I hear your points and disagree with just about all of them. When you make Drugs legal you make it a hundred times easier for people to get them hence alot more drug addicts . Yes we do have some vices that are legal and NO no one is expecting this country to be perfect.

You want a lawless society then keep it in your town where people can by drugs, Hang out with prostitutes, smoke crack cocaine on every street corner and maybe commit some murders since there wont be any laws on that..in your town. Thats what you want then run for something and see what you can do to make all of that legal. Lets see how many people in your area support your ticket of legalizing Heroin and crack cocaine etc. Good luck to you and if it ever becomes legal in your town I'll do my best to keep my family far far away from that lawless society. Why don't you take it a step futher and start a Militia so you don't have to listen to "OUR" Goven't and get rid of all the Cops in your area..Make it a I can do anything I want in my town kind of place. Yes Rapes and Murders along with many other crimes will skyrocket in your town..but so what..just smoke some Crack and not give a rats ass because You'll be so dam high.

As for my town I will always do my best to keep drugs off the streets and to never legalize them where kids(OK 18 yr olds but you get my point) will never have the luxury to go to the local Deli to buy a soda pop and a bag of china white heroin..like in your town. If you ever ran on these beliefs if you got 1 percent of your towns votes I'd be shocked.

Still even though I think your beliefs are way way out there...it doesn't make you a bad guy. Look at River Phoenix the actor who came from a commune where his parents had *** in front of them and some kids were also invited to join in. Do I believe that is right..Hell no. Still I loved River the actor and if I knew him personally I could have been tight with a guy like that..besides the way he was brought up.

[Celeste 341]

Quit the war on drugs and send the junkies all they want in a sectioned off area and let them fend for themselves. Let them burn out there and leave the rest of us to deal with the more important issues of the country.

Send them to Iraq!!!!!! We can bring our decent young men & women home and let them defend our country from home. Turn all of those silly countries over there into our litterbox for druggies, crack whores, murderers and perverts.

Celeste

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Send them to Iraq!!!!!! We can bring our decent young men & women home and let them defend our country from home. Turn all of those silly countries over there into our litterbox for druggies, crack whores, murderers and perverts.

Celeste

There ya go, now were coming up with some alternatives!

Rod!~

[JFife 14]

Here is what you just said. There may or may not be negative consequences that nobody can predict. There may or may not be unintended consequences that nobody can predict. These consequences could be severe, therefore we should do nothing.

I'm sorry, but I dont follow that logc.

And please explain to me how the legazliation of drugs would have a negative impact on property values and zoning?

Doolittle:

I always appreciate RyanH's well thought-out responses, and I was truly interested in his input on this. It was not a "set up" question.....I'd just like an opinion with reasoning. Here's my first thought:

You own a Subway in a stripcenter with three other stores: Liquor Store, Payday Pawn, and Check in to Cash. All three are adult places I could see wanting to get their hands on drug sales. So you, as the Subway owner---how do you feel about this, and its affect on your biz, property value?? I think the result would be negative, in many ways. That is why I'm asking the question--to get RyanH's input (or yours) on how this would affect RE, etc.