Sealer Composition

[jnoden 15]

Since i have a fair amount of time on my hands until spring I figured i would post another question I have been curious about.

I always hear about the different types of oils that various sealer companies utilize in their stains. I also hear about the benefits of finely grounded transoxide pigments found in good stains. I never hear anything about the ingredient in a stain that actually seals moisture out. Is it the oil that repels moisture or is there something else? (speaking of oil based stains only). Does every company use the same ingredient/ chemical. Is it found more in some stains than others? If it is just the oil in the stain well than i guess water bourne stains use something else that generally last longer.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Since i have a fair amount of time on my hands until spring I figured i would post another question I have been curious about.

I always hear about the different types of oils that various sealer companies utilize in their stains. I also hear about the benefits of finely grounded transoxide pigments found in good stains. I never hear anything about the ingredient in a stain that actually seals moisture out. Is it the oil that repels moisture or is there something else? (speaking of oil based stains only). Does every company use the same ingredient/ chemical. Is it found more in some stains than others? If it is just the oil in the stain well than i guess water bourne stains use something else that generally last longer.

This is a good question and one that I would ask in the same position.

Oils: Natural and alkyds; These serve a couple of functions. 1 is to help replenish the wood with a moisturizer to help it keep from drying out and cracking. 2 is to aid in the absorption due to oils inherent nature to adhere to surfaces it comes into contact with. Most oils are drying oils in that once they penetrate and are absorbed into the wood, dry in place providing a measure of water repellent-ability that exists between oil and water, their ions repel each other.

Pigments such as you mentioned in addition to clay and earth along with other oxide pigments need a carrier to keep them in suspension until application. This is usually accomplished by either solvents or phenols (alcohols in water based/bourne) that evaporate once liberated upon application.

In addition to pigments there are binders and solids content that enhance the pigments UV protection capabilities, duration and the stains overall penetration and holding abilities.

All of these components work together to provide moisture repelling or dispersing. Repelling is done with waxes (hydrocarbons, paraffins or paraffinic). This causes the water to bead up on a surface. Oils and alkyds are designed to make water disperse by spreading out. This helps to dry it faster without the drawbacks of beading which in direct sunlight creates its own demise by focusing sunlight like a magnifying glass and burning itself off.

These are in laymens terms the best way I can explain it. I hope that others with better command of technical terminology would chime in here and help take up where I may have fallen short.

Rod!~

[jnoden 15]

Good information Rod. Im going to start calling you Britanica.

So it is the parifin that shields moisture. I thought that Parafin was the oil although I have heard of Parafin wax if that is what it is. I was curious because customers really seem to like the water beading properties that some stains have yet other sealers claim to sheet off water. Water repellency is a sealer property that i do not hear much about even when manufacturers explain their sealers composition.

This past year when I would do the splash test on various decks it seemed like most absorbed water even though the stain was still intact. I guess the pigment always lasts longer than the water repellent in the sealer.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Good post. I still have not figured out the difference, or even if there is a difference, between paraffin oil and paraffinic oil. And further, what if any relationship is there to paraffin wax? Its very confusing.

All I know is I use a lot of it or something like it!

Jnoden,

The Forest Products Lab has some information you may find helpful. See:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/willi95a.pdf

Its worth a bookmark.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick is right...that is a MUST bookmark kind of site!

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Paraffin and paraffinic are of the same nature only Paraffinic (oil) is a derivative containing wax while the other is a compound (paraffin wax). Many clear sealers and toners use these as water repellants and/or sealants.

RS uses a paraffinic oils for example

Olympic and Thompsons used paraffin wax with solvents as carriers.

Water absorption is the point all are trying to avoid. Reason being is that it carries with it any and all environmental materials small enough into the woods substrate and there in starts the process of biodegradation. This promotes the growth of fungus, mildew and other microbial organisms which begin to break down the cellulose by consuming other components of the wood depending upon the extractive content. This is something that acts like a natural poison to biological attackers. Mother nature breaks down the lignin holding the cellulose together and depletes any extractives which help to preserve it. Exposure to minerals in soil accelerate this process by adding a catalyst in which spawns higher organisms to coexist and breakdown the wood.

By keeping water out, the process is deterred. Adding oils to the wood keeps it from drying out. In water based/borne products bind to the cellulose structure creating a barrier and use water as a carrier but with either or both a fungicide and mildewcide in the formulation to prevent any unwanted growth as a result of water introduction. The water evaporation is enhanced by the alcohols in the formulation and as drying takes place, the water either is channeled inwards and out through uncoated areas or back to the surface being coated.

Some even use acetones and ketones as carriers to lower the VOC content instead of solvents like hydrocarbons, mineral spirits, xylene, stoddard solvent etc.

Some oils are natural food for mildew and without a mildewcide in the formulation, the mildew will proliferate rapidly. Linseed and tung oils are most commonly used but can also darken the wood depending on the grade of oil used.

Any other ???'s

Rod!~

[jnoden 15]

I wonder what Woodtux uses? Probably a secret. I am going to check this year to see how its water repellency is from decks I sealed last year with Woodtux.

So the oil eventually dries leaving the wax dispersed thoughout the wood. I would imagine that as the wax wears off the surface of the wood, the water beading stops. That is parafinic stains anyway.

[RPetry 564]

Rod,

Another stellar exposition on stains and wood. Nice job.

Paraffin and paraffinic are of the same nature only Paraffinic (oil) is a derivative containing wax while the other is a compound (paraffin wax). Many clear sealers and toners use these as water repellants and/or sealants.

RS uses a paraffinic oils for example

This still has me confused. I mean I use a lot of RS, and have for the past 3 yrs. I've read and been advised that due to the paraffinic oil in the product, the stain remains in a liquid state in the substrate after application. Thus the oil prevents moisture from penetrating. Now the kicker.

I find no characteristic of what I know of "wax" in or about the stain. When I experience what I think is wax, its like a candle. A solid to be sure, but malleable. After weeks of exposure to air and warm temps, RS will kind of harden into a solid on my Decker 5'er. But there's nothing "waxy" about it!

jnoden wrote:

I would imagine that as the wax wears off the surface of the wood, the water beading stops. That is parafinic stains anyway.

Great supposition and is confirmed by my experience. Immediately after application, RS beads water. Seen it a bunch of times with summer showers. But after time, and I do not know how long. water kind of "sheens" on the surface of the wood.

Is the generic term "wax" not necessarily what a non chemist thinks is wax? I don't know. Where's Peirce or Russell?

When I think about it, why would anyone care?

Funny, you can tell when Northern US woodies are getting restless. Can't work yet, spring schedule is filling up, the bank account is dwindling, and too much time on our hands. If I recall, the great BLEECH debate started about this time last year. That was a classic and belongs in The Grime Scene Thread Hall of Fame.

[plainpainter 217]

I find that all oil based coatings bead water initially - I sprayed 2 solid coats of Cabot's oil solid stain on my sister's fence - and the tops of the posts beaded water for a week or so before the stain finally cured.

[PressurePros 249]

One of the disadvantages of a non-drying oil is the slope of its failure curve. From the day you apply a non drying parafinic coating, oils are being leeched from the surface. The is why Ready Seal is not a sealer, its a penetrating oil. According to some people in the know with whom I have spoken, Ready Seal actually violates a law on product labeling but that is not relevant here. This immediate leeching (washing away) every time it rains is what Rick is describing. The oil is being repelled away 200 mils below the surface but the surface itself is being exposed and the coating is being sacrificed. It happens with all sealers, whats different is the rate at which it happens.

The best of all worlds is to have a deep penetrating oil, coupled with drying oils and agents. Thats the premise behind Wood Rich.

The quality of a sealer is a balancing act of drying time, resin solid content, amount and quality of both pigmentation and mildewcide. With all due respect to Ready Seal, it is an inexpensive product that is way over-hyped in my opinion.

[seymore 90]

The Forest Products Lab has some information you may find helpful. See:

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/willi95a.pdf

Its worth a bookmark

HEY Rick see the quote below our friend MR ED.'s WRCLA :D

If I recall, the great BLEECH debate started about this time last year. That was a classic and belongs in The Grime Scene Thread Hall of Fame.

Care of wood decks

The bright color of the wood on

weathered decks can be restored

by application of commercial

products (called deck cleaners,

brighteners, or restorers). These

products do not add color to the

deck, but remove mildew and dirt,

allowing the natural color of the

wood to show. If all the natural

color has been leached from the

surface, the wood will appear

silver gray following cleaning.

These commercial cleaning

products may remove the weathered

wood surface; therefore,

care should be exercised to avoid

damaging the surface of the

wood. Aggressive scrubbing with

a caustic cleaner can remove

wood from the surface, particularly

on softer wood such as

western redcedar. Mildew can

also can be removed by luiquid

household bleach. Dilute the

bleach with 3 parts water and add

some detergent. CAUTION: Do

not use a liquid detergent or a

detergent containing ammonia.

Ammonia reacts with bleach to

form a toxic gas. The bleach

solution should be rinsed from the

deck with water. If the deck is to

be finished after cleaning, allow

1 to 2 days drying time.

[RPetry 564]

Shane,

Hah! Nice find. Ed Burke is a bit inexperienced in actually doing any exterior wood work, but I still believe his heart is in the right place.

Ken,

With all due respect to Ready Seal, it is an inexpensive product that is way over-hyped in my opinion.

Oh man, you have just stirred the proverbial hornet's nest. I'll back off for a while but responses are sure to be entertaining. This could supercede the fond, infamous BLEECH thread. Godzilla vrs. Mothra, Ali fightin' Fraiser, Yin and Yang.

[seymore 90]

Shane,

Hah! Nice find. Ed Burke is a bit inexperienced in actually doing any exterior wood work, but I still believe his heart is in the right place.

Yeah well when i get advise to SAND rough sawn cedar which i would never ever think of doing in my life!I think they need to worry about producing quality cedar fence pickets and plant some more trees! :D

[James 625]

Ken, I'm really glad your opinion doesn't carry any weight with people who know what they are doing. Most of what you say is not factual or you can't back with fact. You try to portray something your not an expert with sealers. Now that you hawk Bakers Grey away on your website and have your relationship with Shane your opinions are biased. Your opinions are always slanted aganist Ready Seal. I can go back to all your post with Ready seal in them and there biased. I'm really tired of it because you don't have the experience to back up what you say.

Now it's time to venture to the garden web to talk about over hyped stuff. This i'm very good at. I was healing fine and had to RAD this I mean read.I needed a spark Thanks!!!!

[RPetry 564]

Jim,

I needed a spark Thanks!!!!

Welcome back to the land of the living. Give 'em hell.

[PressurePros 249]

Guys, facts are facts. Jim this ain't rocket science. I am capable of exploring, reading, and applying knowlege in the field. All of these I do extensively. I love Baker's and think it has it applications. If I didn't I woudn't sell it. It is a product very similar to Ready Seal. But these products have their limitations. Ready Seal is Ready Seal. Its an oil with a little pigment in it. There is not any great science going on. Not that extensive science makes the perfect product of course.

Jim, you complained all season about being behind because of inclement weather. A product that needs 12% mositure content, how viable here in the northeast? I give you kudos for being a Ready Seal expert but I stand my ground. Being a wood restoration expert does not neccessarily make one a good businessman. I will place my knowlege of wood sealers and the science behind them (of which there is some but again, we aren't talking about atom splitting here) against anyone. I also have hundreds of hours in the field sweating behind a sprayer, burning of skin with strippers and breathing in enough acid to probably have miner's lungs. How much more, Jim before I am considered on par with having a conversation of someone of your greatness? ;-)

To finalize, because I see where this is going and I probably should just get out while the going is good.. Tell me what is in your favorite sealer that makes it such a superior product. When you are done, explain to me then how it to make it viable for use in real world conditions in a company that is looking to expand service not be a paid hobbyist.. for a company that cannot afford constant reschedules waiting for a moisture meter to test out?

Ready Seal and Pierce may be awesome, cannot judge either of them but when I see snake oil being peddled as nectar it's a little hard to swallow. If I am missing the boat and the product has transformed into something of which I am not aware I will print in a separate post a retraction and apology.

Edit: I have recommended Ready Seal to many retail customers, it is a good product for them to apply. This is not a vendetta against ready seal, its not an infommercial for Bakers (which I make exactly $2 per gallon on) This is an attack against misinformation.

I mean no disrespect Rick and I know your love and passion for wood but this is a business. Per our conversation the other day, you know my stance on that. I'm in business to make money. Look, every sealer.. every single one of them has flaws. If there was a perfect one size-fits-all product, it would probably have been invented by now. You know my opinion, I know the opinion of the RS crowd and they differ. No foul.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This thread was move to be reviewed and to take out the personal attacks. Look guys, this is February. Cabin fever time. We go through this every year. This is what I am saying, please, let's all remain professional. We don't need to bash products to discuss them, we don't need to trash each other as professionals in order to have a conversation. If we represent the "best" in the industry, then let's all act like it. That's all I am saying. We are not wild about handing out infractions....we would rather not have to so please....take a deep breath....

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This thread has been reinstated largely intact. Opinions have been spoken and although some may not agree they are there in full for all to consider.

This thread is not about which sealer is better but about compositions of different sealers and what makes them do what they do. This is particularly important for all concerned to be involved in because the insight obtained helps gain a better understanding of them, their suitability and under what conditions. Let's focus on that...the basic makeup of a sealer and talk about the ingredients.

This is a chance for all of you to really show your stuff. We can accomplish this without the partisan standings on different products.

One further note, remember, this site has been SEO'd (Search Engine Optimized) which means that in looking for anyone in particular here, a prospect can find you and read what you post.

Is it worth what it may cost you? Post responsibly.

Back on topic.

Quote:

"Paraffin and paraffinic are of the same nature only Paraffinic (oil) is a derivative containing wax while the other is a compound (paraffin wax). Many clear sealers and toners use these as water repellants and/or sealants.

RS uses a paraffinic oils for example"

This still has me confused. I mean I use a lot of RS, and have for the past 3 yrs. I've read and been advised that due to the paraffinic oil in the product, the stain remains in a liquid state in the substrate after application. Thus the oil prevents moisture from penetrating.

Paraffinic oil does not dry...at least not without a dryer incorporated into the formula. Also, Paraffinic oil is a derivative of paraffin so while they may be similar in name the composition is different in the fact that the oil has negligible amounts of wax in it. I am not familiar with the process used to bring about paraffinic oil much less paraffin wax. The wax used in candles is of a different grade and contains more aliphatic hydrocarbons than the wax we find in sealers. The stains we find on decks from candles is also due to the other ingredients found in them such as added scents, citronella, colors etc.. which leave a stain when it gets into wood and reacts with the cellulose, tannins, extractives, resins et al.

Now the kicker. I find no characteristic of what I know of "wax" in or about the stain. When I experience what I think is wax, its like a candle. A solid to be sure, but malleable. After weeks of exposure to air and warm temps, RS will kind of harden into a solid on my Decker 5'er. But there's nothing "waxy" about it!

True, it is the other components of the sealer that are left once the carrier has evaporated. I am not familiar with the exact solvent they use but I do know that once it is gone, the rest will not go back into suspension. This is evident by the plastic pails sucking themselves inwards and buckling. From what I have been told and this is important in understanding storage of any sealer is that if the container has not been fluoridated, the solvent will find its way out of the pail by a process called subduction which in laymens terms means it goes through the plastic. :headspin:

jnoden wrote:

Quote:

"I would imagine that as the wax wears off the surface of the wood, the water beading stops. That is parafinic stains anyway. "

Great supposition and is confirmed by my experience. Immediately after application, RS beads water. Seen it a bunch of times with summer showers. But after time, and I do not know how long. water kind of "sheens" on the surface of the wood.

This is the oil. From my information, it is rumored that RS contains mineral oil. When exposed to water, it behaves like a wax causing cohesion (beading) till it has penetrated deeply enough to no longer create this effect and the water will disperse instead of beading. Curing is important to the sealers performance and most importantly to us who apply it in how fast it does this. For solids, too fast causes cracking and separation in addition to shallow penetration. Too slow and it can spread and thin from gravity and heat exposure. For semi-transparents and toners, the curing time is not as critical. But, when we are trying to get it done before a rain comes we sweat a little. There are dryers that can be added to a sealer to aid in its curing process. In high humidity conditions is a good example. The sealer can take almost twice as long to cure resulting in a job that fails quicker because we tell our clients to wait 24 hours when in fact it could be 36-48 hours for it to cure under these conditions.

Now on the other end of that, if the conditions are dry and hot, then it can dry too fast which is called flashing. Again, this is shallow penetration and leads to undesirable appearances. This can be slowed by adding some oil (*same as in the product already or compatible) or in the case of water based/borne products, you can actually wet the wood with water to cool.

Is the generic term "wax" not necessarily what a non chemist thinks is wax? I don't know. Where's Peirce or Russell?

I have come to respect Russell's knowledge on this subject. Being a contractor prior to his current business gave him insights into the development of his products. But I would not want to skew the thread in anyones favor but I think he could add some really interesting reading here should he feel inclined.

When I think about it, why would anyone care?

Probably because you do, and others should. It is part of what we need to understand in order to be responsible for not only our work but to help us back up what we say we can do. Knowing the potentials and functions gives us the ability to do our jobs better than those who don't...don't you think?

Funny, you can tell when Northern US woodies are getting restless. Can't work yet, spring schedule is filling up, the bank account is dwindling, and too much time on our hands. If I recall, the great BLEECH debate started about this time last year. That was a classic and belongs in The Grime Scene Thread Hall of Fame.

Thanks for the kudos Rick...and thanks for trying to keep this thread in line.

Rod!~

[Proclean 14]

Man, you guys/gals.

Just use Sealmaxx. You never have to stain again. Exclusively guranteed for 25 years:)

On a side note, this thread does contain some great info.

[Jarrod 22]

Now THERE'S a can of worms!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Man, you guys/gals.

Just use Sealmaxx. You never have to stain again. Exclusively guranteed for 25 years:)

On a side note, this thread does contain some great info.

Environmental accelerators are not completely reliable. The product hasn't been around for that long to justify such a claim and I wouldn't use it anyway due to the changes in homeownership. God help anyone trying to strip it off!!! This goes into the debate of paint -vs- stain category.

Back on topic....

Again, this is not about which sealer is best or which to use, that is up to the individual to make that choice.

Let's get to the basic components of sealers and shed some light on the inner workings.

Rod!~

[PressurePros 249]

All of my posts were left in tact, thank you for that.

SealMaxx in 07!

[plainpainter 217]

I make my own stain: 50% boiled linseed oil, 50% turpentine, I throw in an 1/8 cup of copper pentrahydrate - some pigment, a little wax - and I am good to go!

[seymore 90]

I make my own stain: 50% boiled linseed oil, 50% turpentine, I throw in an 1/8 cup of copper pentrahydrate - some pigment, a little wax - and I am good to go!

YIKES LINSEED OIL !!! You better hope your humidity is not real HIGH cause the mildew will have a feast!!!

I would feel safer with a proven product that making an unknown stain.How are you gonna sell that to your customer??

[PressurePros 249]

Shane, thats what the copper pentahydrate is for. Dan is a mad scientist when it comes to home brews. Considering standards in the northeast call for like 5% VOC's though.. hey what the heck, you aren't selling it. Linseed oil actually makes a better sealer IMO.

Dan, how will you answer when people ask you what you are putting on their deck?

[Grime Dawg 14]

How about we all get together with Rhino and see if they will come up with some great 'wood colors' and some wood 'grain stamps'?

We'll just spray Rhino on all the decks in all the world and everyone will be happy for ever more!

NAH

It's much to fun watching you guys fight and then have mommy spank you and put you in seperate corners;)

Just kidding!

ME? I'll stick to my Minwax and Homer Formby Tung Oil.