Political thread jump start :)

[Celeste 341]

Hillary Clinton 'in to win' White House - Yahoo! News

Have at it guys - just keep it "nice" LOL

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Congratulations Ryan! What a beautiful baby boy!

Beth

[RyanH 14]

Nice pic! Is that red hair??

I really really really really hope it's not red. I think the white balance on my camera was off when that was taken as it appears to be more blonde now. Personally I hope it darkens up. This Verizon internet phone has been great...I brought my laptop but the hospital doesn't have wi-fi...this has been a very easy ordeal for me while they have been resting.

Babies are cool! And like every other father's kid, mine is the coolest! I have a shirt on order...

"Worlds Greatest 6,523,156,290 th Dad!"

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Okay, time to clear the air. First stance...I think anything that causes someone to become addicted to it's use is bad. That "thing" can be drugs, cigs, porn, ***, snickers, or coffee. When you lose the capacity to control your own motives, you have lost to some other motivation. In a nutshell, everything is good in moderation so long as it does not affect the life and liberty of someone else.

As for how this debate got started, I am against a government establishing and enforcing a law where the primary target is an individual whose actions only affect themselves. When I look at drugs, for the most part the person most affect by the self destructive tendency is the user. One might argue that the drug "trade" causes wars in our streets, children to be born or left into impoverished and abusive situations, or people to act more dangerously than they would off drugs. In my opinion, I belive the violence associated with the drug trade stems from the illegal nature. Like I've said many times, you don't aggressively protect yourself when there is no possibility of a negative consequence. Basically, the drug trade is a violent one because there are aggressors: dealers and police. The aggression may come from one or both parties and can be mixed within the parties (dealer vs. dealer, for example), but that's an issue of human behavior, not a direct result of the drugs themselves.

Does drug use destroy familes? Yes. But that question in itself is a straw man, set up as an intention to knock down the argument for legalizing. I know of three different, unrelated couples who currently are in abusive relationships. In all three, the abuse happens when one of the members is drunk. One might argue that while hard drugs are more dangerous, alchohol is more readily available and that's why it outweighs the statistics in abuse. One can extrapolate on that argument and say that if you combine the extremely dangerous nature of hard drugs with the easy access of alcohol, you are creating a firestorm with unknown reprocussions. I say this: out of the millions of people in our country, how many--of legal ability--have abstained from alcohol abuse because of their understanding of the consequences? I'm betting a dizzying majority of our population.

For the hard questions:

Do I still want drugs legalized? Short answer--I don't want drugs legalized, whether the qualifier is "still" or "did you ever want them...." I want to see them decrmininalized, there is a difference. It's very easy to try and destroy the argument by setting it up in a manner that it destroys innoence, such as "getting a hit of extasy with your happy meal." The absurdity of that juxtaposition doesn't warrant argument, but here it is anyway. Whatever argument you currently use for any other substance that is known to cause an alteration in control over personal actions, apply the limitations to the drugs. You don't make this stuff freely available by marketing it, but you do remove the seriously negative implications associated with conviction. In this manner, you are still minimizing exposure, but you are taking away the incentive for people to use violent means to obtain or protect it. That's the first step. The next step would be to raise awaremess and support for demonizing the substance. Offer reahabilition for people who want it. Currently, if you are a drug addict and need assistance in overcoming your addiction, you are effectviely admitting to using them. There is no penalty for attending an AA meeting, but as long as it is a *criminal* act to be under the influence, you are going to seriously reduce the number of people looking to cure themselves.

Would I vote for drugs to be legalized in my town? Again, not "legalized." For obvious reasons, I would prefer them to not be made available for brown bagging at the gas station. But I also don't want a user to endanger others by speeding away from a cop because he has some drugs in his trunk. Start off by allowing a "what happens in your house stays in your house" policy as it relates to drugs. We apply the same limitations we do for alcohol or certain presecription drugs: no operating heavy equipment, no shooting up at the bowling alley, etc. When I was in Jamaica they had this same policy. I had easy access to pretty much any drug I wanted, and I wouldn't have been arrested for it. But when cops walked by a group who were working out the details of a drug deal, a "find a more appropriate place for that" statment from the cops was all that was needed for the guys to disband with few words. No running away, no cops tackling someone and putting a knee in their back for posession, no fear of guns being drawn by either party, just amicable results. Parents told their kids about the evils of drugs and treated abusers as lowlifes, there was no allure to using drugs. Hell, I think I would have a harder time telling parents they need to be accountable that I would have convincing people that we should stop filling our prisons with drug offenders.

I don't know if I answered the direct questions or not...probably not as I'm going on about 50 hours of frequently interrupted naps, but I hope I made my point. I would prefer to see *** offenders, thieves, wreckless drivers, etc. occupying our prisons than someone who only bought a joint because they wanted a little fun that night.

Surely someone wants to discuss matters of fiscal importance, right? Is everything hinging on drug use??

And John T., you're right. This thread is all in fun. Cheers!

Go get some sleep Ryan and thanks for your perspective. This is what I was trying to get at but your point is what I was trying to make...take away the lure of it. You have a very diplomatic way of speaking and is level headed.

People experiment, indulge, abuse and lose control to drugs but it is a personal choice whether in the company of friends or alone, it is a choice. Drug dealers, have been known to purposefully introduce drugs in order to create a dependent. If that type of market were eliminated, this would go away.

Your Jamaica relation was what I had in Nassau. People would walk up to you and ask you point blank. I just said no thank you and they left.

The only thing I don't agree with is demonizing drugs. Education on what they do and the dependency they create is paramount. Children learn well in the early years about what is harmful and later in life with the other postulations you made in place would make it something more of a nuisance instead of the taboo glamor it now has and easier to turn down.

A lot more needs to change in this countries way of thinking in order to get anywhere with drugs or society in general. But that's another subject.

Rod!~

[Celeste 341]

The only thing I don't agree with is demonizing drugs. Education on what they do and the dependency they create is paramount. Children learn well in the early years about what is harmful and later in life with the other postulations you made in place would make it something more of a nuisance instead of the taboo glamor it now has and easier to turn down.

Cigarettes are a prime example. My kids RAG on me about smoking cigarettes. That whole commercial on MTV...truth.com....where they show wild ads indicating how many people die from smoking as compared to other things. Seems like this would be the prime place to start with drugs.

And it is the illicitness of things that make them more desirable....drugs, prostitution, underage drinking & smoking, other people's property....the list goes on.

Celeste

[Jeff 232]

I SEEeeE CoLORs

Thanks a lot guys, see what you all did now . I just pawned my 8GPM for $650, Then I got lost trying to find the right SECTOR, I ended up in the Sector for Homeless, gay, republican, illegal mexicans for Jesus with Attitudes. OOPS got to go, found the DOLLAR TREE STORE for JUNKIES, It was in the F Sector........FUNKIE JUNKIE SECTOR LOL

IT'S A YOUR FAULT

LiFE IS GOOD

ME

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have no guilt here nor accept blame for anothers actions.

:taz:

Funny you should say that you are seeing colors. I ended up firing a guy who was faking sick to get out of work and saying just that! My thoughts were (what was he seeing before?...monochrome?)

Rod!~

[HotShot 34]

Thanks. No, not a Jr., although the wife really wanted it. I don't think I've done enough important things in life yet to warrant naming another life after myself :)

http://www.holbird.com

aahhhhh....Congrats bro..that's awesome! :)

[Jeff 232]

I have no guilt here nor accept blame for anothers actions.

:taz:

Funny you should say that you are seeing colors. I ended up firing a guy who was faking sick to get out of work and saying just that! My thoughts were (what was he seeing before?...monochrome?)

Rod!~

Tell him to call me I'll give him directions to the F Sector

Its all your fault Rod, It cant be mine its a sickness

LOL

[PLD 14]

Don't get yourself all worked up in thinking the Gov't or the Police just come in and take what they want. Its called due process. The beauty of this country is no matter what your always presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Thats the Law and what a GREAT law that is...

John, I beg to differ HUGELY. Money believed to be proceeds from drug sales is regularly seized without due process. And I am not alone in my concerns about it:

"We are certainly not the first court to be enormously troubled by the government's increasing and virtually unchecked use of the civil forfeiture statutes and the disregard for due process that is buried in those statutes." - Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime

American Civil Liberties Union : Statement of Rep. Henry Hyde, "Forfeiture Reform: Now, or Never?"

Columns: Police are addicted to lure of easy money

[RyanH 14]

John, I beg to differ HUGELY. Money believed to be proceeds from drug sales is regularly seized without due process. And I am not alone in my concerns about it:

"We are certainly not the first court to be enormously troubled by the government's increasing and virtually unchecked use of the civil forfeiture statutes and the disregard for due process that is buried in those statutes." - Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals

Federal Appeals Court: Driving With Money is a Crime

American Civil Liberties Union : Statement of Rep. Henry Hyde, "Forfeiture Reform: Now, or Never?"

Columns: Police are addicted to lure of easy money

And don't forget the rules about carrying around more than $8k cash on you (or somewhere around that limit). Government should have no say in how much cash you can carry at any given time. I guess one can make the argument that the paper currency belongs to the treasury, and that having large quantities like that may increase the risk that it is destroyed, but I doubt that's the case. Yeah, I'd clean up some of these stupid government interferences. Hilary would probably say "nobody needs that much cash, so they shouldn't be carrying it. Besides, we (government) can do more that money than he can." Shiver me timbers if that woman gets any more authority than she already has.

[Celeste 341]

Short Version of what's below in NC Law :) We tax people on their illegal substances! LOL

105-113.107. Excise tax on unauthorized substances.(a)Controlled Substances. - An excise tax is levied on controlled substances possessed, either actually or constructively, by dealers at the following rates:

(1) At the rate of forty cents (40�) for each gram, or fraction thereof, of harvested marijuana stems and stalks that have been separated from and are not mixed with any other parts of the marijuana plant.

(1a) At the rate of three dollars and fifty cents ($3.50) for each gram, or fraction thereof, of marijuana, other than separated stems and stalks taxed under subdivision (1) of this section.

(1b) At the rate of fifty dollars ($50.00) for each gram, or fraction thereof, of cocaine.

(2) At the rate of two hundred dollars ($200.00) for each gram, or fraction thereof, of any other controlled substance that is sold by weight.

(2a) At the rate of fifty dollars ($50.00) for each 10 dosage units, or fraction thereof, of any low- street-value drug that is not sold by weight.

(3) At the rate of two hundred dollars ($200.00) for each 10 dosage units, or fraction thereof, of any other controlled substance that is not sold by weight.

(a1) Weight. - A quantity of marijuana or other controlled substance is measured by the weight of the substance whether pure or impure or dilute, or by dosage units when the substance is not sold by weight, in the dealer's possession. A quantity of a controlled substance is dilute if it consists of a detectable quantity of pure controlled substance and any excipients or fillers.

(b) Illicit Spirituous Liquor. - An excise tax is levied on illicit spirituous liquor possessed by a dealer at the following rates:

(1) At the rate of thirty-one dollars and seventy cents ($31.70) for each gallon, or fraction thereof, of illicit spirituous liquor sold by the drink.

(2) At the rate of twelve dollars and eighty cents ($12.80) for each gallon, or fraction thereof, of illicit spirituous liquor not sold by the drink.

© Mash. - An excise tax is levied on mash possessed by a dealer at the rate of one dollar and twenty-eight cents ($1.28) for each gallon or fraction thereof.

(d) Illicit Mixed Beverages. - A tax is levied on illicit mixed beverages sold by a dealer at the rate of twenty dollars ($20.00) on each four liters and a proportional sum on lesser quantities.

(1989, c. 772, s. 1; 1995, c. 340, s. 1; 1997-292, s. 1; 1998-218, s. 1.)

[RyanH 14]

Celeste,

That's something else that really gripes me. People can't even manufacture their own liquor for personal consumption because the government wants to tax it. Talk about a limitation on the mind. As a chemical dork, fermented and distilled libations are my "cup of tea." I can go to the store and buy apples, grapes, rice, potatoes, etc., and nobody raises an eyebrow. I can throw them in the garden and they can rot and nobody says a thing. But let me put them in a large bin and keep them in the basement for a few months, all of a sudden someone cries "mash" and I would get taxed $1.28 for that?? That's one the few things that actually sucks about America. When I was in Germany, people were actually proud about their individual endeavors of making and improving their own personal brews. They invited me to their homes to test out their own unique styles of wines, champagnes, beers, brandies, etc. Here, you get fined. Gripe me, I"m guessing the big liquor distributors have had some say in that somewhere along the lines. Can anyone point out a case where making your own wine harms anyone else or limits their freedoms?? Oh well, I guess NC could be worse...in GA O.S. is illegal. Hmmm. (OS: Clinton's most infamous contribution to what minimal legacy he leaves behind)

[John T 744]

OK I can't argue that our Gov't is perfect. Alot of things should be changed and that is why you want the right people in to make those changes. Still by far we have the best Gov't in the world. There is a reason why we are the most successful Country in the world and our Constitution and Gov't should get some of that credit.

I will never support legalizing hardcore drugs. It unethical and wrong. Cigarettes are legal now so they should stay that way. Alcholol is more of a problem because that can kill may innocent people in a matter of seconds. No it should never be made illegal but I do like the laws where if your caught with a DWI and there are cirmcumstances involved(Such as a second conviction) you lose your car to the county with jurisdiction and then your car gets auctioned off. Some places here this is done on your first conviction which that one is debatable but once again most DWI accidents the drunk never had a conviction so do you wait for them to kill someone??

Get the people in place to support your cause is the only way you can get things done..and maybe that person could be a Ryan here or someone along those lines....As for me I'd rather be the king maker and get a Ryan in so I never have any strings pulling at me:)

[JFife 14]

Celeste,

Oh well, I guess NC could be worse...in GA O.S. is illegal. Hmmm. (OS: Clinton's most infamous contribution to what minimal legacy he leaves behind)

....That sucks! (no pun intended):)

[Celeste 341]

Oh well, I guess NC could be worse...in GA O.S. is illegal. Hmmm. (OS: Clinton's most infamous contribution to what minimal legacy he leaves behind)

I'm fairly certain that it's illegal here as well. And, during other marital activities, evidently we're only allowed certain positions and the shades have to be drawn as well!!

Celeste

[RyanH 14]

.....we're only allowed certain positions and the shades have to be drawn as well!!

Celeste

There's a definite reason for that. If I ever make it to a RT I'll have to tell my funny story of, um, a guy I know, and what happened to me--I mean him--at a certain Disney resort. :photo:

[PLD 14]

Still by far we have the best Gov't in the world.

And my neighbor is smartest kid on the short bus... One must be diligent to measure themselves against what they could be, and not what they are not.

There is a reason why we are the most successful Country in the world

Yes, people used to be free to succeed or fall flat. People today are terrified of freedom. True fFreedom means working without a net and dealing with people who make you uncomfortable.

our Constitution and Gov't should get some of that credit.

Constitution, yes. Govt, NO!. Our country thrives inspite of it's government, not because of it.