Does Everyone Use Chemicals?

[AlanandLiz 14]

Hi, having read many threads on this site it appears that everyone uses chemicals of some description to achieve a quality end result. Here in Auckland, homes tend to get a lot of mold, mildew, lichen and blackspot particularly on the southern faces. As we don't like using chemicals - we have found that we can achieve an excellent result using a citrus detergent only but we do have to do a lot of scrubbing in heavily affected areas.

Research has shown us that using Sodium Hyperchloride as a housewash actually removes a microscopic layer of paint thereby weakening the paint. This seems to be counterproductive because the purpose behind washing exterior surfaces is generally to prolong the longevity of the paint. Have we got it wrong?

I would be really interested in your feedback on this topic and perhaps you could share your methods on how you can safely use bleach products.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

warm regards

Alanand Liz

AWL Professional Housewashing

[sflasealcoatinginc 14]

Well,

Ive washed many houses over and over using the same solution and never had any effect on the paint. However, to the argument of longevity of paint. Paint is not meant to last forever, and i guarentee even if a sodium hypochlorite solution removed a microscopic layer, leave mold and mildew on for a lengthy amount of time and it will do 10x more damage to the paint then housewash will.My .02

[plainpainter 217]

agreed.

[Jeff 232]

I think you are right SH will take some toll on paint over years, but by then its probably time for a paint job anyways. The use of SH to effectively remove mold & mildew outweighs the effect I rather have SH used and rinsed well, than have mold & mildew on the paint

Also scrubbing like you mention also takes its effect on a painted surface possibly more than the SH

SH is a corrosive, but used properly and rinsed well I feel its the best bet for cleaning mold & mildew

Is water good for cleaning? Not really water causes mold & mildew too. what is needed is a gas and i think they have something like a gas for mold redemption in homes & buildings

There is no perfect chem for everything but SH is the bomb

Its funny you say mold & mildew grows on the south side, mold & mildew over here grows on the north side 1st usually

JL

[PressurePros 249]

Jeff ask them in which way their toilet flushes and drains..

I use enviromentally and landscape friendly cleaners, detergents, surfactants and mildewcides.. never chemicals ;-)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

To use caustics for cleaning homes, you need to use a product that has corrosion inhibitors to avoid reacting with metals. As far as cleaning, the strength necessary to do the job is lower when using hot water to clean with ( <125*).

Rod!~

[AlanandLiz 14]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback. Please accept that this thread was not meant as a criticism of those who use SH. We were simply trying to utilise the collective wisdom of this group to establish whether there is a viable alternative to SH. The general persception of SH, from the customers perspective is that SH is a highly corrosive and dangerous chemical. This has come about largely due to the fact that the local cowboys (Splash and Dash Brigade) have created this perception by misusing the product. We have seen the result of this misuse by way of things like;

a) Expensive fish dying in a homeowners garden pond.

b) Plants and shrubbery killed off.

c) Animals having to be taken to the vet for expensive treatments due to having drunk from water puddles with SH residue in them.

We have a number of clients who will NOT allow the use of any chemicals on their properties. We do in fact utilise SH on extreme cases but we do not put it through our machines. When we do have to use it we brush it on in a heavily diluted form with a soft brush, rinse it off thoroughly and then rewash using our citrus detergent.

The other reason we don't use it more often is that we work with a number of house painters who chose us because of the fact that we use a biodegradeable detergent. They tell us that SH tends to leave a powdery residue on the surface which they then have to remove prior to painting.

Have any of you heard this from painters before?

PS. When we say we scrub, perhaps scrubbing is a harsh description. We use a very soft housewash brush to brush the affected areas - leave for five minutes or so and then rinse off thoroughly.

AlanandLiz

[StainlessDeal 16]

You use chemicals. We all use chemicals. Water is a chemical, your detergent certainly is composed of chemicals, and even your brushes are chemicals. Take it from us that chemicals will do the work better, and faster, with little to no impact unintended, if you just learn how.

SH residue is salt, pets won't drink enough to get sick. It will kill pondfish in high enough levels, as will seawater. Grass burning is preventable as is plant damage, especially if you properly set your customer's expectations.

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but time spent searching this site will remove your doubts. You will be the best cleaner about if you use the proper methods and chems, and learn to sell it as the best service available. You will also be able to do more jobs more profitably, and retire your brushes.

This is what Ken was alluding to above.

Welcome to The Grime Scene, we have members from around the world sharing their expertise, and look forward to hearing more from you here.

[Doug Dahlke 114]

The use of SH here in Georgia is a necessity. Lots of mold and mildew. If I had to hand apply it in every area on a house that needed it I would not be in this business. To date I have not had a customer complain about dead plants or sick pets. I have pets and use SH on my own house. Rinse plants well before applying chems and focus your spray on the house. On lower levels of a home I use a 6' wand and a chem tip. You can get very close to the wall and get a good ways up without getting too much stuff on the plants. Rinse thoroughly and you should be fine. I also do some painting. Today I am doing a stucco house that I washed a week ago and SH at about 1.5% was part of the mix. No residue on the house but I rinse well.

[AlanandLiz 14]

Thanks for the info folks. So if I understand you correctly the key is the level of dilution. We purchase the SH @ 12.5% and dilute it down 1Part SH to 10parts water. We have tried to mix it in a separate container with our Citrus detergent but this created a heat build-up and resulted in the container bulging out at the seams.

Any ideas on why this happens?

It's great to be able to discuss these issues as there is no such forum available here in NZ.

regards

AlanandLiz

[StainlessDeal 16]

What you are describing is a reaction between the chemicals in your detergent and the sodium hypochlorite. This is a very bad thing, because the bulging of your tank is the result of (probably chlorine) gas being shed from the mix. This can kill you and others around you, as well as cause a pressure explosion. The heat is a byproduct of the gas release, and can serve to accelerate the reaction, often exponentially.

The simple rule is to never mix acids and bases, they will react, quite often explosively. There are plenty of detergents available that mix well with hypochlorite, but I don't know what is available down there.

John Murrell is a member here that lives in Australia somewhere, maybe he can be of some help p[ointing you toward a supply outfit.

Of course, I couldn't help a Canadian very well, I suppose, so maybe this won't work. Some American outfits ship to Oz, but I'm not sure about to your neck of the woods.

I hope I'm not becoming less helpful as time passes!:eek: Keep asking questions, there are a lot of great people here to help.

I almost forgot, your dilution sounds a little weak, I try to get around 2-3% to the surface I'm cleaning. Yes, dilution makes a great difference.

Cheers!:cheers:

[PressurePros 249]

You are very lucky. There was a roof cleaner that was thrown 100 ft off a roof (I think he was killed) by mixing an acid with chlorine. Please learn your chemicals and look for a post entitled "chemical reactivity worksheet". The guy mentioned above was using a pump up sprayer and he blew a whole the size of a large meteor crater into the roof he was working on.

[PLD 14]

Thanks for the info folks. So if I understand you correctly the key is the level of dilution. We purchase the SH @ 12.5% and dilute it down 1Part SH to 10parts water.

Yes, dilution is key. I use a working solution of about 0.75% SH. That's about 1:15. Also, when you face a chemical averse customer, you need to educate them on the reality vs. the perception. The use of chemicals is sometimes MORE environmentally friendly. For example: I don't recommend injecting chemicals in ones body. However, a shot of penicillin is far more "natural" than letting your foot rot off from a nail puncture.

Similarly, bleach will bio-degrade MUCH faster than paint flakes. IMHO, after 30 years the soil surrounding a house with regular chemical cleanings will contain much less inorganic material than one with no chems and scrubbing. Did you know that bleach bio-degrades into NaCl (salt)? What does latex paint degrade into?

We have tried to mix it in a separate container with our Citrus detergent but this created a heat build-up and resulted in the container bulging out at the seams.

Any ideas on why this happens?

You must use a "bleach stable" soap. For example: Laundry soap is bleach stable, dish soap generally is not. Also, some chemicals that are bleach stable at 0-2% concentrations are not stable at 6-12%. It's just too hot of a mix.

It's great to be able to discuss these issues as there is no such forum available here in NZ.

Sure there is, www.thegrimescene.com! :) Isn't the virtual world great. Atlanta to Auckland in .003 seconds!

[RPetry 564]

Philip wisely tells us:

Did you know that bleach bio-degrades into NaCl (salt)?

Does anyone know what sodium hydroxide (NaOH) bio-degrades into?

[PLD 14]

Does anyone know what sodium hydroxide (NaOH) bio-degrades into?

That depends tremendously on what it reacts with, but absent fats and oils it generally forms some manner of a salt. In the presence of many fatty acids, it forms common soap.

[doublejager2000 14]

Alanand please show us what you use a link or what the citrus cleanier is made of ,, i mkinda thinking its something like i used in road construction to clean "tak",,the glue for the road.

[Classic_k 14]

We have a envirenmental cleaner with no butyls or acid in it. It will not hurt painted surfaces. I will be using it this week end to test it out to see what it does on one of my mothers houses. Here in Oregon we have lots of mold and mildew.

Thank You

classic_k

[PLD 14]

I know this is pretty negative,but...

Check the facts on what is in the products you buy. Most of the "environmentally friendly" crap that is sold is no more environmentally friendly that than the non-EF stuff. And, in many cases it is less so.

Also be especially wary of the "natural" label. For example: Turpentine is a forest by-product. Equipped with a pump-sprayer, a gallon of turpentine would kill about an acre of forest for years. The pesticide permethrin is manufactured from the crysanthenum (sp?) flower. A gallon ofpermethrin would kill enough bees that the flowers could not pollinate. It would also poison about 100 acres of lake.

[AlanandLiz 14]

The product we use is called "Good As Gold" which we purchase in 200 litre containers. I've attached a the technical data sheet for you to see. Let us know how this compares with youre product.

regards

AlanandLiz

goodasgoldes_techdata.pdf

[itswillist 14]

..... Somethings gota give .....

[john@AEC 37]

Hi Alan & Liz

I had a look at the data sheet for "Good As Gold" - the important line is the last one "Disinfectant - Quaternary Ammonium Chloride". You should get the MSDS to see if there are any other potentially dangerous chemicals.

"Quaternary ammonium chloride (didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride) - A flammable liquid. Corrosive. An irritant to the eyes, skin, upper respiratory tract. May cause central nervous system depression. Ingestion may cause pain, swelling, breathing difficulty, convulsions. Ammonium chloride is harmful to aquatic life in very low concentrations."

Your expending chemical tank is possibly due to a reaction between the Sodium Hypochlorite and the ammonium in the "Quaternary Ammonium Chloride".

This is listed on a data sheet for similar products.

"CHEMICAL DANGERS:

The substance decomposes on heating producing toxic and corrosive fumes including ammonia, chlorine and nitrogen oxides."

"Forms irritating cloramine gas when combined with chlorine-containing products. Fumes can cause irritation of the eyes, respiratory tract."

"Chlorine (including sodium hypochlorite,Clorox) - Strong oxidizer. Produces toxic chloramine gas when mixed with ammoniated cleaning products."

I wouldn't be mixing them together again, too dangerous. They do the same job - kill living things, so there really isn't any need to.

Stay safe