Political thread jump start :)

[Celeste 341]

Hillary Clinton 'in to win' White House - Yahoo! News

Have at it guys - just keep it "nice" LOL

[HotShot 34]

I'm with you John...I have fun too....:)

It doesn't matter if you buy into the God stuff or not, you still have a conscience and the Bible says that your conscience bears witness with what's right and wrong...unless it becomes seared from all the sin...like the Jeffrey Dahmer types that don't think it's wrong to kill and eat people...

[John T 744]

I'm with you John...I have fun too....:)

It doesn't matter if you buy into the God stuff or not, you still have a conscience and the Bible says that your conscience bears witness with what's right and wrong...unless it becomes seared from all the sin...like the Jeffrey Dahmer types that don't think it's wrong to kill and eat people...

If thats what the Bible says it sounds good to me. When I was young my parents tried to get me to read a bible geared for kids with alot of comic book pictures in it. I remember this thick book and the pictures were nice looking..but..somehow I probably migrated over to my HULK comic books and read those instead and daydreamed....Maybe when I get older one day I'll take another look at the Bible..preferably the one with the pictures again:)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Just for laughs: One guy has been drinking beer and is pretty toasted. He comes along another guy who is lit on maryjane and bumps into the guy deliberately. He wants to start a fight. The guy who is lit is calm and cool with the world and has no reason to want to ruin a good buzz and says "excuse me". The drunk guy gets up in his face and starts to threaten to kick his butt for bumping into him. The lit guy is trying to be civil and keep things cool when the whole ruckus draws a few people and a couple of the lit guys friends. The drunk guy starts pushing the lit guy. The lit guy knows that a guy who is drunk is slower and lacks stamina. Then he asks his friends if they can go get something to eat after he is done kicking the drunk guys butt cause he has got the munchies real bad. He leaves the drunk guy heaving his guts out on the pavement and is off to Ben and Jerry's.

From a true story and no, that wasn't me either.

Rod!~

[Deck Guy 14]

Hey Phillip,

As for me living in a fictious world I guess you can say that to throw a jab at me. Yea I've seen underage girls living in squater under an abandon building shooting up thru there private parts who had lesions larger then any scab you most likely ever had(This was in the 80's when I was NYPD). Yea I seen a drug induce father blow half his head off in front of his 8 yr old son and there puppy dog licking up the brains(actually got there right after the father did this). If you want to call that a fictitous world..ok..rather it be fake then reality. Drugs kill and cause people to kill. In a perfect world yes they should legalize drugs so the country can keep them as clean as possible but this is not a perfect world and this country will be go right down the crapper if they ever legalize recreational hadcore drugs.

John,

I respect that you have seen some sh*t...really. But is it possible that what you have seen has given you a twisted view of the way things really are. Like an abused wife who believes all women are treated that way, because that's the way her father treated her mother? Life isn't really as crappy as you believe it is, and people are generally good at heart.

I also don't understand your obsession with "crack cocaine." Crack is just pre-freebased cocaine. I learned how to do it (freebase) in the '80's when you had to do it yourself. Among my friends at the time, there are a now a union tradesman, trucking company owner, golf equipment company owner and myself. None of us are addicts, and all of us are family men with happy marriages. Kinda breaks the stereotype, huh? It is possible to have an adventurous youth, but come away as a man.

The increased penalties and fines for crack vs. cocaine are probably just reflective of the racial demographics of users.

BTW, I have been randomly tested for drugs for the past 20+ years, so I can say, and prove, that my support for legalization is not based on current use or needs.

You probably don't know anybody who smokes pot because of who you are. Your neighbor wouldn't dare take a few hits on his deck with you there, but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy a good buzz now and again. I know a few very good people, with responsible jobs who take a toke now and again, and no-one suffers for it. They just don't feel they have to hide it from me, since I don't crusade against it.

I missed the part in the bible about drugs, could somebody find that for me?

[Jeff 232]

John,

I respect that you have seen some sh*t...really. But is it possible that what you have seen has given you a twisted view of the way things really are. Like an abused wife who believes all women are treated that way, because that's the way her father treated her mother? Life isn't really as crappy as you believe it is, and people are generally good at heart.

I also don't understand your obsession with "crack cocaine." Crack is just pre-freebased cocaine. I learned how to do it (freebase) in the '80's when you had to do it yourself. Among my friends at the time, there are a now a union tradesman, trucking company owner, golf equipment company owner and myself. None of us are addicts, and all of us are family men with happy marriages. Kinda breaks the stereotype, huh? It is possible to have an adventurous youth, but come away as a man.

The increased penalties and fines for crack vs. cocaine are probably just reflective of the racial demographics of users.

BTW, I have been randomly tested for drugs for the past 20+ years, so I can say, and prove, that my support for legalization is not based on current use or needs.

You probably don't know anybody who smokes pot because of who you are. Your neighbor wouldn't dare take a few hits on his deck with you there, but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy a good buzz now and again. I know a few very good people, with responsible jobs who take a toke now and again, and no-one suffers for it. They just don't feel they have to hide it from me, since I don't crusade against it.

I missed the part in the bible about drugs, could somebody find that for me?

Larry, you dont know crack cocaine. Coke you can do tons and maybe not do it off and on for years its no problem. Crack cocaine is different, you can do it off and on , then it all of a sudden grabs you and it wont let go. They are 2 different monsters coke & crack, yes made from the same plant, but 2 different highs and 2 different addictions. I 've known many coke heads that can maintain a "regular life" I know of no crack heads that can maintain crap after it really grabs hold. I to have known one man that was a millionaire, I knew a State politician, I knew a couple cops, one was the chief of police in a city of a couple hundred thousand, I've known at least a couple other people that had everything and made great money. Althou some of them I'm sure are straght now, 2 are dead and there are at least 9 guys & girls I knew that are dead, these were basically good people from good familys, that really didnt do anything else wrong other than drug use and they are dead because of crack. My town was filled with burnouts, it was the thing to do for many. When crack hit my area, I saw good people go down the tubes. Until you've experienced crack for a period of time and went through the jonesin you dont know crack and how it can change pretty nice people, its some sick s**t

CRACK KILLS and it should be kept illegal

When it comes to drugs Larry, I think that johns view isnt twisted its just REAL. I think the 2 best groups to ask about drugs such as crack, meth & H is either a cop or an addict. For those who want to legallize take a ride with a cop or vice cop in the city, I dont believe you'll want these people anywhere within a million miles buying the s**t a the store

[JFife 14]

Scott Millen:

Re: Where in the Bible is drugs specified as being "wrong".

*Treat your body as a holy temple

*Respect/follow man's laws (somewhere in Romans, don't have a bible w/ me)

*Flee from the appearance of Evil

*If it offends your brother to eat meat, don't eat meat.

Just a few things off the top of my head that would lead me to believe Jesus, his Apostles, and the 1st Century church wouldn't do drugs/want us to do drugs.

[Deck Guy 14]

Jeff, crack is what was once called freebased cocaine. That was a method used to further purify what was bought on the street. Crack is made from coke, and it's not rocket science, or necessarily a dangerous procedure. With crack, the work is just done for you. A smart addict would make his own, but then again, he wouldn't be in that situation if he was smart.

Luckily, I was pretty much too cheap to give in to the temptation. I know people find it highly addictive, and believe me, I know why. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either. You and I share a few things in common.

I just don't see everyone as some potential addict. Some people have limits and know them. We're not all helpless in the face of temptation. I'm truly sorry for those are.

My last post on this...I respect everyones opinion on this, we just see things differently. Back to Hillary bashing!

[John T 744]

Larry,

I know people that do drugs as we all do.

You need to see like Jeff is saying what is really going on in the real "World" and not in your friends cozy environment. You need to see babies born with a crack cocaine habit. You need to see mothers and fathers turning into skeletons who also turn evil and will stab you straight in the eye for that dollar bill in your pocket. This is the reality of it and if you legalize it you will se that magnify 100 fold. You need to get out in the streets and do your do dilligence. Check for yourself and get out of that cozy bubble you live in and search out the answer. Drugs are an epidemic!! Now legalizing that epidemic..well you might as well tag The Proud USA as the modern day..HELL!! Quick story..back in the eighties I get a call for a 1 yr old baby on a window ledge. I show up and the door is locked. A few cops get there and we break down the door. The apt is full of needles and its quite obvious that there is residue of crack cocaine among other drugs. The baby is still playing on the ledge..a couple of inches she goes down a 2 stories and probably dies a horrendous death. We grab the baby who's diaper is dripping out crap. Meanwhile the mother shows up with a bag of groceries..she probably weighs maybe at most 70lbs. End result we take the baby from her and she gets arrested. She pleads with us to not take her baby. My response was..well I can't repeat it here but she lost her baby.

That Larry is the reality of it and not your friends snorting coke once in awhile..its the addicted ones who are in the millions that is the problem. There is the reality and if you make all the drugs legal watch how fast some of your friends become addicted because since most of them are mostly law abiding citizens they now can take drugs and still be law abiding citizens...but now they get hooked...and you get robbed. That is..the reality. Don't believe it then go and search out the truth instead of sitting behind a laptop and saying something that you can't back up.

That aside no problem we can agree to disagree..and maybe I am a little biased but when you see stuff like above you can get that way. I still dont judge people on drugs because I know a few including a bunch of cousins that I have..who own businesses and are forever going in and out of drug rehab....I love these guys regardless..and I aint perfect either.

[Jeff 232]

Jeff, crack is what was once called freebased cocaine. That was a method used to further purify what was bought on the street. Crack is made from coke, and it's not rocket science, or necessarily a dangerous procedure. With crack, the work is just done for you. A smart addict would make his own, but then again, he wouldn't be in that situation if he was smart.

Luckily, I was pretty much too cheap to give in to the temptation. I know people find it highly addictive, and believe me, I know why. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either. You and I share a few things in common.

I just don't see everyone as some potential addict. Some people have limits and know them. We're not all helpless in the face of temptation. I'm truly sorry for those are.

My last post on this...I respect everyones opinion on this, we just see things differently. Back to Hillary bashing!

I dont see everyone as potential addicts either, but there's a lot of addicts & exadicts out ther, Im just saying offer it legal in some way will just grow the problem , not lesson it.

I too respect everybodies opinion, still thnk you all are crazy and I'm the only normal one here LOL

I'm done on the drug thing also good idea

Hillary!!!!!! Think she was ever good in bed when she was younger? But really I hope Hillary doesnt get the office, I think she'll cause to much problems, she's tarnished by the past.

The sad thing is I really think there will be to much partisan crap no matter who get in. We need a JFK, Reagan, Clinton somebody thats good with motivating people, but with out say the baggage of Clinton. We as Americans want to be lead by greatness I just dont know who can do it

[John T 744]

The guys I'm leaning towards for the 08 presidency are in no particular order, Rudy Guiliani, John McCain and probably my favorite Jon Edwards. Obama would make an excellent VP for now but I think he is just to fresh under the collar to be the President at this time. Oh yea Ryan has my vote if he gets off the legalizing drug position.lol J/K

[PLD 14]

Maybe you dont know addicts! They will drive down your street with a pocket full of money and go to the STORE and get their stuff, they will drive home and do it and when it wears off they will go down your street (high) and go to the STORE and get some more, they will go home and do it. When they run out they will drive down your street towards the store knowing they have NO money to go to the STORE and they possibly will turn around and break into your house, possibly hurt your family or worse and get what money they can and then drive back down your street and go to the STORE get more drugs and go home and get high.

1. The fact that they are driving to/through my neighboorhood presumes that I live near the only store. What about the store in their neighborhood?

2. If they live close to my store they ALREADY live in my neighborhood. And since you can get drugs easily, they already live there NOW.

3. Junkies steal because coke is $100/gram and they are broke. At $5/oz it's not a bank buster. In fact, most people would die/self-destruct before exhausting their resources.

4. DUI endangers the lives of others and for that reason, it is (and should remain) a crime. People convicted of DUI will be prosecuted.

[Deck Guy 14]

We all would have some fun together! I was actually called a conservative (I think for the first time ever) tonight! I laughed out loud!

I have no clue as to the election coming up. You can only count on the fact that I won't be voting for Hillary. Let's see who turns up in the meantime. Really, there is always a dark horse who shows up to change things. I hope there are a few. I'm surprised at John's picks, but then, maybe he's just yanking my chain.

[PLD 14]

Then move to Amsterdam..cya...J/K I'm just making points and I know you never said legalize murder. Yes the war on drugs is a losing one and there should be some alternatives but to legalize them in MHO is a death sentence to this country

Don't take my comments to mean that I think drugs are a good thing. But, I do support legalizing them for a number of reasons:

1. I believe that it is a man has a God given right to Life, Liberty, and Property (L/L/P). Since a mans "owns" his life, he is free to achieve success, abject failure, and even self-destruction (suicide).

2. I believe that it is not a legitimate function of government to influence #1, unless one man attempts take another mans L/L/P via force of fraud.

3. Eliminating drugs from our society is a noble goal, but interdiction (war on drugs) is an abject failure. It is time to try another tactic.(*)

4. If a junkie dies from self-destruction, I could not care less. If one of our law enforcement brothers falls in the line of duty, I cry. If that officer dies in the battle to save that (or any) junkie, it is an attrocity.

Philip

(*) I find this very ironic. 3 years in Iraq, marginal success and the masses scream that it is WAY past time for a change. Redeploy, timetable, make a plan, billions spent, ad nauseum... And anyone who says "stay the course" is branded a fool. Yet, after 60 years of this pathetic war on drugs "stay the course" is the mantra of the masses. Which is it?!?

[RyanH 14]

Phillip---I stood corrected a few post back before you pointed it out.I'm just waiting to see if Ryan can answer my yes or no question like the way one is asked in court..RYAN?????????????????

Sorry John...my wife went into early labor yesterday morning and gave birth to our son. I haven't kept up with this thread. When I left it was 4 pages...now 8??? Holy crap what did I start! I'll have to go back and re-read the yes/no question as I don't remember what the question was. And that's not a political dodge :)

[PLD 14]

Any dealing of drugs to underage people throw the book at them.

I like what they do now. When I guy makes his money thru the drug trade law enforcement looks to take all he has and when thats done they distribute some of the assets such as the cash to places that can use it such as building parks etc. I love reading that a drug dealer and his posse got the book thrown at them and there 5 million dollar house went to auction and the money went towards helping the homeless..now that is progress.

I have a real problem with that aspect of it. If seizing the assets is a valuable tool, go to court and seize them properly. Then, have the funds go to the general fund for redistribution by the elected. This crap about seizure without due process, failure to return assets once charges are dropped, and drug seizure money being controlled and spent by the LE that seized it is just as criminal as the means through which it was created.

[Deck Guy 14]

Larry,

You need to see like Jeff is saying what is really going on in the real "World" and not in your friends cozy environment.

Okay, I said I was done, but that's a bit presumtuous. I do live in the real "world." Or is the "real world," New York??? I have lived in at least 7 states, worked in at least 30 states, and lived overseas twice! It's hard to count after a few Rolling Rocks!

Maybe I was a bit subtle about it, but when I said that Jeff and I shared a few things in common, I hope that at least he understood what I meant. I certainly didn't learn what I know from "google." There was never anything "cozy" going on for me. Again, we just see it differently.

And Ryan...CONGRATS!!! That's totally cool!

[John T 744]

Congrats Ryan on your newborn. Thats what life is all about. This here is just having fun/

Phillip--the seizure laws are based on when one is proven guilty in the court of law. This could be criminal or civil(OJ Simpson). Don't get yourself all worked up in thinking the Gov't or the Police just come in and take what they want. Its called due process. The beauty of this country is no matter what your always presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Thats the Law and what a GREAT law that is...but if these drug dealers are found guilty then goodbye to what they have and who cares about that. They sell to kids, anyone actually who is willing to spend there hard earned money on there drugs. I also love the 3 strikes(Felony Convictions) and your out. I would like to see that toughened up to if there is a child molestion felony conviction then 2 strikes and your out.I'd say one but we all know that one could be an abberation and possibly a mistake but 2...cya.

and if you like to be a recreational drug user thats your thing. I wouldn;t hire you if I knew you use illegal drugs. IF you become a crack infested drug addict you should be taken off the streets because all rational is now lost in your soul. I don't neccessarily condone recreational drug use because that should be your choice but for the drug dealers I would throw the book at them and not pity them one bit.

[Deck Guy 14]

Congrats Ryan on your newborn. Thats what life is all about. This here is just having fun/

Don't get yourself all worked up in thinking the Gov't or the Police just come in and take what they want. Its called due process. The beauty of this country is no matter what your always presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

Not been paying attention to our gov't lately, eh? The Bill of Rights doesn't apply during a TIME OF WAR!!! Due Process??? HA, HA, HA!!

[seymore 90]

my wife went into early labor yesterday morning and gave birth to our son. :)

Congrats on the baby boy Ryan!

Ryan Jr.?? :)

[RyanH 14]

Okay, time to clear the air. First stance...I think anything that causes someone to become addicted to it's use is bad. That "thing" can be drugs, cigs, porn, ***, snickers, or coffee. When you lose the capacity to control your own motives, you have lost to some other motivation. In a nutshell, everything is good in moderation so long as it does not affect the life and liberty of someone else.

As for how this debate got started, I am against a government establishing and enforcing a law where the primary target is an individual whose actions only affect themselves. When I look at drugs, for the most part the person most affect by the self destructive tendency is the user. One might argue that the drug "trade" causes wars in our streets, children to be born or left into impoverished and abusive situations, or people to act more dangerously than they would off drugs. In my opinion, I belive the violence associated with the drug trade stems from the illegal nature. Like I've said many times, you don't aggressively protect yourself when there is no possibility of a negative consequence. Basically, the drug trade is a violent one because there are aggressors: dealers and police. The aggression may come from one or both parties and can be mixed within the parties (dealer vs. dealer, for example), but that's an issue of human behavior, not a direct result of the drugs themselves.

Does drug use destroy familes? Yes. But that question in itself is a straw man, set up as an intention to knock down the argument for legalizing. I know of three different, unrelated couples who currently are in abusive relationships. In all three, the abuse happens when one of the members is drunk. One might argue that while hard drugs are more dangerous, alchohol is more readily available and that's why it outweighs the statistics in abuse. One can extrapolate on that argument and say that if you combine the extremely dangerous nature of hard drugs with the easy access of alcohol, you are creating a firestorm with unknown reprocussions. I say this: out of the millions of people in our country, how many--of legal ability--have abstained from alcohol abuse because of their understanding of the consequences? I'm betting a dizzying majority of our population.

For the hard questions:

Do I still want drugs legalized? Short answer--I don't want drugs legalized, whether the qualifier is "still" or "did you ever want them...." I want to see them decrmininalized, there is a difference. It's very easy to try and destroy the argument by setting it up in a manner that it destroys innoence, such as "getting a hit of extasy with your happy meal." The absurdity of that juxtaposition doesn't warrant argument, but here it is anyway. Whatever argument you currently use for any other substance that is known to cause an alteration in control over personal actions, apply the limitations to the drugs. You don't make this stuff freely available by marketing it, but you do remove the seriously negative implications associated with conviction. In this manner, you are still minimizing exposure, but you are taking away the incentive for people to use violent means to obtain or protect it. That's the first step. The next step would be to raise awaremess and support for demonizing the substance. Offer reahabilition for people who want it. Currently, if you are a drug addict and need assistance in overcoming your addiction, you are effectviely admitting to using them. There is no penalty for attending an AA meeting, but as long as it is a *criminal* act to be under the influence, you are going to seriously reduce the number of people looking to cure themselves.

Would I vote for drugs to be legalized in my town? Again, not "legalized." For obvious reasons, I would prefer them to not be made available for brown bagging at the gas station. But I also don't want a user to endanger others by speeding away from a cop because he has some drugs in his trunk. Start off by allowing a "what happens in your house stays in your house" policy as it relates to drugs. We apply the same limitations we do for alcohol or certain presecription drugs: no operating heavy equipment, no shooting up at the bowling alley, etc. When I was in Jamaica they had this same policy. I had easy access to pretty much any drug I wanted, and I wouldn't have been arrested for it. But when cops walked by a group who were working out the details of a drug deal, a "find a more appropriate place for that" statment from the cops was all that was needed for the guys to disband with few words. No running away, no cops tackling someone and putting a knee in their back for posession, no fear of guns being drawn by either party, just amicable results. Parents told their kids about the evils of drugs and treated abusers as lowlifes, there was no allure to using drugs. Hell, I think I would have a harder time telling parents they need to be accountable that I would have convincing people that we should stop filling our prisons with drug offenders.

I don't know if I answered the direct questions or not...probably not as I'm going on about 50 hours of frequently interrupted naps, but I hope I made my point. I would prefer to see *** offenders, thieves, wreckless drivers, etc. occupying our prisons than someone who only bought a joint because they wanted a little fun that night.

Surely someone wants to discuss matters of fiscal importance, right? Is everything hinging on drug use??

And John T., you're right. This thread is all in fun. Cheers!

[RyanH 14]

Congrats on the baby boy Ryan!

Ryan Jr.?? :)

Thanks. No, not a Jr., although the wife really wanted it. I don't think I've done enough important things in life yet to warrant naming another life after myself :)

http://www.holbird.com

[seymore 90]

Thanks. No, not a Jr., although the wife really wanted it. I don't think I've done enough important things in life yet to warrant naming another life after myself :)

http://www.holbird.com

Aww Lil Ethan looks like he's been thru a lot catching up on sleep before he keeps mommy and daddy awake :D

21.5" you might have you a little basketball player :cool:

Hope mommy is doing ok and catching up on sleep too!

[Celeste 341]

What a beautiful son you have Ryan - Congratulations to you and your wife! Might as well get used to taking that back seat because your wife just delivered her new obsession :) Who knew the love of her life would be short and bald! LOL

Celeste

PS - Vote for Ryan!!

[Jeff 232]

Thanks. No, not a Jr., although the wife really wanted it. I don't think I've done enough important things in life yet to warrant naming another life after myself :)

http://www.holbird.com

WOW!!!!!!!!! Congrats to your family. Handsome little guy.

Now get off the computer and help your wife. Is this your 1st. ENJOY

JL

[Deck Guy 14]

Nice pic! Is that red hair??